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Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

there's actually another post in this section discussing how to connect the power to the wheels. overall i think i've got the final design nailed down as much as i can till i get the turbines in my hands.

as for the timing of getting the turbines, it should be relatively soon. I've got a plane ticket for after i get back from the next chicago race to go out to washington state and learn all about the turbines.

overall i'm pretty stoked. i think the plan as-is will make for a reasonably easy to drive and relatively quick car.  it'll suck down fuel like it's going out of style but otherwise it should drive fairly normally.

177 (edited by Maxzillian 2012-09-24 08:01 PM)

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

dana_h_acdc wrote:

here is a gear down system that might be a short term idea:

a 4WD transmission driven from the outout in low range it would probably overheat in under a minute but it would be adjustable from 3:1 in high range and all the way to 15:1 (random guess) for low range

just saw this and got me thinking http://ocala.craigslist.org/ptd/3251228781.html

The biggest issue you may run into is that with the helical gear sets, the gears will all be running against the opposite thrust surface than they normally would. This may not be a big problem, but it's possible that there is minimal or no thrust surfaces for when the transmission is loaded through the output shaft.

Team Fall Guy Stuntman Association - 1989 Ford Escort - Gator-O-Rama Feb 2010

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Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Maxzillian wrote:

The biggest issue you may run into is that with the helical gear sets, the gears will all be running against the opposite thrust surface than they normally would. This may not be a big problem, but it's possible that there is minimal or no thrust surfaces for when the transmission is loaded through the output shaft.

unlike the radial engine, we're actually gearing down here so we're running on the regular drive direction of the components in question.

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

This should be covered by your "How not to kill yourself with a turbine engine" instructor, but just in case, don't open the ignitor box. It contains radioactive material and is only safe to handle intact. Part of the combustion chamber can also activate a radiation detector.

And ask your instructor to show you an ignitor firing. wink big_smile

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Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Wade.Moeller wrote:

This should be covered by your "How not to kill yourself with a turbine engine" instructor, but just in case, don't open the ignitor box. It contains radioactive material and is only safe to handle intact. Part of the combustion chamber can also activate a radiation detector.

And ask your instructor to show you an ignitor firing. wink big_smile

you've piqued my curriosity. what part of the ignitor is radioactive?

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

I'm not sure. The instructors just tell me not to open the box. Just replace it if defective.

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Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Wade.Moeller wrote:

I'm not sure. The instructors just tell me not to open the box. Just replace it if defective.

ok, that's good to know.

I'll try to figure it out without opening the box smile. but i would not be surprised if this isn't the case in my engine since it's quite small and probably has a different ignition design than engines designed with the idea that lives are on the line if the system fails.

either way, thanks for the heads up, I appreciate tips on how not to kill myself smile

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Very interesting.  There's not a ton out there about it but from the straight dope message board I found this:

"Radioactive material is sometimes used in turbine engine ignition systems, normally cesium-barium 137 or krypton-85."

in a discussion about whether a helicopter crash has hazardous waste.  There's also a Honeywell page that refers to the igniter in one of their engines having krypton-85.

Quad4 CRX - Wartburg 311 - Civic Wagovan - Parnelli Jones Galaxie - LS400 - Lancia MR2 - Boat - Sentra - 56 Ford Victoria
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Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

according to wikipedia:

"The sealed spark gap assemblies contained in ignition excitors used in some older turbine/jet engines contain a very small amount of krypton-85 in order to obtain consistent ionization levels and uniform operation. The amount of radiation from the average gap is approximately the same as that of a radium-dial wrist watch but should be handled carefully."

neat!

185 (edited by dculberson 2012-10-01 11:58 AM)

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

And in the meantime I found that back in the day there were spark plugs with polonium 210 in them!?  That is the stuff that was used to assassinate Litvinenko back in 2006.  Testing showed that the plugs made a positive difference but only lasted about 30 days due to decay / etc.  Radioactive spark plugs.  What a crazy world.

Picture of the plugs:

http://www.theodoregray.com/periodictab … x.s12.html

Quad4 CRX - Wartburg 311 - Civic Wagovan - Parnelli Jones Galaxie - LS400 - Lancia MR2 - Boat - Sentra - 56 Ford Victoria
Known Associate of 3pedal Mafia, Speedycop, and the Russians.  Maybe even NSF.

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Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

dculberson wrote:

And in the meantime I found that back in the day there were spark plugs with polonium 210 in them!?  That is the stuff that was used to assassinate Litvinenko back in 2006.  Testing showed that the plugs made a positive difference but only lasted about 30 days due to decay / etc.  Radioactive spark plugs.  What a crazy world.

Picture of the plugs:

http://www.theodoregray.com/periodictab … x.s12.html

NEAT!

on another neat note, i ran across this the other day: http://www.validate.net/turbine/

i talked to Steve, the guy that built it and got some really good feedback from him. very friendly but he's since sold it and moved so i can't go do some rough dyno tests on it. oh well, the info he gave me is still great since few people have experience with this motor pushing a variable load and being throttled.

the key points he gave me as feedback:
1)the motor throttles a decent load from 60% rpm and up. much wider than initially expected that means it makes enough power to use between 32,000 and 54,000RPM
2)the motor puts out less power than i expected. he did not dyno it, but given the hull and the prop, he says the motor makes about 75hp.

there were other things said, but nothing else that affects the discussion here.

The really good thing to take away is that this power through a snowmobile CVT with a 3.5:1 ratio between hi and low and geared for a maximum speed of 110mph it can start pushing at 19mph. much better than initially expected.

it also means that i can target a lower RPM while doing the initial testing say even as low as 80% to ensure i have a safe system that prevents overspeeding. when i'm sure it all works i can crank it up closer to 100%

the other thing is that 75hp per turbine is about  half of the power that i was wanting. i'm going to have to give this some thought if i want a lighter chassis or a slightly bigger pony motor to hit the 10lb/hp target to have a car that can keep up with the front of the Lemons pack between refuelings (it still won't be competitive overall, but it'll be fun to drive).

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Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

i know there are probably people waiting for an update. this project is far from dead smile

I'm off to washington state this weekend to go get trained on how to not kill myself with a gas turbine. once the weekend is over the turbines will be shipped my way and i'll have them within a few weeks.

expect video of the turbines running with the gen-set controller sometime next week.

I've also been hunting for a piston engine for the car, i've got a few good ideas but i'm waiting to have the turbines in my hand to get an exact size before i move on with that.

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Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Whats this training stuff.  wink

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Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

BoB wrote:

Whats this training stuff.  wink

if you had a pair of motors spinning at 54,000RPMs, you may see it as a good idea to understand how they work a bit first smile

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Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

I hope they have the introduce yourself to the class part of training just so you can explain what you are going to do with the engines.

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191

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

oh, it's not that kind of class. it's a one on one with a guy that's worked on these his entire career.

this guy: http://www.turbinefun.com/

so putting turbines where they do not belong isn't that unusual for him smile

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Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

sorry i cannot post any pictures with today's post. i don't have my web-server stuff setup on my laptop while i'm here.

but i did set sight on my new tiernay tt-10 turbines. we even started one of them today and i must say. it's impressive how drama free it was. hit the switch and about 2seconds later it's fully spooled up and running.

so the previous guy i heard from that said it took over 10seconds to spool up sounds a bit fishy. not sure what's going on there.

also, they are ridiculously tiny. to the point where I'm fairly certain i could fit in my carry on luggage

the other good news is they are coming with a bunch of bits i wasn't expecting like the generator (great to snag a spline from) and exhaust diffusers which are likely made from fancy stainless or inconel.

the other thing i learnt today is a T58 is TINY. 1400HP and only about 4' long. maybe i should have gotten a T58 instead?

and finally, fuel. he's running the turbines on strait kerosene right now. he runs his boat on strait diesel so fueling will be way simpler then Jet-A at worse and at best, strait diesel is even easier than kerosene.

the only bad news is the sound. it's a bit loud.

i'll try to get a video tomorrow of the turbine starting. it's great!

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Crazy... So 20 laps... right?  wink

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

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Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

TeamLemon-aid wrote:

Crazy... So 20 laps... right?  wink

i'm going to go out on a ledge here and say that the only thing that will stop this thing from finishing the race will be if my supply tanker gets held up and does not make it to the track. i'm projecting to use about 200-250 gallons of fuel during the race.

maybe not it's first one, but this thing *will* finish a race under jet power (finishing under power of the pony motor only does not count)

at which point, it'll get called reliable, get plates and get driven around on the street! smile

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Marc wrote:

also, they are ridiculously tiny. to the point where I'm fairly certain i could fit in my carry on luggage

The TSA is going to love it.   NOT!   smile

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196

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

there's good and bad from yesterday:

the good is that one turbine is fully tested out and we found proper specs for the safe operation of the turbine, instead of the turbine/genset combination i had found before.

the turbine is rated to 1250F output which means it can take a fair bit more fuel than it does in it's current application. this should help quite a bit.

all of the operating parameters are worked out from simple things like oil pressure to what a specific frequency on the speed signal means for turbine speed.

the bad from yesterday is that the 2nd turbine seems to have some kind of blade damage. we can't see it yet but it does not want to properly contain the flame which means there's not enough air coming through for the given RPM which results in the computer overfueling. i may be able to use a different fueling curve and still use the motor but at a minimum it will produce less horsepower than the other one.

and finally, i can't hear you over the sound of my dual 5" exhaust smile
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase3/IMG_0032.jpg

smile

197

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

well, good news. we got the 2nd turbine running after some minor work.

sorry i wasn't able to get good video, but i'll get some good video when i get them home in a week or two.

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Just in case you blow up just one during the race, here is an idea for the remaining good one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1uwjmVrR6U

All you need is a PortAPotty, a racing go cart frame, and a turboshaft engine.

199

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

nah, this is what you do with the other one if the first fails: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWnalAsbpT8

200

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

I just ran across something i had seen years before but for some reason never thought of during the initial part of this project.

the Garrett JFS-100. http://www.gasturbine.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/jfs100.htm

it's 90HP at the right RPM, has a seperate power turbine, a clutch and a gear reduction already. the output RPM is 3300RPM which is a smidgen low but usable with the right rear end ratio.

the exhaust is even already directed upwards and the intake is easy to add plumbing to.

I'm not changing the course of action at this point, but i will be taking a look at all the costs of all the custom bits i need to make to determine if this would be cheaper. if it is, it's a no brainer.

meanwhile, the rav-4 transfer case stuff would still be usefull for this layout so i will keep working on that.