Topic: Engine swappers: I need engine advice for a '41 Plymouth road racer

http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/11/1941-Plymouth-Engine-Swap-picture-courtesy-of-Murilee-Martin.jpg

So, I bought a 1941 Plymouth Special Deluxe sedan yesterday, and I'm hiring engineer and freako hot-rodder RichVS of Rocket Surgery Racing Renault 4CV fame to do the fabrication on a modern suspension/drivetrain swap on it. It's going to be built with a Lemons philosophy in mind, though on a higher (but not ridiculous) budget. While we're pretty sure about where we're going with the suspension (more on that later), we still haven't decided on an engine/transmission combo for the car, though the top contenders that fit the budget are a Chrysler 5.9 Magnum/NV3500 5-speed setup or a GM LT1/T-56 6-speed combo. My requirements are quite strict, because the plan is to run this car at Pikes Peak and maybe La Carrera someday. If you'd care to join the discussion and offer advice (or, better still, let me know where you know of the perfect donor vehicle, preferably within one time zone of Denver), read the Question of the Day, with all the details, that I posted over on TTAC a few minutes ago. Good advice or info on tracking down parts will be considered an excellent bribe by the justices of the Lemons Supreme Court.

Oh yeah, and I'm not touching the paint. It took 46 years of sitting in a High Plains field to get that patina.

2 (edited by Drdanteiii 2012-11-29 12:48 PM)

Re: Engine swappers: I need engine advice for a '41 Plymouth road racer

I'd go the LT1 route with the t56.  The mag 5.9 and the nv3500 are good parts, but they are truck parts and perform accordingly.  IIRC the ratios on the nv3500 are a little wider, and probably not as conducive to road racing as the t56.  Not to mention that the LT1 gets you 275 to 300hp right out of hte box and the 5.9 magnum gets you 245hp at best.  Most likely you'd be looking at a 5.2 with 225-230hp

It comes down to this:  Are you building it to be driven more like a dodge dakota pickup or a camaro?

The Roto-Racer '89 Merkur:  If it ain't rusting, It ain't racing.

'14 Real Hoopties of NJ: Judges Choice

Re: Engine swappers: I need engine advice for a '41 Plymouth road racer

Here is a complete donor for not much more than you will pay for a good T56 tranny itself.

http://raleigh.craigslist.org/cto/3433746646.html

Something like this is your low cost option for a drivetrain.

Re: Engine swappers: I need engine advice for a '41 Plymouth road racer

Drdanteiii wrote:

It comes down to this:  Are you building it to be driven more like a dodge dakota pickup or a camaro?

In other words, do I plan to haul barrels of red phosphorus to my meth lab or run over pedestrians while doing Jack Daniels-enhanced donuts in the Circle K parking lot? Tough call!

Re: Engine swappers: I need engine advice for a '41 Plymouth road racer

I know it's sacrilege to talk about non-Mopar engines in a Plymouth, but I'd say the LT1 would be an ideal fit.  Find some old wrecked Camaro/ Firebird and pull the good bits.  Just watch out for the Optispark.

Tunachuckers: 15 Years of Effluency
'08 - '10: 1966 Volvo 122, "Charlie"
'10 - '18: 1975 Ford LTD Landau --> 2018 - current: Converted into 1950 "Plymford"
'22 - current: 1967 Volvo 122, "Charlie ]["

Re: Engine swappers: I need engine advice for a '41 Plymouth road racer

Judge Phil wrote:
Drdanteiii wrote:

It comes down to this:  Are you building it to be driven more like a dodge dakota pickup or a camaro?

In other words, do I plan to haul barrels of red phosphorus to my meth lab or run over pedestrians while doing Jack Daniels-enhanced donuts in the Circle K parking lot? Tough call!

You're in Colorado, STi swap. They do make rwd kits.

Re: Engine swappers: I need engine advice for a '41 Plymouth road racer

Judge Phil wrote:
Drdanteiii wrote:

It comes down to this:  Are you building it to be driven more like a dodge dakota pickup or a camaro?

In other words, do I plan to haul barrels of red phosphorus to my meth lab or run over pedestrians while doing Jack Daniels-enhanced donuts in the Circle K parking lot? Tough call!


LMAO.  Well played.

The Roto-Racer '89 Merkur:  If it ain't rusting, It ain't racing.

'14 Real Hoopties of NJ: Judges Choice

Re: Engine swappers: I need engine advice for a '41 Plymouth road racer

Another good option in the SBC family would be a 6 liter LQ4 or LQ9 out of the early 2000's GM 2500 trucks.  They were available from the general with manual gearboxes, but those may be tough to find.  The LQ motors themselves are becoming relatively cheap these days whereas the LS engine series is still commanding a premium because of the lightweight aluminum block.  Going this route would give you all the benefits of an LS motor (minus the weight...the LQ motors have iron blocks), but at a fraction of the price.  Third gen small block chevy motors are very swap friendly, and have an ECU that's got a lot of aftermarket tuning options.

Sorry For Party Racing! - 1985 Pontiac Firebird - Car #35

A race car exists only in two states: broken or in the process of becoming that way.

Re: Engine swappers: I need engine advice for a '41 Plymouth road racer

What about a 5.3 LS motor. They are cheap to get, easy to find, can convert to carb easy, has 270 to 300 hp out the box and can be hopped up with a cam swap.

Byte Marks Racing - "You knew the job was dangerous when you took it Fred."
1992 Nissan 240SX DM Edition (Drift Master)

Re: Engine swappers: I need engine advice for a '41 Plymouth road racer

Hell, the garden variety 5.3L GM truck motor is good for 300-ish HP, although I don't know what options there are for manual trans.

The Homer: Powerful like a gorilla, yet soft and yielding like a Nerf ball.

11 (edited by coolhand454 2012-11-29 01:35 PM)

Re: Engine swappers: I need engine advice for a '41 Plymouth road racer

Did not read the requirements sad

Still, you can us the 5.3 with the Camaro/Corvette style intake and Painless should have a wiring harness.

If not, I will go with the LT1.

Byte Marks Racing - "You knew the job was dangerous when you took it Fred."
1992 Nissan 240SX DM Edition (Drift Master)

Re: Engine swappers: I need engine advice for a '41 Plymouth road racer

According to the interwebs, GM put both the NV 4500 5-speed and the ZF S6-650 six-speed in trucks with LQ motors.  The NV 4500 is probably the better choice for this application.  Both trannies have the same final gear ratio, but the six speed option has a crawler gear.

Sorry For Party Racing! - 1985 Pontiac Firebird - Car #35

A race car exists only in two states: broken or in the process of becoming that way.

Re: Engine swappers: I need engine advice for a '41 Plymouth road racer

I am getting increasingly interested in the Vortec 5.3/5.7/6.0 V8s, which are cheap, plentiful, and powerful, but still having a tough time figuring out manual-trans options, not to mention making the engine computer happy without the slushbox it expects to see. I might go with Megasquirt, but I'd prefer to master that technology with my 318 Dodge van before trying it on this much bigger project-- there's enough stuff to go wrong without adding engine-control hassles to the mix.

Re: Engine swappers: I need engine advice for a '41 Plymouth road racer

I did some quick reading and it looks like you can get the ECM flashed to ignore the auto tranny stuff on the Vortec ECMs.

This site indicates they can do it:
http://www.pcmperformance.com/programming.html

Re: Engine swappers: I need engine advice for a '41 Plymouth road racer

http://www.f150forum.com/attachments/f13/4387d1238467462t-fuel-injected-4-9-engine-swap-into-1977-f150-ford-engine-swap-028.jpg

http://www.f150forum.com/attachments/f13/4394d1238468067t-fuel-injected-4-9-engine-swap-into-1977-f150-ford-engine-swap-004.jpg

Take off the top half of the intake and get a more vintage friendly plenum (the so called "fire extinguisher" shape) welded to the runners, then remount the dual throat to it. Stock they made 165hp, but with only 8.8:1 compression. With headers, a cam, and some head work I imagine you can make 250hp pretty easy, plus it can look vintage correct, if you hide the wiring.

Constructor/Owner/Driver - Billy Beer Ford Futura

Re: Engine swappers: I need engine advice for a '41 Plymouth road racer

Drdanteiii wrote:

I'd go the LT1 route with the t56.  The mag 5.9 and the nv3500 are good parts, but they are truck parts and perform accordingly.  IIRC the ratios on the nv3500 are a little wider, and probably not as conducive to road racing as the t56.  Not to mention that the LT1 gets you 275 to 300hp right out of hte box and the 5.9 magnum gets you 245hp at best.  Most likely you'd be looking at a 5.2 with 225-230hp

It comes down to this:  Are you building it to be driven more like a dodge dakota pickup or a camaro?

As the owner of a Dakota 5.9 R/T, the answer is "YES" .


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ubBW3Igh-ow/UK-HtYf8BUI/AAAAAAAAA3c/0vljSayenS8/s1600/burnout2.jpg

Loads of fun in the twisties, gobs of  torque and power in all the right places. A few simple mods away from being a real monster right out of the box. Plus the indestructibility of a @#$% cockroach. Not to mention dirt cheap (i.e. overlooked in junkyards).

You can get a lot more than 245 out of them with some simple home-brewed mad-scientist ingenuity. A LOT more.

Drive it like a Dakota, definitely.

"Real ZomBees prefer Bacon"
IOE(x2) MGB/SAAB 96, Judge's Choice, Class C Win, & 2011 Hooniverse Car of the Year!
MRolla, Stick Figure/Animal House, Free Range MR2, SAAB Sonett, "The Death Flip"
2008 Exoskeleton Jag Fiasco, Concours d Lemons - Rue Britannia, worse British car.

Re: Engine swappers: I need engine advice for a '41 Plymouth road racer

TrackGeeks_Chris wrote:

Here is a complete donor for not much more than you will pay for a good T56 tranny itself.

http://raleigh.craigslist.org/cto/3433746646.html

Something like this is your low cost option for a drivetrain.

Or this one with only 57k and $1,500...

http://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/viewt … p?id=19561

Speedycop/NSF Racing /Pinewood Dirtbags
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Re: Engine swappers: I need engine advice for a '41 Plymouth road racer

One of these will drop right in:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IDyjJIjXeHc/TjndaI2ssBI/AAAAAAAAECo/Q1CbfgCbYU0/s1600/500502186_sSzF6-L.jpg

and it meets all of your requirements except #4.   In compensation, however, it would be a thing of great beauty.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally

Re: Engine swappers: I need engine advice for a '41 Plymouth road racer

Dear Phil:

It is time to take your own LeMony advice for a change.

/6

Love, Pat.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: Engine swappers: I need engine advice for a '41 Plymouth road racer

It's hard to find a 360 with the 5speed, but there's a decent # of 318's and 5speed combo's out there.  Throw a new cam and a set of slightly shined up EQ heads on there and you've got 300 hp.  If the budget allows, you could throw a 4inch stroker crank in there and now you've got 390 cubes but that would probably(almost certainly) exceed the capacity of the factory EFI system.  S/F.....Ken M

Re: Engine swappers: I need engine advice for a '41 Plymouth road racer

If I were building this car to race in Lemons, I'd keep the original flathead six in it.

22 (edited by novaderrik 2012-11-29 07:33 PM)

Re: Engine swappers: I need engine advice for a '41 Plymouth road racer

Judge Phil wrote:

I am getting increasingly interested in the Vortec 5.3/5.7/6.0 V8s, which are cheap, plentiful, and powerful, but still having a tough time figuring out manual-trans options, not to mention making the engine computer happy without the slushbox it expects to see. I might go with Megasquirt, but I'd prefer to master that technology with my 318 Dodge van before trying it on this much bigger project-- there's enough stuff to go wrong without adding engine-control hassles to the mix.

a manual trans is easy to do behind any LS engine- you can get a T56 out of a 98-02 F body, 04-06 GTO, or Pontiac G8 and it all bolts right up like it was meant to be there- flywheel and everything.

it's also stupid easy to bolt up any trans that is meant for an old school small block with a certain flywheel (i think 99-01 6.0 truck) and throwout bearing (i think the one from a 98-02 F body with an LS1..) and a bellhousing that will clear the 14" flywheel.
so you could run anything from a 3 speed Saginaw with the shifter on the column (3 on the tree- whee!!) to a Saginaw 4 seed, Muncie M20, M21, M22, or Super T10.. or if you like overdrive and don't mind changing transmissions every once in a while a T5 out of an 80's F body.. Ford toploaders are also an option with a special pilot busing and clutch disc, or you could keep it in the Mopar family and put an A833 overdrive in it..

the computer is almost as easy to deal with- just get LS1Edit and a laptop and remove the auto trans parameters from it..

23 (edited by tSoG 2012-11-29 08:28 PM)

Re: Engine swappers: I need engine advice for a '41 Plymouth road racer

5.9 12v cummins nv4500.

it has as much potential to earn the loathing, and/or veneration of EVERYONE at the same time, as absolutely every other choice. combined.

provenance? check.
wrong in every way? check.
tire burning potential? check.
potential fuel economy of modern hybrid? check.
manual transmission offered? check.
fuel injection? of course it does.
the power to tow a trailer vastly larger than is even remotely safe? check.
roll coal? check.

dead rabbit society: cultured 'n shit.

Re: Engine swappers: I need engine advice for a '41 Plymouth road racer

The cummins is sexy in it's frame distorting mass & power sort of way.
But the Atlas inline 6 from a trailblazer.bravada/9-7x is the way to go.  It's physicaly a little large to fit in most cars, but will fit in this hood just fine.
All aluminum, 300HP stock.  More power with a chip.  Much mores with a turbo.

Though the 6 was not available w/ a manual, the manual trans (NV3500) from the modular 5 & 4cyl atlas engines will bolt up.

GM EFI architecture is easily reflashed to ignore the loss of auto trans, catalysts, rear O2 sensors, VSS, etc.

Jim C.
If God meant for us to race, we'd all have baggy Nomex skin.
08TMS.09NL.10GM, SP, NL.11SP, NL.12SP, VIR, NL.13GM, NJ.14NJ, VIR, WGI.15AB.16GM.17NCM.18GM.19...

25

Re: Engine swappers: I need engine advice for a '41 Plymouth road racer

Phil I took the 6 out of a 1951 Chrysler.  I gave it away.  it ran perfect.  If the guy hasn't used it maybe he'll give it back to me.

I'll  let you know.

This space for rent.