• From: NH
  • Registered: 2010-01-20
  • Posts: 3,299

Topic: School me on fuel cells.

I'm finally considering a fuel cell since we only get ~11 usable gallons in the daytona. I'm looking at the 22gallon tank in the Lemons store.

I'm truly a noob when it comes to this stuff since i've never looked into it before. so bear with my many questions.

What do I need in addition to the tank? I'd order the tank with the sender installed. From there, do you typically do an in tank or inline pump? Do most people go with the ATL in tank surge tank and fuel pump combo? If you do go inline are there conventions for how far away from the tank the pump typically goes?

What else is needed after that? Vent tubes?

Sorry if most of this is covered, I didn't see a comprehensive beginners guide to fuel cells when I was looking.

I'm not worried about mounting. I've seen the frames that most people build for them and i'm comfortable making that.

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  • Baron
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Re: School me on fuel cells.

We did this recently in the 'mont. We got the Lemons 22gal sport cell, and had the surge tank installed at the factory.

We installed a 255l/h walbro inline pump off a 90 an fitting and then ran a line to the fuel filter under the floor. The car has a return style system, and this keeps it nice and happy until 15-16 gallons are used. Best we can tell, the cell will only hold 19 gallons. ATL suggested we plumb an electric pickup pump at a corner or two to feed the surge tank to help get the fuel into the pickup when we get a bit low. We are going to try to make something work before our next race.

The other thing we are going to plub in will be a sample port after the fuel pump, so that we can drain the cell between races. The foam will start coming apart from the e10 fuel. Even then, the paperwork I got from ATL says to replace the foam every two years.

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  • From: Austin Texas
  • Registered: 2013-01-06
  • Posts: 293

Re: School me on fuel cells.

Baron wrote:

We did this recently in the 'mont. We got the Lemons 22gal sport cell, and had the surge tank installed at the factory.

We installed a 255l/h walbro inline pump off a 90 an fitting and then ran a line to the fuel filter under the floor. The car has a return style system, and this keeps it nice and happy until 15-16 gallons are used. Best we can tell, the cell will only hold 19 gallons. ATL suggested we plumb an electric pickup pump at a corner or two to feed the surge tank to help get the fuel into the pickup when we get a bit low. We are going to try to make something work before our next race.

The other thing we are going to plub in will be a sample port after the fuel pump, so that we can drain the cell between races. The foam will start coming apart from the e10 fuel. Even then, the paperwork I got from ATL says to replace the foam every two years.

Yes do this...^^^^^ 
I drain gas, sometimes run the ethanol treatment stuff but it will eat the foam.  When you see it start to go, replace it all or you'll have plenty of issues with that foam in pumps/filters/hoses...etc...  I got 3 years out of the first foam, and it's not cheap BTW so if you find a good source please let me know.

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4 Reply by TheEngineer (edited by TheEngineer 2013-05-14 02:04 PM)

  • From: NH
  • Registered: 2010-01-20
  • Posts: 3,299

Re: School me on fuel cells.

Digging around ATL's site, i did see that they offer "alcohol" foam. Which i can only assume is foam designed to work with the alcohol in the fuel now. I"m sure it's expensive, but i wonder if you can order the cell with that through the Lemons store?

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  • From: Corona, CA.
  • Registered: 2009-08-03
  • Posts: 359

Re: School me on fuel cells.

TheEngineer wrote:

I'm finally considering a fuel cell since we only get ~11 usable gallons in the daytona.

Just out of curiosity, how long is your driving stint on those 11 gallons? I have an '87 Shelby Lancer that may become a Lemons car in the future, but one of my concerns is fuel economy/stint length.

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Re: School me on fuel cells.

Baron, does your fuel return line dump back into the surge container,?  It will up the fuel temp a bit in the surge tank but shouldnt matter much. Dumping the fuel return in the surge tank could help a bunch unless your car can make use of all of that 255lph.   Getting a smaller fuel pump sized for what you need wont empty the surge tank as quickly, but dumping the returned fuel back in the surge tank gets around that anyways.

The corner scavenge pumps can go bad from fuel starving. Unfortunately using them to help scavenge whatever fuel they can will end up with them failing on you when they're running dry.  If you go this way see if you can have the scavenge pumps on their own fuse so it doesnt take out the main pump if they fail.

I had a fuel cell all planned out for our car with a pretty trick fuel pump/pickup but the whole E10 eating foam is giving me 2nd thoughts about it.

-Killer B's (as in rally) '84 4000Q 4.2V8. Audis never win?
  • From: Tustin, CA
  • Registered: 2010-12-30
  • Posts: 3,275

Re: School me on fuel cells.

TheEngineer wrote:

Digging around ATL's site, i did see that they offer "alcohol" foam. Which i can only assume is foam designed to work with the alcohol in the fuel now. I"m sure it's expensive, but i wonder if you can order the cell with that through the Lemons store?

I'd make sure that it's foam intended for gas/ethanol mixes and not pure methanol as those are different animals.

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8 Reply by hotdogwater (edited by hotdogwater 2013-05-14 03:51 PM)

  • From: Austin Texas
  • Registered: 2013-01-06
  • Posts: 293

Re: School me on fuel cells.

cheseroo wrote:

I'd make sure that it's foam intended for gas/ethanol mixes and not pure methanol as those are different animals.

That would be my bet, lots of drag guys run alcohol on their way to nitro.

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  • Baron
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Re: School me on fuel cells.

jrbe wrote:

Baron, does your fuel return line dump back into the surge container,?  It will up the fuel temp a bit in the surge tank but shouldnt matter much. Dumping the fuel return in the surge tank could help a bunch unless your car can make use of all of that 255lph.   Getting a smaller fuel pump sized for what you need wont empty the surge tank as quickly, but dumping the returned fuel back in the surge tank gets around that anyways.

The corner scavenge pumps can go bad from fuel starving. Unfortunately using them to help scavenge whatever fuel they can will end up with them failing on you when they're running dry.  If you go this way see if you can have the scavenge pumps on their own fuse so it doesnt take out the main pump if they fail.

I had a fuel cell all planned out for our car with a pretty trick fuel pump/pickup but the whole E10 eating foam is giving me 2nd thoughts about it.

It looks that way, that was my first thought, so i tried to look when we were messing with it. I will have to pop the top to see for sure.

We use a bunch of fuel, the 32v 4.6 is pretty thirsty.

We've also considered an in tank pump feeding a larger fuel filter and then the in line ahead of that.

Team Lost in the Dark
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  • From: NH
  • Registered: 2010-01-20
  • Posts: 3,299

Re: School me on fuel cells.

cheseroo wrote:
TheEngineer wrote:

Digging around ATL's site, i did see that they offer "alcohol" foam. Which i can only assume is foam designed to work with the alcohol in the fuel now. I"m sure it's expensive, but i wonder if you can order the cell with that through the Lemons store?

I'd make sure that it's foam intended for gas/ethanol mixes and not pure methanol as those are different animals.

that would make more sense. As i said, this is my first time really digging into fuel cells, so i'm on the steep learning curve.

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  • From: NH
  • Registered: 2010-01-20
  • Posts: 3,299

Re: School me on fuel cells.

widgetsltd wrote:
TheEngineer wrote:

I'm finally considering a fuel cell since we only get ~11 usable gallons in the daytona.

Just out of curiosity, how long is your driving stint on those 11 gallons? I have an '87 Shelby Lancer that may become a Lemons car in the future, but one of my concerns is fuel economy/stint length.

We're burning about 5 gallons an hour at reduced boost. Which means that every 2 hours we need to refuel right now. I assume once we turn the boost up that will go down a bit more.

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  • jrbe
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  • Registered: 2009-06-23
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Re: School me on fuel cells.

Baron wrote:
jrbe wrote:

Baron, does your fuel return line dump back into the surge container,?  It will up the fuel temp a bit in the surge tank but shouldnt matter much. Dumping the fuel return in the surge tank could help a bunch unless your car can make use of all of that 255lph.   Getting a smaller fuel pump sized for what you need wont empty the surge tank as quickly, but dumping the returned fuel back in the surge tank gets around that anyways.

The corner scavenge pumps can go bad from fuel starving. Unfortunately using them to help scavenge whatever fuel they can will end up with them failing on you when they're running dry.  If you go this way see if you can have the scavenge pumps on their own fuse so it doesnt take out the main pump if they fail.

I had a fuel cell all planned out for our car with a pretty trick fuel pump/pickup but the whole E10 eating foam is giving me 2nd thoughts about it.

It looks that way, that was my first thought, so i tried to look when we were messing with it. I will have to pop the top to see for sure.

We use a bunch of fuel, the 32v 4.6 is pretty thirsty.

We've also considered an in tank pump feeding a larger fuel filter and then the in line ahead of that.

Look at what some of the oem's are doing. They use a pump in a swirl/surge pot and use a venturi to suck fuel in. There are fuel pressure requirements that make this style tough to use.

There are also the vertical fuel filters that have an outlet at the top. Have an inline pump suck off the bottom, fuel rail return into the top, a return to the tank at the top, and fe in by an in tank pump. I think speedway has a good "fuel filter" that is a filter but also doubles as a swirl pot.

-Killer B's (as in rally) '84 4000Q 4.2V8. Audis never win?
  • From: Houston, TX
  • Registered: 2011-05-13
  • Posts: 424

Re: School me on fuel cells.

jrbe wrote:

Look at what some of the oem's are doing. They use a pump in a swirl/surge pot and use a venturi to suck fuel in. There are fuel pressure requirements that make this style tough to use.

There are also the vertical fuel filters that have an outlet at the top. Have an inline pump suck off the bottom, fuel rail return into the top, a return to the tank at the top, and fe in by an in tank pump. I think speedway has a good "fuel filter" that is a filter but also doubles as a swirl pot.

I vaguely recall TEO giving a thumbs-down to something like that in the past, so I would strongly recommend clearing it with him beforehand, else you may find yourself having to do emergency fuel system surgery in order to be allowed on the track.

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  • jrbe
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Re: School me on fuel cells.

teo doesn't want external swirl pots or messing with an oe fuel system. If it's in a fuel cell, and it is part of an oem pump assembly I don't think he'd have a problem with it.

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  • From: Houston, TX
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Re: School me on fuel cells.

jrbe wrote:

teo doesn't want external swirl pots or messing with an oe fuel system. If it's in a fuel cell, and it is part of an oem pump assembly I don't think he'd have a problem with it.

Oh, yeah, I was thinking you were talking about putting one of those things outside the cell.  Inside the cell, I wouldn't think it would be a problem.

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2012 and 2013 - Lemons didn't fit into our schedule
2014 - Heaps in the Heart of Texas