1 (edited by SlowMotionFire 2015-09-20 07:25 PM)

Topic: MN12 Lemons Teams: Speed How Have You Achieved It?

We run the 814 Nothin's Hotter Than a Cougar 4.6L Cougar in the Midwest region (for teams worried about competition). We have cut springs, increased negative camber, and are running the widest tires we can fit on our rims, we are starting to get the car to handle.  Yet we are getting killed on acceleration exiting the corners. We have thrown around ideas about shift kits, (reputable and shade tree) different rear gearing, manual transmission swaps ($$$). What have other MN12 teams done, what has worked and what hasn't?

#814, Nothin's Hotter Than A Cougar Racing, 1996 Mercury Cougar XR7

2 (edited by DelinquentRacer 2015-09-20 10:32 PM)

Re: MN12 Lemons Teams: Speed How Have You Achieved It?

I've not raced the platform, but I know a little about Fords.
Most likely you have 3.27 or taller gears. You need to find an 8.8
3.73 or 3.90 gear set with a trac-lok and transplant them into your diff.
At this point, 8.8 stuff is pretty available used. F150's are a good source for gears and trac-looks.

BTW pretty much all of the P71 Crown Vic's run auto trans, so that's not the problem.

Capt. Delinquent Racing
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Re: MN12 Lemons Teams: Speed How Have You Achieved It?

I have found that knowing how to drive is a tremendous asset. No one on my team actually knows how to do that yet, but we are total killers on a motorcycle.

One of these days we might even take a lesson.

Re: MN12 Lemons Teams: Speed How Have You Achieved It?

DelinquentRacer wrote:

I've not raced the platform, but I know a little about Fords.
Most likely you have 3.27 or taller gears. You need to find an 8.8
3.73 or 3.90 gear set with a trac-lok and transplant them into your diff.
At this point, 8.8 stuff is pretty available used. F150's are a good source for gears and trac-looks.

BTW pretty much all of the P71 Crown Vic's run auto trans, so that's not the problem.

The cougar has the 8.8 IRS. My understanding has been that the differential differs from the 8.8 used in solid rear axles.

I feel like Ford kept their engineers busy by just having them change things for the sake of changing things.

#814, Nothin's Hotter Than A Cougar Racing, 1996 Mercury Cougar XR7

Re: MN12 Lemons Teams: Speed How Have You Achieved It?

He's talking about the internals to the rear, not the housing.

Silent But Deadly Racing-  Ricky Bobby's Laughing Clown Malt Liquor Thunderbird , Datsun 510, 87 Mustang (The Race Team Formerly Known as Prince), 72 Pinto Squire waggy, Parnelli Jones 67 Galaxie, Turbo Coupe Surf wagon.(The Surfin Bird), Squatting Dogs In Tracksuits,  Space Pants!  Roy Fuckin Kent and The tribute to a tribute to a tribute THUNDERBIRD/ SUNDAHBADOH!

6 (edited by gunn 2015-09-21 09:22 AM)

Re: MN12 Lemons Teams: Speed How Have You Achieved It?

We have a tbird we've been racing for several races now. it was perfectly reliable until we started getting greedy and messed with the engine.
Some thoughts:

1) Weight is your biggest enemy with this car. I went through and stripped everything I could (down to unused wires in the harness). With the V6, it was 3000LB with full fluids and no driver. With the 5.0, we are now at 3150LBs. I wish we could get to 2750LBs but even if we got stupidly cheaty and bought a tube frame front kmember, aluminum rear LCAs and diff housing from a Mark VIII, and an all aluminum 302 block & heads from a race shop, I don't think that's possible. There's simply too much car. OTOH, It's relatively safe given the vehicle's bulk (I have no idea how anyone straps themselves into a Mini Moke voluntarily).

2) It sounds like you have an 4r70w auto trans.
a) Read up on the JMOD -- the idea is that opens up some holes in the transmission valve body to lower the amount of heat transferred to the fluid at the expense of shift harshness. While you are in there, there are a few common wear items to replace (Pressure regulator valve, PRV solenoid) as well.
http://tccoa.com/articles/tranny/index.html
b) Install a bigass trans cooler. This can be done for free using your AC condensor. Ignore the naysayers who say that there will be too much of a pressure drop (we didn't see it).
c) Avoid WOT shifts from 3-4 as this will kill your trans. The simple solution for us before we swapped in a manual was to turn OD off.
http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=79692

3) The tbird 8.8 IRS is different from the diff found in the Mustangs BUT you can use the 8.8" Pinion & ring gears from a solid rear axle diff.
- If you can find one, you might wanna keep your existing one as a backup and then rebuild a second one with shorter gearing as your "race" diff. This diff is popular with the V8 Miata and IRS Cobra kitcar folks so you may find it easier to get a whole parts car to get these bits.
- We have 3.73:1 gears which make 1st gear kinda useless (very short) but it definitely woke the car up. I picked up these gears for cheap used ($30-60) and spent a few more bucks on the bearings/etc to rebuild the IRS.
- NOTE: the tractionLOK unit must come from an 8.8 IRS diff (most commonly found with tbird SC but was also an option on some cars. A rebuildable unit typically costs ~$75/used.
- Some folks who race MN12s have cooked their diff oil but this hasn't happened to us yet. If that happens, you may need to look at ways of cooling the diff.

4) We cut up 4 donor cars to get spare parts for our tbird. I did this before I had a son though (plenty of time) and was smart enough to tow the cars to a friends house so my wife never saw these carcasses.
- Early SCs can give you a spare rear diff/axles, thicker sway bars, stiffer springs, a manual pedal assembly, skinner brake pedal (or cut your own down and sell it), and the hydraulic clutch master cyl plus ~$1200-1500 in parts to resell (based on my experience)
- We have a 5.0 v8 so we could use the SC's M5R2 transmission (3.8/3.8SC/5.0 all use the same SBF bellhousing pattern). Since your bellhousing pattern is different, you will need a T5 from a Mustang, hydraulic clutch conversion, and you will need to fabricate a shift linkage to place the shifter a few inches rearward.


5) Don't forget better brakes. 99-04 Mustang GT calipers bolt right up.
http://www.tccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57171

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Ceci n'est pas une Citron Thunderbird ("This is not a lemon" but a 1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing + engine mounted frito maker)
2017 Sears Pointless Organizer’s Choice
Frito Making Tbird from 2018 Sears Pointless Engine Heat BBQ - http://goo.gl/csaet4

Re: MN12 Lemons Teams: Speed How Have You Achieved It?

You all are missing the obvious solution here, add boost. Turbo that mofo and dominate!

You are welcome smile

Apocalyptic Racing - Occupy Pit Lane racing
Racing the "Toylet" Toyota Celica powered by Chevrolet Ecotec.
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8 (edited by OnkelUdo 2015-09-21 11:07 AM)

Re: MN12 Lemons Teams: Speed How Have You Achieved It?

Brett85p wrote:

You all are missing the obvious solution here, add boost. Twin-charge that mofo and dominate!  Twice the complexity equals 10 times the domination.

You are welcome smile

FTFY

Re: MN12 Lemons Teams: Speed How Have You Achieved It?

Thanks for the info gunn you have given us much to think about.

5) Don't forget better brakes. 99-04 Mustang GT calipers bolt right up.

Just a curiosity did you find this necessary? Our car came with 4 wheel disc brakes with the larger, sport 11.6" dia. front rotors. We are running Porterfield Raybestos ST-43 pads. They ran the entire 24 hour Joliet race in July and still have half of the pad material left. We are more than happy with their performance everything else we have tried we were lucky to get 14 hours out of a set of fronts.  With this set up we can easily lock up the fronts when drivers get a little to aggressive. I just can't see needing larger two piston calipers, unless your car is much much faster.

Are you still running the factory rims? Do you have any tire recommendations? We have found new tires of any tread wear to be too soft and have a tendency to feather or chunk out. We have had the best luck with purchasing used tires that have been heat cycled and essentially shaved down. Any thing less that 40-45psi hot on the front just chews tires up in a 3hr fuel run.

Extreme feathering was less of an issue with -3° camber on the front -2° on the rear. However we wore the insides of the fronts out so we are going to try -2° on the front for the next race. -2° on the rear wears perfectly even.

#814, Nothin's Hotter Than A Cougar Racing, 1996 Mercury Cougar XR7

Re: MN12 Lemons Teams: Speed How Have You Achieved It?

Looking at Autobahn, first thing you need to do is cut down on those 15 - 20 min pits. Shaving seconds off a lap is nice, but it's more important to maximize on track time and turn any laps at all. Right now every 2 min off the track is a lap.

You'll notice Teem Sheen won but didn't have the fastest best time of the race. http://www.mylaps.com/en/classification/3608345
If you can consistently keep tires under the car, stay on track and get near the top 10, then it's time to really think about speed tweaks.

Also having owned a 94 V8 in the past, keeping it in the gear you want will do a lot. It seems like the 4.6 should be torquey, but it seemed to like the middle of the rev band more. Consider a manual valve body and a ratchet shifter. That way you can enter the turn already in the gear you want under load and not have to focus on finding the correct gear with the crappy ford shifter.

If your feathering too much you may be pushing too much understeer, especially if you still find yourself slow and off power on turn exit. Get the back a little firmer so the car becomes more neutral. As long a wheel base as the MN12 has, a touch of 4 wheel drift is your friend.

Work to reduce scrubbing off speed. Develop more trail braking and late apex entry. It may feel weird to slow even more on entry, but you'll probably find your actual turn exit speed will be higher as well as getting more useful life out of your tires.

Tire Rack will also shave and heat cycle tires for you. More $$ but you don't risk inheriting someone else's abuse.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: MN12 Lemons Teams: Speed How Have You Achieved It?

I didn't see what year it was but if 97 or older most likely a NPI motor, non performance improved. Find heads and an intake from a 99 and up mustang. Compression bumps to 10.5:1 ish. Get the 3:73's only Ford parts.
I got a set of heads with the cams for a case of beer from a tuning shop. The drag racers rip them off perfectly good motors and replace them with very expensive heads.

We did the jmod on our Crown Vic. Shifts a little quicker but I wouldn't run to make the mods until you have to service the trans mission next time.

'13  Sonoma - Class B Crown Vic, 14 Sonoma IOE - Race Rambler!, Autobahn Class C+IOE #Racevan!, '15 Thill IOE Winner - Omega!, '16 Ridge - IOE - Avanti!, '17 THill Class C Winner - Omega, Butt IOE - Race 411, Sonoma IOE - Aztek '18 Butt - IOE - Allante, MSR - IOE - '41 Olds - '19 Butt-Class C - Allante, '20 Covid, '21 THill-Class B - Omega, Sonoma - IOE and HWG  - Satellite, '22 Sonoma - HWG-Tojan

12 (edited by SlowMotionFire 2015-09-22 04:34 PM)

Re: MN12 Lemons Teams: Speed How Have You Achieved It?

Guildenstern wrote:

Looking at Autobahn, first thing you need to do is cut down on those 15 - 20 min pits. Shaving seconds off a lap is nice, but it's more important to maximize on track time and turn any laps at all. Right now every 2 min off the track is a lap.

After having two trouble free races our luck finally caught up with us at Autobahn. We had overheating issues early when our fan quit, then the transmission starting acting up and wouldn't upshift 2-3 unless you coasted it into a higher gear. we ended up running the last 14 hours in overdrive. We also had two stops where we changed out front tires.

We are starting to get a set up figured out to eliminate understeer, running excessive amounts of neg camber really helped get the nose to turn but accelerated tire wear. We are planning to back the camber off a hair and would like to find some stiffer springs in the front. Haven't been able to find any at the swap meets this summer.

The stock fuel filler on this car is a mess, a long snaky plastic tube that runs flat and backward at times.... this means fueling isn't the quickest of processes. We have learned that if we jack the right rear of the car off the ground it will fill slightly quicker and gain an additional 2 gal of fuel.
We don't have the budget to upgrade to a fuel cell.

#814, Nothin's Hotter Than A Cougar Racing, 1996 Mercury Cougar XR7

13 (edited by Goofracer72 2015-09-22 05:29 PM)

Re: MN12 Lemons Teams: Speed How Have You Achieved It?

I haven't raced one yet, but I've owned 3 of em.  An option to shave a little weight off the back of the car might be to find the rear lower control arms off of a Lincoln Mark 8.  Some of them were aluminium(later models I think..if not all).  As I'm sure you know, yours are cast iron.  Might need to get a little creative because the Mark 8 had airbags like most other lincolns.  Not sure if they'll work with the springs.  Could be worth a shot.  Also grab the aluminum drive shaft out of the lincoln....it'll fit. The diff in the Mn12 is the same 8.8 that came in the irs cobra mustangs.  So you can get gears and lsd parts for it.  Also if ya happen to find one online used(youd hafta be quite lucky) ford performance did make a performance diff that had 3.73 gears and tracloc in a full aluminum housing.  It may still be available in the ford performance catalog too.  If you cant afford the P.I. head swap, try to get a P.I. intake manifold.  Does bolt to non P.I. heads and gives ya a bit more mid range torque.  Or you could try an f150 intake manifold.  Should move your power band way lower.  Lots of low and mid range torque and power....falls flat on its face after 4200-4500.  But if youre keeping it under 4500 like judge Phil suggests for American v8s, then that's not a bad thing.  Should help with the stock gearing.  Would hafta cut a big hole in the hood.  Ive heard going with the PI heads with the older 4.6 also bumps ya up to 10:1 compression...though I'm not 100% sure on that.

Re: MN12 Lemons Teams: Speed How Have You Achieved It?

SlowMotionFire wrote:
Guildenstern wrote:

Looking at Autobahn, first thing you need to do is cut down on those 15 - 20 min pits. Shaving seconds off a lap is nice, but it's more important to maximize on track time and turn any laps at all. Right now every 2 min off the track is a lap.

After having two trouble free races our luck finally caught up with us at Autobahn. We had overheating issues early when our fan quit, then the transmission starting acting up and wouldn't upshift 2-3 unless you coasted it into a higher gear. we ended up running the last 14 hours in overdrive. We also had two stops where we changed out front tires.

We are starting to get a set up figured out to eliminate understeer, running excessive amounts of neg camber really helped get the nose to turn but accelerated tire wear. We are planning to back the camber off a hair and would like to find some stiffer springs in the front. Haven't been able to find any at the swap meets this summer.

The stock fuel filler on this car is a mess, a long snaky plastic tube that runs flat and backward at times.... this means fueling isn't the quickest of processes. We have learned that if we jack the right rear of the car off the ground it will fill slightly quicker and gain an additional 2 gal of fuel.
We don't have the budget to upgrade to a fuel cell.

Focus on taking the load off the front tires. How you have it set up is too easily exceeding the tires slip angle. You can't make the front bite any more, the tire just can't take it. Think more about balancing the back out, and work on driving techniques that keep the weight transfer in check during the turn in.

With a Cougar you can build a fire bulkhead and use a non FIA fuel cell easier which would really help since you can't modify the OE filler neck anymore.

Keep in mind, taking a couple seconds of your lap is still only going to add up to a few more laps at the end of the race. If you manage to get 4 seconds down a lap, you still need to do (1:53.000/lap, so 113 seconds/lap, 113/4=28) You're only gaining about one lap every 28 laps. Shaving 2 Minutes off your pit gives you a lap right there. And if you can save your tires more so you don't have to change them during the race, that saves even more time.

Think more about how quick you are when you are off the track. And look at ways you can minimize that. Close to half the Class A teams that don't win don't win because of how they work their pits. You can't modify the fuel filler, but could you find a way to make your fuel can nozzle vent better so they can fill the car faster? It would be great if money was no object and you could have race quality center locks to change out tires, but taking the time as a team to practice a quick tire change is free and an excuse to drink beer and play with racecars. Fast cars are great for SCCA sprints, But Fast TEAMS win endurance races.

Find ways to diagnose future problems and PLAN for them. After 2 races you may need to sit down and at least do a partial tear down and clean out of your transmission. That may be its useful time between overhaul. Or it was just old and gave out. But, PLAN for that. Beauty is you can put that nice manual valve body or a shift kit in there when you do it.

But, be Proactive.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: MN12 Lemons Teams: Speed How Have You Achieved It?

The later year Exploder is a good source for disc brake, limited slip, high ratio 8.8" rear ends.  There was a large # in the yards from cash-for-clunkers, but that was a while back. 

The later 4.6 SOHC heads also have larger valves.  Some metric nonsense, 1.5mm or something.  The early heads can be opened up to use the larger valves on a Serdi, along with some basic bowl porting to clean up the valve job, but now you need access to an automotive machine shop.  Probably easier to scrounge up a later set of heads from a drag racer.

The 4.6 mod motor needs some rpm.  If you want more low rpm torque, swap in a truck 5.4 mod motor.  S/F....Ken M

Re: MN12 Lemons Teams: Speed How Have You Achieved It?

I'm not sure he'd be able to fit a 5.4 in an MN12.  A 4.6 is kinda squeezed in there.  The 5.4 having a taller deck height means it'll be wider.....valve covers will be awfully close to those strut towers. And there might be exhaust clearance issues.  I think olaaf still has the trans out of the Turbo taxi for sale in the parts section if you wanna go the manual trans route.  Or you could just source the entire drive train from a mark 8......its basically your cougar with a 4.6 DOHC.

Re: MN12 Lemons Teams: Speed How Have You Achieved It?

As far as stiffening up the car goes, you can do some internet detective work on several different sites (like Moog) and find if something like the Thunderbird SC used stiffer springs (I suspect so) then often find generic replacements on Rock Auto or something for less than $100.

There was also a site somewhere that listed all the Moog part numbers in a spreadsheet/chart, so you could maybe find one with a similar size but a stiffer spring rate

Constructor/Owner/Driver - Billy Beer Ford Futura

Re: MN12 Lemons Teams: Speed How Have You Achieved It?

echosixmike wrote:

The later year Exploder is a good source for disc brake, limited slip, high ratio 8.8" rear ends.  There was a large # in the yards from cash-for-clunkers, but that was a while back. 

The later 4.6 SOHC heads also have larger valves.  Some metric nonsense, 1.5mm or something.  The early heads can be opened up to use the larger valves on a Serdi, along with some basic bowl porting to clean up the valve job, but now you need access to an automotive machine shop.  Probably easier to scrounge up a later set of heads from a drag racer.

The 4.6 mod motor needs some rpm.  If you want more low rpm torque, swap in a truck 5.4 mod motor.  S/F....Ken M

Why stop at a 5.4? Triton V10 6.8!

Bacon, oh bacon
Bacon, bacon, oh bacon
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Re: MN12 Lemons Teams: Speed How Have You Achieved It?

mhrir wrote:

Why stop at a 5.4? Triton V10 6.8!

Yes, fuel millage be dammed!

#814, Nothin's Hotter Than A Cougar Racing, 1996 Mercury Cougar XR7

Re: MN12 Lemons Teams: Speed How Have You Achieved It?

We too run the mn12 platform. Just not the v-8 power, 3.8l v-6 is the engine of choice for us. So no help here on engine mods(but I did like the more boost suggestion)
We had a top 10 in class finish,...... once.
It happened when the car didn't break during the race and all drivers were able to race clean for 2 days in a row.  There must be an important lesson in there somewhere. Unfortunately we have been unable to recapture that magic since.
But Miller is next and we all are convinced this will be the race we finally get it all together again.
Just keep the car on the track, it doesn't have to be extra fast, remember you get  zero laps when you are in the penalty box or parked in your paddock.

M45 Racing,
#45 '08 Subaru WRX,
#4  '63 Studebaker Avanti, IOE, The Ridge 2016
#19 '90 Thunderbird Super Coupe(retired) Organizers Choice Award, Sears 2015

21 (edited by SlowMotionFire 2015-09-23 07:59 PM)

Re: MN12 Lemons Teams: Speed How Have You Achieved It?

chdonley2,
What are you guys running for tires, and camber?
Are you running stiffer front springs or with the 3.8 have you not felt the need to stiffen the nose.
Do you have the same 18gal fuel tank as the 4.6L cars, we can run 3 hours give or take on a fuel run i have to assume with the V6 you can push 4?

#814, Nothin's Hotter Than A Cougar Racing, 1996 Mercury Cougar XR7

Re: MN12 Lemons Teams: Speed How Have You Achieved It?

echosixmike wrote:

The later year Exploder is a good source for disc brake, limited slip, high ratio 8.8" rear ends.  There was a large # in the yards from cash-for-clunkers, but that was a while back. 

The later 4.6 SOHC heads also have larger valves.  Some metric nonsense, 1.5mm or something.  The early heads can be opened up to use the larger valves on a Serdi, along with some basic bowl porting to clean up the valve job, but now you need access to an automotive machine shop.  Probably easier to scrounge up a later set of heads from a drag racer.

The 4.6 mod motor needs some rpm.  If you want more low rpm torque, swap in a truck 5.4 mod motor.  S/F....Ken M

Exploder isn't IRS so LSD won't fit in the MN12 pumpkin and I doubt the brakes will bolt up either.

Gears are OK (3.55:1 IIRC). Your rear end is probably a 3.08:1 (check the axle code on the doorjam tag or the tag on the diff) so you aren't going to gain much going to just 3.55 (15% shorter gearing).

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Ceci n'est pas une Citron Thunderbird ("This is not a lemon" but a 1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing + engine mounted frito maker)
2017 Sears Pointless Organizer’s Choice
Frito Making Tbird from 2018 Sears Pointless Engine Heat BBQ - http://goo.gl/csaet4

Re: MN12 Lemons Teams: Speed How Have You Achieved It?

Isn't an 02-09 Exploder an IRS 8.8?

Re: MN12 Lemons Teams: Speed How Have You Achieved It?

SlowMotionFire wrote:

chdonley2,
Do you have the same 18gal fuel tank as the 4.6L cars, we can run 3 hours give or take on a fuel run i have to assume with the V6 you can push 4?

You burn 6 gallons an hour with a 4.6L V8? I think I know why you're getting beat out of the corners lol

But seriously, that's impressive.

Re: MN12 Lemons Teams: Speed How Have You Achieved It?

ross2004 wrote:

You burn 6 gallons an hour with a 4.6L V8? I think I know why you're getting beat out of the corners lol

But seriously, that's impressive.

We burn that, and often more, in a Buick 3800 Series I...and not the supercharged one.