Topic: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

Haven't seen this posted here yet. I think it's important t share.

http://sopwithmotorsports.com/blog/shor … art-i.html

Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

The thing that hit me the hardest about the whole thing was his admittance that he had never practiced getting out of the car. He didn't take off the steering wheel, which cost him time getting out of the car when he got hung up on it. He also opened his visor at some point to try and see better. The point of practicing is so that you can get out blindfolded. Opening your visor removes protection from your face. Compare his story to this one and see how the obsession with practice got this guy out before his suit started failing.

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/artic … ting-fire/

I applaud the guy for talking about it, and my thoughts are in no way an attack on him. Fire terrifies me, so anything I can learn from his story is good.



I don't want to start a rumor fest about what actually caused the fire. However he eludes to the fact that gas was spraying inside the cabin before the whole thing went up. To me that screams giant mistake with the car's design. Maybe it was a failing connector on the fuel cell (944 doesn't really have a divider between trunk and passenger area). Maybe it was something more serious like holes in the firewall. Whatever the case, the lesson learned should be that fire is no joke, and you should be triple checking your fuel system every race to make sure new potential issues haven't cropped up.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Abandoned E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

That was sobering. There is a lot to think about after reading both of those. One big one is that many Lemoneers - myself included - take rapidly exiting the vehicle lightly. Practicing an emergency exit is mostly limited to passing tech. I think that should change; I'll make more of an effort to practice exiting every car I'm driving while geared up.

Quad4 CRX - Wartburg 311 - Civic Wagovan - Parnelli Jones Galaxie - LS400 - Lancia MR2 - Boat - Sentra - 56 Ford Victoria
Known Associate of 3pedal Mafia, Speedycop, and the Russians.  Maybe even NSF.

Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

Also I saw a bunch of cars at out last race with holes in the firewall taped up and filled with all kinds of other detritus.  That should not be allowed ever!  In fact I think the rules say that all holes must either be welded shut or plugged with a proper fitting grommet.  Just my two cents.

Disco

" the only good thing hipsters have brought about is the canning of non crappy beers"

Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

dculberson wrote:

That was sobering. There is a lot to think about after reading both of those. One big one is that many Lemoneers - myself included - take rapidly exiting the vehicle lightly. Practicing an emergency exit is mostly limited to passing tech. I think that should change; I'll make more of an effort to practice exiting every car I'm driving while geared up.


This!!!!!  We are going to start practicing next weekend.  I have a couple bigger/older guys on the team that struggle a bit getting in and out as it is.  I also like the blindfold idea.  The WRL guy couldn't see in his situation.  Keep the visor down and get out with your eyes closed.

Team Glue Sticks
00 Firebird, 02 X-Type, 93 NX2000, 00 Mazda 626 (Sold)
2016 NJMP Heroic Fix, 2017 NJMP Near Heroic Fix except we can't drive, 2017 Thompson I Got Screwed, 2019 Pitt Heroic Fix

Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

Having experienced a burning racecar, the part about spraying fuel in the cockpit would concern me.  Bad design or something.  Everyone should reevaluate their builds, concerning fuel storage & delivery.

Mine was a cheap hose clamp failure (now I spend $$$ on good clamps), but it only sprayed in the engine compartment.  Car was still a total write-off.

I also spend a ton of time sitting in my car, making sure the door handle is easily accessible, works and I've also removed the locking mechanism (the knob you push down to lock the door)....it could inadvertently be pushed down, trapping the belted driver in the car.

After reading this article, I really should spend more time showing A & D's the in's & out's of the car!

Tetanus Racing Toxoid!
86 E30  It ain't cheatin' if it's junk!
Work in Progress

Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

This is one of the many reasons I am against mechanical oil-pressure gauges. By the time you notice that the line is leaking, you and the cockpit will be covered with burny, burny motor oil.

Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

Another un-mentioned thing is Drilling Fire Procedures prior to egress.

You have to #1 stop any more potential fuel from being fed to the fire
#2 get the car stopped as quickly as possible
#3 Get the window net down while you're waiting to come to a stop.

#1 is you HAVE TO HAVE TO HAVE TO hit the kill switch. Stop the fuel pump, stop the spark, then stop the car.
Following with that, if you keep pouring fuel into the fire no amount of extinguisher is going to stop it.

Also while moving you may not be able to put the fire out even with a fancy Halon rig. Don't pop the bottle until you are stopped. Otherwise you just wasted your get the hell out shot.

Fire emergencies are always a huge pert of flight training. It's one of the hardest things to stay calm about, so you have to practice practice practice. As well as figure out the exact limitations of your system.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

Guildenstern wrote:

#1 is you HAVE TO HAVE TO HAVE TO hit the kill switch. Stop the fuel pump, stop the spark, then stop the car.
Following with that, if you keep pouring fuel into the fire no amount of extinguisher is going to stop it.

Did we learn nothing from watching the SHO Skunk go up in flames at Sonoma a couple of years ago?  Greg posted video showing the fuel feeding the fire, and how lots of damage could have been avoided had the driver popped the switch.

It's easy to second guess, but yeah, stopping the fuel from spraying all over you is one good way to stop the immolation.  I always wonder if I'd be level headed when all hell is breaking loose.

I'm glad this guy posted this blog.  It is generating some great discussions.

Someday, we're going to have some level of mandatory driver certification/education.  This kind of thing should be at the top of the list.

bs

Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

bshorey wrote:

I always wonder if I'd be level headed when all hell is breaking loose.

When my car's front end exploded, I tell everyone that I remember, distinctly, everything going in slow motion.

Instinctively I reach over to hit the kill switch and from that point on, until I was out of the car seemed like minutes, but I was told it was actually pretty fast!  It didn't seem like it at the time!

Tetanus Racing Toxoid!
86 E30  It ain't cheatin' if it's junk!
Work in Progress

Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

crashandburn wrote:
bshorey wrote:

I always wonder if I'd be level headed when all hell is breaking loose.

When my car's front end exploded, I tell everyone that I remember, distinctly, everything going in slow motion.

Instinctively I reach over to hit the kill switch and from that point on, until I was out of the car seemed like minutes, but I was told it was actually pretty fast!  It didn't seem like it at the time!

I'm like that too, but not everyone is. You don't know until it happens how you react. A lot of people freeze up. Their brain just can't cope, Sounds like the article writer was a bit like that. He could have started preparing for egress as he slowed, but I think he got focused on single task fixation.

I had to break a couple students of this, And by break that can mean giving them "the ARM" in the cockpit to get them off the controls so I could recover, but until you get in the situation it's an unknown.

So I guess go out and almost kill yourself to find out your response profile?

(Don't go out and almost kill yourselves)

Always plan your outs, always look for the trouble before it finds you, and drill. The first time you get in trouble needs to be in your head or simulated so when it really happens you already have a plan in place.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

12 (edited by billybobster 2016-03-03 02:43 PM)

Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

bshorey wrote:
Guildenstern wrote:

#1 is you HAVE TO HAVE TO HAVE TO hit the kill switch. Stop the fuel pump, stop the spark, then stop the car.
Following with that, if you keep pouring fuel into the fire no amount of extinguisher is going to stop it.

Did we learn nothing from watching the SHO Skunk go up in flames at Sonoma a couple of years ago?  Greg posted video showing the fuel feeding the fire, and how lots of damage could have been avoided had the driver popped the switch.

It's easy to second guess, but yeah, stopping the fuel from spraying all over you is one good way to stop the immolation.  I always wonder if I'd be level headed when all hell is breaking loose.

I'm glad this guy posted this blog.  It is generating some great discussions.

Someday, we're going to have some level of mandatory driver certification/education.  This kind of thing should be at the top of the list.

bs

My first race was in the Skunk in its return from the fire, again at Sonoma. For me, that was a great way to reinforce thinking hard and multiple times about what the procedure should be for fire in the car. I emphasized procedure because in the moment, your and my brains are in cognitive overload - no time to be figuring out what to do. As Guildenstern said, having a set procedure, memorizing it and doing practices including car exit are a great way to internalize what to do.

So have I done a full driver gear practice fire/exit in our new car? Uhhh... no.

As for time slowing down, I had a self-caused non-LeMons almost crash at Sonoma where I experienced that. I was headed for a tire wall, and I remember having what seemed like a long time to think about options and reject two before deciding that #3 was better than nothing. I did miss the wall. Not sure if it was skill, luck or I wasn't actually going to hit it. But I had thought about that kind of situation, and whether you try to do something or just get into crash position and wait. Also, doesn't mean my brain won't seize up in a fire situation.

Orientation for track rookies and regular reviews/practices of safety procedures for everyone are great ideas. We can at least do them at the team level.

25X Loser - Delinquent Racing - '86 Rust-Tite Merkur - 9 years (when do I get to stop?).

13 (edited by fleming95 2016-03-03 02:50 PM)

Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

crashandburn wrote:

Having experienced a burning racecar, the part about spraying fuel in the cockpit would concern me.  Bad design or something.  Everyone should reevaluate their builds, concerning fuel storage & delivery.

Mine was a cheap hose clamp failure (now I spend $$$ on good clamps), but it only sprayed in the engine compartment.  Car was still a total write-off.

Guildenstern wrote:

Another un-mentioned thing is Drilling Fire Procedures prior to egress.

<snip>

Fire emergencies are always a huge pert of flight training. It's one of the hardest things to stay calm about, so you have to practice practice practice. As well as figure out the exact limitations of your system.

bshorey wrote:

I'm glad this guy posted this blog.  It is generating some great discussions.

Someday, we're going to have some level of mandatory driver certification/education.  This kind of thing should be at the top of the list.

bs


One of the things that we 'racers'/pilots/motorcyclists/fill-in-the-blanks know is that we can learn a lot from what the 'other guy' did, especially if you can imagine yourself in his shoes and say, 'hey, that could, or almost did, happen to me!'.

For example, from hearing the story of the (Cavalier?) rollover and fire at Sears way back in the day, I learned 'if you're upside down and on fire, don't open the belts and fall on your head and chip a vertebra.  Push on the roof.'

Keeping the stories going, such as I read when the Skunk got cooked, the video from the Eyesore+friiends crash between 4 and 5 at Sears last fall, or even about the 'cheap' hose clamp (what kind was wrong, and what was right, btw.?) means we don't all have to learn the same lessons ourselves the first time while upside down and on fire.

Here's are some bad ideas.  They are impractical and should not be pursued -

- for a penalty (especially for Southworst, should they ever need an hour break!), have a team shoot a video scripted like the preflight passenger safety briefings, preferably with stewardess outfits.  Done well enough, it goes up in black flag on a loop.  Done even better would be safety cards that would actually be informative and people would look at.  This is impossible.
- make more work in Tech (bad, bad idea) - drivers need to be in full gear, full belts, etc.,  Put smoke machine under car on a random timer so each driver doesn't know when it'll fire.  Watch the stress build, time the exit - and grid accordingly on Sunday.  This is also impossible.

- more better, have the Lemons crew put together their 'top-ten janky-*ss things that we keep seeing that you think you're too smart to have happen to you but actually are too dumb to recognize' like the Lemons Wrapup Vids.  Show both the bad (butt turrible!) and the good (hella sweet!) so we idiots have the answers given to us.

(every wrapup vid is already like that - especially the Poorolator fire and the Ranchero crash.)

Basically, whatever techniques work to engage the interested pilots/skydivers/SCUBA divers/motorcyclists to learn from his peers should work here too.

14 (edited by jiggermyster 2016-03-03 08:55 PM)

Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

Guildenstern wrote:

Another un-mentioned thing is Drilling Fire Procedures prior to egress.

You have to #1 stop any more potential fuel from being fed to the fire
#2 get the car stopped as quickly as possible
#3 Get the window net down while you're waiting to come to a stop.

#1 is you HAVE TO HAVE TO HAVE TO hit the kill switch. Stop the fuel pump, stop the spark, then stop the car.
Following with that, if you keep pouring fuel into the fire no amount of extinguisher is going to stop it....

We had one at a VARA event several years back.
At ~2:50 the fireman reaches in and turns off the switch. Up until that point the electric fuel pump was pumping fuel out the busted fuel fitting and feeding the fire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MibVrVfem8

15 (edited by ninjacoco 2016-03-03 09:48 PM)

Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

Guildenstern wrote:

I'm like that too, but not everyone is. You don't know until it happens how you react. A lot of people freeze up. Their brain just can't cope, Sounds like the article writer was a bit like that. He could have started preparing for egress as he slowed, but I think he got focused on single task fixation.

I'm apparently a freezer. Either it's that, or my brain froze after being hit and rolled in the Nash, but I fixated on the one red kill switch that was out of reach because it was in my field of vision, it was big, and it was red. There was another kill switch right next to the button I'd been trying to restart the car with pre-smack, easily within reach. That bit of information completely escaped me when SHTF (or MHTN, I guess). I wouldn't stop howling about the big red kill switch until the EMTs turned it off, either.

I don't think I'll change the bright red kill switch in the middle of the 944. It's a big honkin' paddle, and the big red pull-thing for the fire suppression system is right underneath it. I was talking to one of my friends who does some flying, and he said that there's good reason why some of the cockpit switches look like Little Tikes knobs.

Reading this and thinking of other series' window net requirements--ugh, I hate how fiddly net releases are. Hate hate hate. Both the pull-back and the belt-style buttons such so hard. I really wish someone would make a giant button that didn't stick or suck for a window net. If you know of any that don't, please, post away. I've got the springy curtain rod kind of net release and it's a PITA to get on and off. We've also got a 944, so the egress isn't the best anyway.

Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

As soon as I read his story a few things came to mind;

1. I need to seal up the cowl in my car completely -this has been on the if we have time to do list - and now is on the won't race until it is done list. The holes are plugged/welded, but the old GM cowl is just a giant fuel vapor/burning oil to cockpit delivery system.
2. Having the team practicing the exit of the car, my old helmet that is out of spec could be used by duct taping the visor closed for all members of the team so it has to be practiced by feel.
3. Just because I replaced fuel system components when I built the car and inspected them a week before the race it needs to happen on Saturday morning pre race checklist. We don't usually start until 10 on Saturday so there is no excuse to take 5 minutes to do so. It should also be done Saturday evening when the car comes off the track.
4. A fire suppression system has been in the back of my mind for a while, like my HANS was. Time to pony up for it - they are relatively inexpensive when split between 3 or 4 team members.
5. With the introduction of the HANS I did not buy or have worn a head sock and my neck is full exposed to the air - Summit order happening today to correct that.
6. When is the last time I really inspected my fire suit, gloves, shoes, socks? Did I do any kind of inspection other than the old did I remember to wash it after the last race?
7. Did my gloves get fuel on them when fueling? Maybe it's a good idea to have a pair laying around for the fueler to use.
8. Should the driver going into the car even put fuel in it? If they spill it on themselves and something happens their gear is now ready to ignite.

I am happy he shared this experience, it is a brutal reminder of what can happen. I wish him a speedy recovery.

'13  Sonoma - Class B Crown Vic, 14 Sonoma IOE - Race Rambler!, Autobahn Class C+IOE #Racevan!, '15 Thill IOE Winner - Omega!, '16 Ridge - IOE - Avanti!, '17 THill Class C Winner - Omega, Butt IOE - Race 411, Sonoma IOE - Aztek '18 Butt - IOE - Allante, MSR - IOE - '41 Olds - '19 Butt-Class C - Allante, '20 Covid, '21 THill-Class B - Omega, Sonoma - IOE and HWG  - Satellite, '22 Sonoma - HWG-Tojan

Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

Worst case is the cockpit bursting into flame at max speed (much like happened to the 944). Keep in mind that our crapass, zero downforce cars can at best decelerate at 1.0G, or 32FPSPS. Traveling at 110MPH or 161FPS, it will take AT LEAST 5 seconds to stop the car. That's 5 seconds stuck in the cockpit with a fire fanned by airflow swirling around the cockpit.

On the plus side, is 5 seconds to flip the master switch, drop the net and grope the fire suppression knob, ready to pull if you're getting cooked or as coming to a stop.

Jim C.
If God meant for us to race, we'd all have baggy Nomex skin.
08TMS.09NL.10GM, SP, NL.11SP, NL.12SP, VIR, NL.13GM, NJ.14NJ, VIR, WGI.15AB.16GM.17NCM.18GM.19...

Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

This video completely changed my thinking on safety:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LX0kZGQ … re=related

After that, I bought an on board fire suppression system and upgraded my suit to 3 layers, which I wear with fire proof long johns and a fire proof head sock.  We already take enough risks, no reason to save money on safety.

This is a sobering story.

Lou Glutz Motorsports:  Vodden 2012 DNF, Pointless 2013 DNF, Vodden 2013 DNF, ArseFreeze 2013 P-53, Pointless 2014 P-65, Vodden 2014 P-85, Arse-Freeze 2014 P-31 Class A, Pointless 2015 P-105 (brakes) Class A, Vodden 2015 P-75 (Electrical), ArseFreeze 2015 P-41, Pointless 2016 P-53, ArseFreeze P-29

Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

fleming95 wrote:

Here's are some bad ideas.  They are impractical and should not be pursued -

- for a penalty (especially for Southworst, should they ever need an hour break!), have a team shoot a video scripted like the preflight passenger safety briefings, preferably with stewardess outfits.  Done well enough, it goes up in black flag on a loop.  Done even better would be safety cards that would actually be informative and people would look at.  This is impossible.
- make more work in Tech (bad, bad idea) - drivers need to be in full gear, full belts, etc.,  Put smoke machine under car on a random timer so each driver doesn't know when it'll fire.  Watch the stress build, time the exit - and grid accordingly on Sunday.  This is also impossible.

- more better, have the Lemons crew put together their 'top-ten janky-*ss things that we keep seeing that you think you're too smart to have happen to you but actually are too dumb to recognize' like the Lemons Wrapup Vids.  Show both the bad (butt turrible!) and the good (hella sweet!) so we idiots have the answers given to us.

(every wrapup vid is already like that - especially the Poorolator fire and the Ranchero crash.)

Basically, whatever techniques work to engage the interested pilots/skydivers/SCUBA divers/motorcyclists to learn from his peers should work here too.

I like the Safety video punishment. They've made teams go make videos before so it's a reasonable way of keeping them off the track for a bit.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

As an example, Here is a few of the Emergency Procedures for a Cessna 172S
The Bold lines are Memory Items that MUST be accomplished Automatically In a burning race car essentially the whole thing needs to be Memory Items only.

http://i544.photobucket.com/albums/hh354/mzaite/IMG_3328_zpshvq6qfm8.jpg

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

On the .mil side of my life, one of the critical mission planning steps, perhaps "the" critical step is conducting rehearsals.  Practicing the complete bailout procedure a couple times can be priceless when your brain gets locked up in the "fight/run away" response to sudden intense stress combined with pain.  S/F....Ken M

Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

Fire sometimes happens after impact, in one case I sustained a concussion from head whip upon hitting the wall, fuel/exhaust and electrical pinched/severed between engine and strut tower, big fire, I am not the type to freeze, there was plenty of time "in my head" to get out but as I struggled ,spending important seconds trying to power down the car on egress, I totally forgot the main kill existed (even though I designed and installed the kill system)

More practice and I may have remembered the main kill, it was under my relaxed right hand in the middle, perhaps ninjacoco has something about the "big red" being in direct sight.

Anyone have a link to the nash crash?

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring 6th-PBIR Lemons 9th - Charlotte Chump  CrashnBurn 9th
Sebring 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Trans Fail 16th
Daytona 11th - Sebring 6th - Atlanta Motor Speedway 2nd - Road Atlanta Trans Fail 61st-Road Atlanta 5th
Daytona 13th - Charlotte 9th - Sebring 2nd-Charlotte 25th broken brakes - Road Atlanta 14 10th-Daytona 14  58th- Humid TT 19th Judges' Choice!

Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

There are no existing, published videos of the Nash crash at Barber. The Miata and the 944 both had their cameras inop at the time, apparently.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

You guys are running your electric fuel pumps through something like an oil pressure sensor, right? If the engine's not running, the fuel pump shouldn't be able to either.

Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

We didn't run the fuel pump through the oil pressure sensor because we can empty our fuel cell with the fuel pump with the engine off.

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.