Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

I do agree that safety nets can be dangerous.   From what I've read several systems seem to be slow to remove in a panicked situation.   We have t-tops so we have arm restraints which come off immediately as you undo your harness.  Seems to be a solid solution to the arm out of the window problem.  No harness, that's crazy talk.

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Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

I believe he was just going to the ludicrous end when he mentions harnesses, and I don't think he is even against nets.

The problem I believe is that most of these mandated safety items are handed down by the series' insurance company (or in the case of NJ, the state legislature).  Since we cannot race without insurance, they have us by the short hairs.

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Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

Several Comments:

For those of you talking about getting around to sealing your firewall:

3.K.1 Engine Firewall. Gaps or holes in the engine firewall must be sealed up with metal plate or OE-type grommets. If you can see through it, we want it closed up.  In addition to the required unbroken firewall between engine and cockpit, rear- and mid-engined cars must have a sturdy rear window or other complete upper barrier for driver protection against fire, hot oil, angry villagers, etc. Metal, heavy polycarbonate (1/4-inch or thicker), and OE glass are all acceptable.

I believe that rule dates back to the beginning of Lemons.

I was at COTA and they struggled with that fire for a while.

Water will help put out a fire by cooling it and it does block air too. I think foam would have been better.

In one of the videos you can see fire continuing to drop down from the car. Like the OE fuel tank was leaking and continuing to burn. It would be a really hard place to get water too with the car on the ground. The car body becomes an umbrella.

Lots of cars have the fuel tank very centrally located and encapsulated for crash protection. That would make them very hard to put out in a fire. This is not exclusive to 944s. Look at most BMWs or a Maita. Probably most modern cars. Figure out how you're gonna wash the fuel tank with the car on the ground.

If there was a fuel cell in the hatch, I would think they could put it out threw the hole that was formerly the back window. A fuel cell could more easily explain the fuel on the hand and leg, the fire under the car seems more like an OE tank.

Still no clue how the driver gets doused in fuel from the OE fuel system in a 944.

I bet the burst of fire in the video was the fuel tank rupturing or catching fire or something. Like maybe a fuel line was the initial source but once the car was on fire the fuel tank melted. Plastic is great for crash protection but melts a lot easier in a fire. It could have also been the fuel more or less blowing out of the tank due to pressure caused by heating it in the fire. It's hard to say but I bet a couple of the safety guys needed fresh undies after that.

It would be nice to have more clarity on where the fuel hitting his hand and leg came from and what the ignition source was.

The front of the car is the least burned so I think the fire and fuel was from the back and not the front. I would think a fire from fuel lines at the motor would have burned the engine compartment more.

I am surprised they are talking about this event much at all. I have not seen any press coverage of the Nash-Miata accident at Barber. There are plenty of things to discuss but I don't know how positive it would be.

Every car at COTA had to pass tech either that Friday or the weekend beforehand at TWS. The fire happened in the first hour of the race so the tech sticker had less than an hour of race time on it. This also demonstrates how important it is for teams to be able to recognize safe and unsafe situations. It is up to us to take care of our own safety.

Every pit stop is a good time to practice getting out of the car like it's on fire.

Complacency can result in bad things, it's happened to my team, pay attention.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

Troy wrote:

Still no clue how the driver gets doused in fuel from the OE fuel system in a 944.   It would be nice to have more clarity on where the fuel hitting his hand and leg came from and what the ignition source was.

The above is what I want to know as well.   The focus (at least for now) seems to be on his issue with his egress, but perhaps measures to prevent the fire in the first place would be the place for him to start looking.  We all know that in a crash sh*t happens, and all of the circumstances can never been foreseen, hence the need for fire suits, belts, helmets, etc., but prevention should be first and foremost IMO.

We had already planned to install an on-board FSS in our car, but I'll admit this incident moved up our time table.  Our AFFF system wasn't expensive (less than $400) and I can see on board FSS being mandated in the future.  If it affords you just a few extra seconds to GTFO of a burning car, it's well worth it.  I think it's funny that I've read comments elsewhere about the AFFF damaging car electronics, and even a complaint that AFFF can make the track slick when deployed.  I can't speak for others, but for my team, all we care about is our driver getting out safely.  If the entire car burns to the ground after he's out, we could care less.  It's just a car, and we can build another one, but we can't build another driver.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

55 (edited by TheEngineer 2016-03-15 06:05 AM)

Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

I snipped out a few comments

Troy wrote:

I am surprised they are talking about this event much at all. I have not seen any press coverage of the Nash-Miata accident at Barber. There are plenty of things to discuss but I don't know how positive it would be.

Every car at COTA had to pass tech either that Friday or the weekend beforehand at TWS. The fire happened in the first hour of the race so the tech sticker had less than an hour of race time on it. This also demonstrates how important it is for teams to be able to recognize safe and unsafe situations. It is up to us to take care of our own safety.


I'm not surprised at all that it's getting talked about this much. Fire is scary, and large fires draw attention. Anyone involved in this sport knows crashes happen, and occasionally people go on their roofs. But a large fire that forces an emergency exit and a helicopter ride? that's one of those accidents that you like to think can't happen to you.

Your second point is one that needs to be talked about more. We all go through tech, but tech can't catch everything. That's why someone from your team sits down with the check list and signs off that every single thing is done and done properly. You are saying to tech that you are a responsible adult, and that you have built the car as safely as you are capable. Sure tech is going to give the car a once over, but they see dozens of cars. If  you sign off that your firewall is sealed, they're going to trust you and not climb in upside-down into the cabin and inspect every square inch. It is your responsibility as the car owner to make sure all of that is done, not do a half-assed job and hope tech doesn't notice.

Additionally, if you are just a driver it is your responsibility to look over the car as well. Before you strap in you should be confident that the car is safe and be intimately familiar with the important safety bits and egress procedure.

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Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

VKZ24 wrote:
Troy wrote:

Still no clue how the driver gets doused in fuel from the OE fuel system in a 944.   It would be nice to have more clarity on where the fuel hitting his hand and leg came from and what the ignition source was.

The above is what I want to know as well.   The focus (at least for now) seems to be on his issue with his egress, but perhaps measures to prevent the fire in the first place would be the place for him to start looking.  We all know that in a crash sh*t happens, and all of the circumstances can never been foreseen, hence the need for fire suits, belts, helmets, etc., but prevention should be first and foremost IMO.

We had already planned to install an on-board FSS in our car, but I'll admit this incident moved up our time table.  Our AFFF system wasn't expensive (less than $400) and I can see on board FSS being mandated in the future.  If it affords you just a few extra seconds to GTFO of a burning car, it's well worth it.  I think it's funny that I've read comments elsewhere about the AFFF damaging car electronics, and even a complaint that AFFF can make the track slick when deployed.  I can't speak for others, but for my team, all we care about is our driver getting out safely.  If the entire car burns to the ground after he's out, we could care less.  It's just a car, and we can build another one, but we can't build another driver.


I asked the same thing on the other forum and one of the responses was from the organizer and it brings a little bit more light to what happened, maybe. wink

Quote:    As we have pieced things together after the fat, Stephen's recollection of some things has not been 100% accurate, which is totally understandable under the circumstances. I can't even imagine the adrenaline that must have been going through him at that moment. So what he thought was fuel spraying on his arm might not have been fuel at all (I'm not sure how you would feel it through a multi-layer suit and underwear, but who knows?).

2010, 26th @ CMP, 2011, 10th & 5th at CMP, 2012? (MIA), 2013 Spring CMP, 53rd, 2013 Fall CMP 44th, 2014 Barber 14th, 2014 CMP 46th, 2015 CMP 57th, 2015 CMP 80th, 2016 CMP 16th, 3rd in B class, Winner Judges choice, and First car under 2.0 liter Alex's lemon aide stand winner. 2017 WRL, Road Atlanta 43rd, 2017 NCM 9th O/A , 1st in B class, 2018 CMP 13th O/A 3rd in Class B

Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

So the organizer, as in the person who could have significant problems based on a shoddy tech inspection basically said "It could have been lots of things, not fuel from a line we neglected to inspect."

His recollection may be fuzzy, it was just the planet venus reflecting off marsh gas.

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Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

cdickman12 wrote:

As soon as I read his story a few things came to mind;

7. Did my gloves get fuel on them when fueling? Maybe it's a good idea to have a pair laying around for the fueler to use.
8. Should the driver going into the car even put fuel in it? If they spill it on themselves and something happens their gear is now ready to ignite.

On our team we use my old driving gloves for fueling the car and the driver getting in the car mans the fire extinguisher so that they don't get fuel on their suit.
We also are going to practice getting out of the car in a hurry.

Wes Conklin
Team California Mille
2007 Eyetalian Class Champions
20+ races and still going strong, Finally won one. Pacific Northworst Winner 2012.

Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

We don't allow the driver exiting or entering the car to fuel.  Which means there are actually two more guys suited to fuel and man the exstinguisher.  The guy going in has to watch for fuel spills.  The guy getting out needs to go sit down.  We run 2.5 + hr shifts and when you get out you are in no shape to be fueling a car.  We also have a special set of fueling gloves, a fueling suit and a fueling helmet.  No one wants gas on their nice setup.

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

TeamLemon-aid wrote:

We don't allow the driver exiting or entering the car to fuel.  Which means there are actually two more guys suited to fuel and man the exstinguisher.  The guy going in has to watch for fuel spills.  The guy getting out needs to go sit down.  We run 2.5 + hr shifts and when you get out you are in no shape to be fueling a car.  We also have a special set of fueling gloves, a fueling suit and a fueling helmet.  No one wants gas on their nice setup.

Our mantra is also that the driver getting out does NOTHING, but sit down and take a well deserved rest.  The guy getting in next hands the fuel can over the wall to the fuel guy, while the other guy is manning the extinguisher.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

We started suiting all 4 of us at driver changes. Old driver gets out and waits to help new driver with belts and new driver walks around car and takes a quick look at tires/brakes while other two guys handle fueling.  That seems to work well.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: Trapped in a Burning Racecar

The only time I’ve had a serious crash was when I rolled my RX-2 rally car off into the woods while practicing one night. I landed upside-down and of course immediately hit the lever on my harness without bracing myself first. After I landed on my head I found myself on all fours on the headliner, upside-down, in the dark. From that position I had no idea where the door handle was and I wasn’t sure there was room to shimmy through the window. I was so afraid of fire that as soon as I found the handle I was out and up the hill like a shot. It seemed like forever but I think it was probably less than 10 seconds. Of course I didn’t shut off anything electrical so once I was relatively sure it wasn’t going to blow up I walked back down the hill and shut everything off. Thankfully except for a little crimp in my neck I was a-ok. The next day I came back with a wrecker, we pulled the car up the hill, filled it up with gas and dang if it didn’t start up and drive home! It never raced again but at least it gave it’s all for me when it counted.

Lesson, not only practice the procedures to shut the car down but also think about where the door handle would be upside-down and in the dark. Or better yet devise some way to quickly open the door without thinking about it in that situation.