Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEAAVyL0nK4

I'm Nikolas Van Helsing, professor of proctology and other related tendencies. A graduate of the University of Rangoon. And assorted night classes at the Knoxville Tennessee school of faith healing.
Team Cheese Consortium, now Boondoggle Racing!!
2010, 26th @ CMP, 2011, 10th & 5th at CMP, 2012? (MIA) 2013 CMP, 53rd sad

27 (edited by VKZ24 2016-06-27 12:15 PM)

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

TeamLemon-aid wrote:

...I'm not entirely sure Jay really wants to grow.  It seems they are content with the current number of races and the sizes of the fields.


Agreed.  Even though the 'other series' has twice as many races, and does X,Y, Z differently, Jay hasn't changed a thing, and to be clear, I'm NOT suggesting that he should.  Sure I would like to have more events (more tracks) to choose from in Lemons, but unfortunately it's not up to me. I'm not willing to play demolition derby with the other guys, or tow 12+ hours one way, so I guess I'll have to be content running the 3 races per year we are currently.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
#411
'93 Acura Integra

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

TeamLemon-aid wrote:

I started racing Lemons due to a YouTube video ...

https://youtu.be/gmmRh-YH72I

Just saying traditional "advertising" isn't always effective to get new teams into the series.  Having said that, I'm not entirely sure Jay really wants to grow.  It seems they are content with the current number of races and the sizes of the fields.

Had not seen that one before...must have been early in the series with the open face helmet.

I think, as a businessman, Jay would want every ace at capacity and it is clear some southern and Midwest races are not.  That said, I do not want into Jay's head as I suspect it is a scary place.

At this point in the Midwest it appears that about half the new teams are created as spin-offs from existing teams and the rest are random idiots like us that just thought it looked like fun.  So the "best" and cheapest way to expand car counts here is have your team get moderately successful and end up with too many drivers.  At that point you encourage one of the team to build or buy their own car because "if I can do it, surely you can".  At that point you help them just enough that they are in too deep and have no choice but to get to the track...

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

OnkelUdo wrote:

That said, I do not want into Jay's head as I suspect it is a scary place.

I feel like there would be a lot of scary clowns doing unspeakable things.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL) https://www.facebook.com/groups/MBTLracing/
88 Thunderbird "What's the word? Thunderbird!", "What's the Price? Thirty Twice!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

m610 wrote:

"Dr Pepper, the champagne of LeMons"

Dr Pepper is a  1/3 151 Rum, 2/3 Amaretto shot - boilermaker (drop the shot into a 12 ounce beer in a Beer Pint Glass.

Dudes Ex Machina: https://www.facebook.com/dudesexmachina

?Everyone who has ever built anywhere a 'new heaven' first found the power thereto in his own hell- Frederick Nietzsche

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

VanillaHaze wrote:
ninjacoco wrote:

What's smarter is the video idea. You reach more people who can't make it out to the track, and it's easier to grab the attention of exactly the kind of internet wackos who'd find this series amusing that way. It's infinitely shareable on the Intertubez. Shoot, I've shared quite a few LeMons vids and we're hoping to do a stream off the 944 soon, too.

Going along with this and some other points in this thread, I feel like the best steps would be to have  a more complete summary of each race. The wrap up videos, while entertaining, only contain 5 minutes of content from 14 hours of racing. I would like to see more complete coverage of the race with some emphasis on the winners. I understand why the organizers have resisted lauding the winners, but it makes it harder to convey a narrative when the story they like to tell is we broke and then barely got back on track. Lets follow the stories of a few leading teams from each class and summarize how the race for each class went. Let's generate a half hour video with 10 minutes for each class. I think that we could create come good content if somebody grabbed the best of the pictures and videos that people post after the race and get stories from the guys on teams that were vying for the lead. Guys rebuilding motors with beer cans make great asides, but racing creates a dramatic tension that lends to a real narrative.

I have to respectfully disagree with your assertion that focusing on and lauding the Class Lap Leaders and recapping class battles for 30 minutes would constitute appealing LeMons-related Video content. I think that sort of stuff is available from every other race series on the planet. And LeMons works very hard on distinguishing itself from every other race series on the planet. If you want to participate in a race series like any other race series, then go do or watch any of those other race series'.

I think the whole BS inspections and hammering teams and drivers who demonstrate that they don't "get it" (whether it be during inspection of black flag) makes it pretty clear that the stories and narrative the organizers (who are a whole crew of automotive journalists) want are NOT those that are speed and lap-centric. In a series where the "Real Winner" can sometimes be someone who only accomplished 15 laps for the weekend and who gets a free entry to a future race, takes home the most prize money of anyone, and where the fastest class gets the least amount of prize money...   I think they know what is the best narrative for the audience they would most like to attract.

Yes, the organizers like a good track battle as much as anyone, but I think they are giving it about as much air time as they feel they need to in order to communicate the message of the type of events they want to put on.

As for growth of the series: I had a (boring but inquisitive) conversation with Jay at the first Miller race about that and asked some business-related questions. When I spoke how it was my understanding that a business has to grow X% a year to simply maintain the same profit as the previous year, he said something to the effect of "I'd rather lose 2X% of profit each year to get rid of an X% of asshole teams like THAT one and THAT one (pointing to some teams across the paddock.who where in some well-prepared looking cars.

Jay and Nick have also said that the videos are a HUGE amount of work and they really don't attract many viewers, and that they mostly just preach to the converted.

Finally, probably the biggest celebrity to come out of LeMons is arguably SpeedyCop. And he's won... wait for it...

ONCE.

And people don't talk about him and LeMons for all of his class wins or fast lap times.

While he is certainly one heckuva driver, it's the other stuff that's made him and LeMons famous.

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

I'm not advocating that we focus on the winners as much as teams that have a chance to win. To give an example of what I'm thinking of, last year at Gingerman, Priority Fail got covered for swapping their engine to the rear and going slower. All good, a good story, but I was surprised that they didn't get any mention for sorting the swap enough to win class B two races later at Autobahn, taking the lead with something like 18 minutes left. While you could say that this is focusing on the winner, which is true, it also highlights an ill advised, lemony engine swap winning out over more traditionally prepared cars. I don't know why this didn't get any coverage, but I would hope that it wasn't purely because it would have involved focusing on a class winner.

I agree that a large part of the appeal of the series is that the coverage doesn't focus on the guy 5 laps ahead rather than anything interesting. However, I would like to see more of the teams that have made really interesting fixes that have actually worked for them. Something like a follow up on the heroic fix; win heroic fix one race, get some coverage on not blowing up at the next. IF the goal is expanded viewership, I think presenting stories that span multiple races would be a good start. Following the rambler is a good start to this. Also, while I understand not focusing on who won in class makes is a part of what defines the series, actively avoiding talking about teams that won a class seems unnecessary.

All of this is working under the assumption that Jay is trying to expand the series though. If he's not, then there's really no reason to change what he's doing. Most of us religiously watch the recap videos and thoroughly enjoy them.

On a complete side note, I think it would be kind of cool to have a competition before the races called the your sorry ass car died at the end of pit lane challenge, where teams get timed while having to sprint from one end of the paddock to the other to their car (turned off) and then push it all the way back. Or towing contests where the race car has to try to tow the tow vehicle that brought it to the track.

33 (edited by Guildenstern 2016-06-09 07:56 AM)

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

Spank wrote:

Finally, probably the biggest celebrity to come out of LeMons is arguably SpeedyCop. And he's won... wait for it...

ONCE.

Yes but it was once for each class, IOE, Org Choice, Judges Choice, and I think heroic fix? Oh and the Sebring Trophy!

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL) https://www.facebook.com/groups/MBTLracing/
88 Thunderbird "What's the word? Thunderbird!", "What's the Price? Thirty Twice!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

VanillaHaze wrote:

On a complete side note, I think it would be kind of cool to have a competition before the races called the your sorry ass car died at the end of pit lane challenge, where teams get timed while having to sprint from one end of the paddock to the other to their car (turned off) and then push it all the way back. Or towing contests where the race car has to try to tow the tow vehicle that brought it to the track.

Those sound more like Black Flag penalties to me.

If anything we need more of those with more and varied madness. I don't think people fear the Black Flag as much as they should anymore.

And it's entertaining as hell.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL) https://www.facebook.com/groups/MBTLracing/
88 Thunderbird "What's the word? Thunderbird!", "What's the Price? Thirty Twice!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

mackwagon wrote:
m610 wrote:

"Dr Pepper, the champagne of LeMons"

Dr Pepper is a  1/3 151 Rum, 2/3 Amaretto shot - boilermaker (drop the shot into a 12 ounce beer in a Beer Pint Glass.

I've always had the DR pepper drink above flaming (aka served with the 151 lit) -- which is entertaining as the counter you've accidentally splashed the 151 on also lights up as you make the drinks. This could be quite interesting in the pits.

-g

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Bosozoku Texino Thunderbird (1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing)

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

Guildenstern wrote:
Spank wrote:

Finally, probably the biggest celebrity to come out of LeMons is arguably SpeedyCop. And he's won... wait for it...

ONCE.

Yes but it was once for each class, IOE, Org Choice, Judges Choice, and I think heroic fix? Oh and the Sebring Trophy!

So that means that SpeedyCop is like the Danica Patrick of Lemons?
http://www.racing-reference.info/driver/Danica_Patrick

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Bosozoku Texino Thunderbird (1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing)

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

No he's actually won in more than one type of car.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL) https://www.facebook.com/groups/MBTLracing/
88 Thunderbird "What's the word? Thunderbird!", "What's the Price? Thirty Twice!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

I think this is absolutely true.   It keeps out the teams that probably won't get "it".  But I think it also keeps away teams that could get "it" in time.   I think our team gets "it", and we have no interest in coming to the track to wrench all weekend on a heap that wasn't prepared to race or doesn't have a hope of running all weekend.   We've done the very slow class "C" car thing, the crazy engine swap thing and now the underpowered "A" car thing.  The laid back atmosphere with good competition is what keeps us coming back. 

How do you attract teams like ours without getting the SCCA gunner hot-shoenagins?


Spank said,

" think the whole BS inspections and hammering teams and drivers who demonstrate that they don't "get it" (whether it be during inspection of black flag) makes it pretty clear that the stories and narrative the organizers (who are a whole crew of automotive journalists) want are NOT those that are speed and lap-centric. In a series where the "Real Winner" can sometimes be someone who only accomplished 15 laps for the weekend and who gets a free entry to a future race, takes home the most prize money of anyone, and where the fastest class gets the least amount of prize money...   I think they know what is the best narrative for the audience they would most like to attract. "

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

Then they can start in BumpCar for a while. get sick of having their car savaged, and in the process develop the zen of "it". Like distillation but with more smashed fenders.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL) https://www.facebook.com/groups/MBTLracing/
88 Thunderbird "What's the word? Thunderbird!", "What's the Price? Thirty Twice!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)

40 (edited by ninjacoco 2016-06-09 11:14 PM)

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

FWIW, I think the videos tend to rely on whatever footage they can get.

Want to see something in the wrap-up video? Film it and send them the files, especially if it's not a race where Phil and Jay show up.

41 (edited by littleturquoiseb 2016-06-21 02:02 PM)

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

http://i.imgur.com/jwpT9YL.jpg

Jeff
Three Pedal Mafia
Ombudsman - Coalition of Alternate Breakfast Meats

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

Spank wrote:

Finally, probably the biggest celebrity to come out of LeMons is arguably SpeedyCop. And he's won... wait for it...

ONCE.

And people don't talk about him and LeMons for all of his class wins or fast lap times.

While he is certainly one heckuva driver, it's the other stuff that's made him and LeMons famous.

Thanks for the kind words, Mike. I don't get on the forums much, so I'm just now seeing this, but I agree with you 100% that LeMons isn't about class wins and driver talent. It's about racing stuff that no other series would race, and making an entertaining spectacle of otherwise mundane endurance racing. Turning a fast lap in a Mini Moke is harder than doing it in a 911, even if the lap time is twice as slow. You have to fight for every hundreth of a second that much harder when pushing something not meant for track duties. Plus, not a lot of kids light up when seeing the umpteenth BMW go by, but let a plane roll by in a pack of cars, and they get excited. Personally, that's why I do what I do---it puts smiles on a lot of faces, including my own. I drove the plane to work in DC yesterday, and saw smiles on virtually everyone around me. Last time I drove it in (last fall), it had 1.6 million views on Reddit in 24 hours from some random shot in traffic that someone posted. Regular endurance race cars are fun, but they don't have that kind of entertainment value for those not driving.

Captain: Speedycop & The Gang Of Outlaws -'94 Mark VIII (Least Horrible Yank Tank Stafford '09, NOLA '10) '61 Caddy (Org Choice-NL '09) '63 Tbird (EPIC Repair Failure-Gingerman '10, I Got Screwed-Summit Pt '10, I.O.E. WINNER Stafford '10!) '77 Lancia Scorpion (I.O.E. WINNER Joliet 2010!) '67 Galaxie 500 (Judges Choice-CMP '11)
Future Fleet: 1957 Ford Prefect 1942 Buick 1959 Bugeye Project GLCOAT

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

With all due respect to Spank and Speedy...and although the organizers would love to have field filled with boats, planes, tractors, and what-ever...Lemons is carried by racers wanting to race by a very large margin.  Consider the last race at Thunderhill.  We had 180 entries.  A class had about 80 and B class had another 70.  C class?...16.

Lemons gives the race-to-wrench teams an opportunity to express themselves with their creations...absolutely nothing wrong with that.  But Lemons wouldn't survive without the wrench-to-race folks and, I believe, they are more interested in counting laps than counting smiles or spectators.

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

I didn't know that there were so (relatively) few Class C cars. . . does that mean that LeMons is getting less hopeless?  smile

For me, one of the big spectator draws of LeMons is the 'how did they do the impossible"?

- like get 3 Saab 900s on track at the same time (Altamont days, never saw it, but that was the siren's call for me)
-, or turn a pile o' car into Air Prance between Fri. and Saturday (double-take, for sure, since it got painted Fri. night - didn't look like the same car at all!!)
- or have Team Rustang _always_ just down the aisle at Sears, and _always_ just going out, turning laps, coming back in. 
- or even Southworst dyno out at stock power back at T-Hill and still sit in the top of A all the d*mn time.
- and Balto.  Why that design isn't a spec class yet I haven't the faintest idea (except the need to drive it at full boil all the time, I hear.)

There ain't no single answer here, as we all know - because there's so many 'races' and types of races going on that it's kinda like someone trying to get more visitors to the Smithsonian - there's already too much to take in if you're 'into' it.

But that said, the Smithsonian does lack beer and bacon.  So there's that.

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

Endurance racing is honestly fun only for the driver's and teams.  I LOVE racing, and even I get bored watching the BIG races like the 24 hours of LeMans, etc.  I most enjoy in-car footage, especially if I can see driver inputs and the traffic ahead in one shot.  I REALLY like watching slick passes, oh-poop moments and hearing the chatter between driver and crew.

If one could capture and summarize the best of these moments for every race (we all would have to distill our own vids) then you could really have something spectacular every week to watch.  Unfortunately, that would be impossible from a man-power standpoint.

Formula1 has really worked to add these things.  It adds to the excitement of watching the race.

Still.. I can dream a crap can series can do something similar.

Ultimately, the purpose would be to get people excited to come drive more than to come watch I think.

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

fleming95 wrote:

....... or even Southworst dyno out at stock power back at T-Hill and still sit in the top of A all the d*mn time....

Actually, Southworst was the car that dyno-ed the highest above stock of the 5 cars they put on the dyno.  I believe the Harlequin VW was the other car that came in above stock.  Cerveza, Eyesore and I think it was a 944 that dyno-ed at or below their factory stated HP number (or published in the case of Eyesore) which makes Cerveza and Eyesore the two that stand out as amazing that those two win so many..  All except Southworst were under 200hp.

but I get what you are saying.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita" 
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)
1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless)
1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites) (Sold -> Houston.  Gone and forgotten)

47 (edited by CPT_Trans_Continental 2016-06-27 10:49 PM)

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

rodknox2 wrote:

Lemons wouldn't survive without the wrench-to-race folks

We are all wrenching to race, I love how REAL racers always make it about them. I have raced the Baja 1000 and you know how many non-racing spectators are at the finish: none. Stop trying to make your life a reality show (or a light beer commercial) and be happy. JAGVAIR FOR LIFE FOOLS!

Judge's Choice - 2015 PNW - Most Heroic Fix - 2014 PNW 
Jagvair - fast and squishy - 1960 Corvair w/ 1993 Jaguar XJ6 moving bits
Transcontinental Drifters Facebook Page
Don't step on your dick.

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

rodknox2 wrote:

With all due respect to Spank and Speedy...and although the organizers would love to have field filled with boats, planes, tractors, and what-ever...Lemons is carried by racers wanting to race by a very large margin.  Consider the last race at Thunderhill.  We had 180 entries.  A class had about 80 and B class had another 70.  C class?...16.

Lemons gives the race-to-wrench teams an opportunity to express themselves with their creations...absolutely nothing wrong with that.  But Lemons wouldn't survive without the wrench-to-race folks and, I believe, they are more interested in counting laps than counting smiles or spectators.


Good points....but
For me (and some other teams) that bring class A and B cars, that are fairly fast and reliable (boring)....and make up 90% of the financial support of the race....I come to race in LeMons because of the Spankys, Speedys, Sputnikys, NSFers, etc. that make up the 10% Class C cars.  If it wasn't for those nuts that bring ridiculous cars, are amazing fabricators and creative mechanics, that truly represent the spirit of LeMons, and are a dying breed to behold, who are truly the ones keeping to the spirit of $500 crapcan racing alive....well....Lemons would be just like any other series....and would not be my first choice of budget racing league....and might be the end of LeMons.  For some like me, Class C is the reason the Class A and B teams come to race in LeMons as opposed to other series.
Cheers!  Here's to Class C!

Otherwise, is LeMons a spectator (?sport)?  Was Woodstock a concert? Is Burning Man an art exhibit?

I think that charging $30 to check out what the race is about and drop in, is too expensive and turns people away that might otherwise check it out and might end up being interested....how about $10? or $15 per day?

We don't need more spectators, we need more racing teams....especially Class C

Just my opinion....

Z

MarioKart Driving School: 1987 Honda Prelude Opus #28  (still can't win anything...)

49 (edited by CPT_Trans_Continental 2016-06-27 10:45 PM)

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

Okay, here's how to pay for broadcasting rights and hosts and go pros everywhere. Those REAL racers in Class A can increase their budgets 10 times to $5000, but their entry fees increase 10x also to $12000. Take that money to tape post race interviews of Class C podium racers. Remember it's just driving in a circle.

Judge's Choice - 2015 PNW - Most Heroic Fix - 2014 PNW 
Jagvair - fast and squishy - 1960 Corvair w/ 1993 Jaguar XJ6 moving bits
Transcontinental Drifters Facebook Page
Don't step on your dick.

50 (edited by Guildenstern 2016-06-28 09:38 AM)

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

That sure sucks if you end up getting lucky and accidentally win B though. Then you're stuck in A class or have to do drastic things to the car.

Also C is declining because unless you can make your own cages, and "know a guy" to get DOM, the cost is just too high now to justify showing up in something that may get 4 laps for most people. There's still a thriving lunacy of goofy themes and such in Class B. Heck half the cars you "think" are in class C are probably really in B because they are reliable enough to justify putting the time into.

But thank god we have people like SpeedyCop and Spank, and NSF, and Sputnick and their ilk to keep throwing good money at terribly bad cars for our joy.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL) https://www.facebook.com/groups/MBTLracing/
88 Thunderbird "What's the word? Thunderbird!", "What's the Price? Thirty Twice!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)