Topic: How can people sell their old Lemon for > $500?

I am putting together a team for 2017 and am shopping around for a car that has already run in a Lemons race as I am trying to avoid installing a cage/seat myself. Many of these old cars I see listed here on the forum for as much as $3000. How could anyone legally buy one of these to run in a future Lemons race where the rules say you can only spend $500 on a car(see the Lame-Ass rationalization in 4.4.1 regarding the car with a cage already in it)?

Re: How can people sell their old Lemon for > $500?

An already built Lemons car has several grand in safety equipment in it, which is budget exempt.

Re: How can people sell their old Lemon for > $500?

RoguePilot wrote:

I am putting together a team for 2017 and am shopping around for a car that has already run in a Lemons race as I am trying to avoid installing a cage/seat myself. Many of these old cars I see listed here on the forum for as much as $3000. How could anyone legally buy one of these to run in a future Lemons race where the rules say you can only spend $500 on a car(see the Lame-Ass rationalization in 4.4.1 regarding the car with a cage already in it)?


He does have a point.  There is a contradiction in the rules:

4.1: Total Investment in Vehicle Can Not Exceed $500: Except for items described in Rules 4.2 and 4.3, the total spent to purchase and prepare any car may not exceed $500.
4.1.1: Lame-Ass Rationalizations: Cars that "should be" worth $500 don't count; cars that "were worth $500" before you spent another $2000 to fix them don't count; cars you've owned for 20 years and spent more than $500 on during that time don't count;"it would have been worth $500 if it didn't already have a cage" doesn't count. Five hundred dollars means five hundred frickin' dollars.
4.1.2: Lame-Ass Rationalizations About Parts: Same deal. "Free" parts, parts given to you by your buddies, parts left lying around the shop...that crap doesn't impress us. It's worth whatever the last real guy paid in the last real purchase. Don't think you're clever.
4.2: Safety Equipment DOES NOT Count Toward $500 Total: Safety equipment described in Section 3 DOES NOT count toward the $500 total. "Safety" refers to things that can save the driver--not things that can save the car.


The reality is that they do not count the safety items in the car towards budget, and a select few other items, even when buying a used racecar.

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Re: How can people sell their old Lemon for > $500?

You get around this by buying the cage, safety equipment, and spares in a separate transaction. $500 for car, $2500 for everything else.

Re: How can people sell their old Lemon for > $500?

As said thrice before...car can be $1-500, cage, safety gear, spares, etc...unlimited.

Also as so oft repeated, do not worry about penalty laps your first (or first few) races...just have fun and get track time.

Re: How can people sell their old Lemon for > $500?

rlchv70 wrote:

You get around this by buying the cage, safety equipment, and spares in a separate transaction. $500 for car, $2500 for everything else.

I will say - I did see 1 posting of a car in this manner, but most are listed as the flat 3k, and I do agree - (MAYBE, we can get a judge speak officially on the matter) - previously Lemons raced vehicles, should be given some waiver for new teams (especially if they are new to Lemons racing)

Re: How can people sell their old Lemon for > $500?

icecoldkidd wrote:
rlchv70 wrote:

You get around this by buying the cage, safety equipment, and spares in a separate transaction. $500 for car, $2500 for everything else.

I will say - I did see 1 posting of a car in this manner, but most are listed as the flat 3k, and I do agree - (MAYBE, we can get a judge speak officially on the matter) - previously Lemons raced vehicles, should be given some waiver for new teams (especially if they are new to Lemons racing)

They kind already are. They know the car, and they know the history of said car (assuming it was memorable).  The best way to do it is to pay $1-$500 depending on condition for the car (no motor, or gearbox reduces worth of the car) , and the remainder is for safety. Have a bill of sale (in a very LeMon fashion) stating as such. After all that here is the big issue some people don't get, and this racks up penalty laps. Re-theme the car better than it was before, and make it your own. If you do that last bit well, nothing before even matters.

Re: How can people sell their old Lemon for > $500?

And as said people are putting $3 grand into cars and why should they loose thier rear by selling for $500?  We just finished our build, its not cheap

Re: How can people sell their old Lemon for > $500?

That statement in Rule 4.1.1 does confuse the issue. It doesn't seem to be enforced that way unless the rest of the car is cheaty, though.

Re: How can people sell their old Lemon for > $500?

Can someone come up with an appropriately LeMony Slide Rule? I mean an actual physical and functional slide rule. Perhaps it can be added to the Murilee Martin Lifestyle Brand.

Maybe it could be a penalty for people to have to come up with a "$500 My Ass!!1!1!!" Slide rule.

11

Re: How can people sell their old Lemon for > $500?

Not sure if this would be an official style rule, but if it was me, I would have the seller get an official residual value from Judge Phil.  Use this as the value of the car and provide the value for the new team to use at bs.  Whatever they pay for the safety and spares can be negotiated seperately.

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Re: How can people sell their old Lemon for > $500?

Ask any racer. Any real racer. It don't matter if you pay $500 or $3000 for a turn-key Lemons car, all that really matters is how cheaty the judges think it is.

Getting a residual value from Judge Phil is a good approach. However, he didn't look at any of that or our receipts last time and just told us humorous stories until he finally said, "well, I guess we should class this already" and put the usual score for our car and a not-cheaty-build. If it is known or a butt terrible car, they won't really care as much as if it is a competitive and previously built on the cheaty side of life.

Remember, the greatest power you can have is not caring if they give you laps and just get out there and race to have a good time, which would set you up for success for that whether or not they give you laps after looking at your paperwork/evidence/explanation.

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Re: How can people sell their old Lemon for > $500?

If you pay 5000.00 for a 1968 Lincoln, caged, you will receive Zero laps.

If you buy a Cheat e30 with Koni's for 500, plus 1000 for spares/cage you will get laps.

Pretty simple, shop for a crappy car.

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14

Re: How can people sell their old Lemon for > $500?

If a lemon has raced and not got busted for excess value- it's considered a $500 car.


Buy it, if you want it.

Time and labor don't count for anything.  If you're willing to pay $3000 for a $500 car that has $800 dollars of brakes and a $2200 cage - well, I'd say good for you.


If by chance they give you -5 laps for having a questionable car, take the laps, smile, agree that you are a cheater and go out and have a good time. 

This is good advice.

This space for rent.

15 (edited by RogueLeader 2016-07-13 09:06 AM)

Re: How can people sell their old Lemon for > $500?

Its already been established with the judges that selling a Lemon that has been raced and passed tech with 0 laps previously in this fashion is Kosher.  The way the rule was written was to avoid people buying former "real race cars" and trying to pass them off as $500 cars. 

I will interject since I am one of those sellers, the rollcage in my car cost a little over $3000 to put in and has been called one of the nicest cages in Lemons and in the case of the tech guy at Summit "better than what those IMSA and Grand Am cars have".  I would sooner cut up the car and cut the cage out than sell it for $500.  No I don't expect to get $3k back, but between that, the spares (wheels/tires, brakes, etc), other safety equipment (Detachable wheel, seat, padding, fire bottle, etc), the judges do agree that stuff is perfectly reasonable to count separately just as if you had bought a real "$500" car and paid someone to buy and install all that safety stuff.

That said they will look at an E30 or Miata even a formerly passing one much more than basically any other car.  But that even goes for a new build so its really no different.

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Re: How can people sell their old Lemon for > $500?

If you want to be safe, I would get the organizers to give the current owner a residual value on the car: that will establish the official value of the car for purposes of the $500 limit.  Then any amount you pay over the residual value shouldn't be an issue (until you make changes).

Paul, aka BuFord Hogswaller:  Team Captain, Team Bavarian Ranchero and Team Pink Lloyd

Re: How can people sell their old Lemon for > $500?

There are rules to guide you but the beauty of Lemons is that it is arbitrary.  The Judges can let a team go crazy on trying to make a really crappy car fast but will also tightly "manage" a team with an E30.  If you want to follow classing, building ,restricting rules then run SCCA. 

Here you need to get into th spirit and just get a car.  You may get penalty laps ... You also may not.  That's why we all love it.

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: How can people sell their old Lemon for > $500?

Most importantly is the Original Poster 'RoguePilot' part of 'RougeLeaders' Crew?    You know you got a little chubby when you saw that name Tom!

BTW all this starwars crap has to stop ... Didja see my new helmet?

http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l359/jfwake/13332815_10101030799042588_7810708747248962104_n_zps5xngbzgz.jpg

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Re: How can people sell their old Lemon for > $500?

Your helmet's beauty is eclipsed only by the wonder that is your pool.

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Re: How can people sell their old Lemon for > $500?

Yes, but what do they think of pork roll?

FWIW, I recently dug up an old piece I did on how much it costs to build a car--$3K is a song and a dance if it comes with all the safety gear.