Topic: Sounds stupid...but...clarify "$500"

Hey all!

Just heard about this race and I am super excited to take my shot at getting selected for an entry! I live right in Concord, NH so I am local for the Loudon race. Myself and my hopeful team are a bunch of motor heads so we know our way around a car.

My question is relative to the $500 price tag.

Scenario A:
....."1996 V6 Mustang with a blown head gasket. Runs but needs work to be on the road, $300 or best offer."

Say we buy that and do the head gasket fix and maybe some other small stuff. We only spent $480 on the build after buying the car for $250 cash and the extra $230 in parts required. After that car is running and ready for the road it is a $2,000 car pretty easy. How would that look to the judge at entry?

Scenario B:
We grab a '95 Taurus for $300 running and driving. I find an old OEM Saab Turbo for $80 on ebay and weld up a hot side put of crappy pipe from home depot and a $60 wastegate from ebay. Total build costs us $500. How would that look to the judge at entry?

Scenario C:
My aunt has a 95 BMW with a few dents in the quarter panels, doors, bumper and the seats are junk so she will sell it to me for $200 just because she wants it gone. I have a bill of sale to show what I paid. How would that look to the judge at entry?

Scenario D:
I find a foxbody that has a totally junk motor, rust on all the panels, and busted lights for $200. I buy that car, and a decent $300 ford 302 I find on Craigslist and swap it in. How would that look to the judge at entry?

Just trying to get a feel for what we should be expecting. This will help a lot when the time comes for a car search / build.

Any and all help is greatly appreciated and I cant wait to (hopefully) be part of this awesome event!

Pat

Re: Sounds stupid...but...clarify "$500"

Welcome!

Thanks for being interested in adhering strictly to the $500 rule and wanting to please the organizers and fellow teams.

I think your questions have been answered hundreds of times in various forms.

The abbreviated version:

Come to a race either as an arrive-and-drive or as a spectator. You will learn more in that weekend than we can type in a bajillon words.

If that's not something you want to do, then just go buy what you want, build it the way you want it, and come have fun with us.

3 (edited by cheseroo 2016-11-11 10:24 AM)

Re: Sounds stupid...but...clarify "$500"

In all the scenarios listed, as long as you get accepted you will be allowed to race.  The only remaining question is penalty laps.

A & B - you should have no issues, just keep documentation on everything.
C - will run afoul of the "lame ass rationalizations" clause and you'll need a spectacular theme to get the judges to overlook that.  (i.e. Look up the Homer BMW or the Bavarian Ranchero)
D - sounds like the path you are really keen on taking.  The issue is that there are 2 bbl low compression 302's and then there are 302's that look like this

http://www.mustangdepot.com/OnLineCatalog2/images/engine/331-SRX-lg.jpg


Guess which one is gonna give you problems with the judges?  And while the SBF has a better reputation for not blowing up than the SBC, I think they are still kinda blow-uppy.  The 4.6 is much better but you'll get more scrutiny from the judges.

I know spit about Mustangs but I believe the Mustang V6 has a good reputation for reliability in Lemons and if I was advising a new team, of your choices that's the one I would steer them towards.  I believe the trans in the Taurus is considered to be made of glass and I think you'd have problems there.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: Sounds stupid...but...clarify "$500"

I agree with Spank, but I will add that you should buy a prebuilt car before building your own.  Its is always cheaper to buy not build.  Expect to spend $2-3k on a well sorted pre-built car.  The cost to build one is $4000 or more for a first timer. 

As for the scenarios you said, here is just my opinion. 

A: If you track what you bought it for and what you spent it will probably have no problems at all with a reasonable theme. 

B: This would have no problems at all

C: Look for the prices of similar cars on craigslist.  Saying my buddy sold it to me for $XXX doesn't really fly when they are selling on CL for $2000.  Also since it is a BMW you will have additional scrutiny.  Having a really good theme will go a long way.

D: This would also be fine as long as you tracked you expenses.  And had a pretty good theme. 

Notice how theme was a component on all of these.  A good theme can make a cheaty car less so and a lack of theme can give your E30 extra laps.  Also if you bring a car that is very unique, rare, or particularly terrible there can be lots of leniency with the budget.  For instance the New Yorker a NHMS this year could have spent double or triple the budget and not have gotten a single lap.

But again I would buy not build.  Find a team that is offloading a car and run that.  It will be much more fun and you have a much higher chance of doing more than about 50 laps your first race.  If you do buy one, make a bill of sale for $500 for the car and then buy the safety gear for the rest of the price.  That's what my team did.

Moot Point Racing - 1991 Volvo 240 - #496

Re: Sounds stupid...but...clarify "$500"

A

You bought the car for $250.  Spent  $230 on parts, so your car is worth $480

B $300 on car, $140 on turbo parts. You also should include the raw materials for what you used to build the exhaust, but since you are at $440 you should be ok.

C. While you have bought it for $200,  The judges are aware of fair market value of cars so buying it off family member may not reflect what the value of the car is.

D. you document it you should be fine, however you have to document everything and being at exactly $500 you will probalby go over on other items you will need to get it to work.  This is not necessarily an issue since you have yet to use the selling parts off the car to bring the price down.  You can sell parts off the car that are not safety exempt to bring the original sale price of the vehicle lower.  So if you can sell the crappy motor or parts off the crappy motor you can lower your original purchase price.  You can not bring that value below 0 but it still would give you the option to try and sell $200 worth of parts to increase what you have to spend.

Racing 4 Nickels - 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
2011 SHOWROOM-SCHLOCK SHOOTOUT  IOE Winner
2012 The Chubba Cheddar Enduro Class C winner
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6 (edited by gunn 2016-11-11 12:48 PM)

Re: Sounds stupid...but...clarify "$500"

Pat:

* I have to imagine that all four options shoudl have enough sellable parts on them (except maybe Scenario D) to bring the price of the husk down to $0.

* Ever do an engine swap before? How about a swap from different makes? The Saab Turbo engine in a Taurus sounds like a stupid amount of work and $$$ since you'll need more than just the engine, exhaust piping, and an eBay wastegate.
An entire Saab donor car (not just the engine) would be ideal as you will need to review/swap/modify/kludge up the throttle linkage, the shift linkage, the axle/wheel hubs, engine mounts, the transmission (take the saab one of fabricate/buy an adapter plate to re-use the Taurus one), the engine wiring, and the dash wiring (to the gauge cluster). When I swapped a 5.0 V8  from a tbird donor into my tbird (same generation but the engine came pre-midcycle refresh vehicle and my chassis was a post-midcycle refresh) and there was a TON of little things to chase down. At least I didn't have to worry about the transmission/engine mounts and driveshaft (since RWD vs FWD).  A much better idea would be to race the Taurus AS-IS for the first race and THEN for your second race consider ghettocharging it,  swapping in a SHO motor, or going down the saab swap route for your second race.

* I also agree that you will get the most shit over the BMW unless you have a kickass theme

* If there's rust panels on Scenario D, you should also review if there's rust on areas like the floorplan and interior structure. Repairing that crap may bring up the cost (in time or $$) of your cage installation dramatically to make it race-ready.

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Ceci n'est pas une Citron Thunderbird ("This is not a lemon" but a 1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing + engine mounted frito maker)
2017 Sears Pointless Organizer’s Choice
Frito Making Tbird from 2018 Sears Pointless Engine Heat BBQ - http://goo.gl/csaet4

7 (edited by VKZ24 2016-11-11 01:40 PM)

Re: Sounds stupid...but...clarify "$500"

You said you know your away around a car, but do you know your way around a 14 hour race?  It's easy to build a car to last a couple of hours, but endurance racing is hard on equipment, so factor than in when deciding on your choice of scenario.  That said, Choices B and D are not the smartest ideas for longevity.  Choice C will get you the most scrutiny from the Judge for sure. That leaves Choice A, which IMO will be the least likely to go boom quickly, and/or overheat.

Just to remind you (in case you don't already know) there is no such thing as racing a $500 car.  Per the rules, yes.  Per actual money that leaves your wallet, not a chance in hell.  Don't forget that after you buy your $500 car it will need a legal roll cage, tires, brakes, race seat, harness, etc. not to mention the $$$ you'll need for your personal safety gear.  Last but not least, it will cost you right at $1500 just to show up.  Translation, the first race will most likely cost your team around $4000, probably more.   

I don't say any of the above the scare you away, just want you to be fully aware what you are getting into.  Once you're in, it's like crack and you'll never be the same.  I've been a part of this madness since 2008, so ask me how I know.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: Sounds stupid...but...clarify "$500"

I'd also just consider buying this car already done.  I can assure you it will be cheaper in the long run

http://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/viewt … p?id=34032

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: Sounds stupid...but...clarify "$500"

Buy a car that you enjoy and know something about, or want to learn about.  Sure, some cars are scrutinized more than others, but you're just starting out.  You're not winning anything your first race.  So penalty laps don't matter. The pointy end of A is faster than anything you are going to bring... period.  Plus, those teams have done several races to get to the point of winning. 

So, bring a junky car you like, don't worry about penalty laps, and have fun.

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: Sounds stupid...but...clarify "$500"

Sounds awesome. So awesome.

It sounds like we will give scenario A a shot with maybe a taste of B in there. Find a beat v6 stick car, and slap a turbo on there and run it! I have a good knowledge base with motor building, swaps, and mods. I also know my way around a TIG torch so we should be in good shape.

Thanks everyone for the tips and the guidance. Sounds like we need to come up with a totally bad ass theme... thinking cap time.

Re: Sounds stupid...but...clarify "$500"

Unrelated to the Lemon...but who doesn't love pictures right? Here are some shots of the Turbo 351w Capri i'm building. Shooting for 600 rwhp. Certainly not an endurance car!

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h235/Loudnfrdr24/12291843_10207980332609099_5854507815846950266_o_zpsgegmzokk.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h235/Loudnfrdr24/10633366_10208165192590483_8040710331675588392_o%201_zpsw42gxmk3.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h235/Loudnfrdr24/14882398_10210763197698987_9008043982419615158_o_zpsm0tilnpx.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h235/Loudnfrdr24/IMG_20161002_175942_zpswqknebkv.jpg

One pic of the Toyota flat bed I whipped up earlier this year too.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h235/Loudnfrdr24/20160508_123141_zps0jlyfxzj.jpg

Re: Sounds stupid...but...clarify "$500"

Nice builds.  Do anything except the e30, you'll be fine.

Silent But Deadly Racing-  Ricky Bobby's Laughing Clown Malt Liquor Thunderbird , Datsun 510, 87 Mustang (The Race Team Formerly Known as Prince), 72 Pinto Squire waggy, Parnelli Jones 67 Galaxie, Turbo Coupe Surf wagon.(The Surfin Bird), Squatting Dogs In Tracksuits,  Space Pants!  Roy Fuckin Kent and The tribute to a tribute to a tribute THUNDERBIRD/ SUNDAHBADOH!