1 (edited by trigun7469 2016-11-26 05:10 PM)

Topic: Purchasing a circle track race car to run Lemons

Thinking about Purchasing a circle track race car to run Lemons. My main concern are the cage, but what else should I be mindful of? Here are a couple local to me.

http://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/cto/5832058067.html

http://akroncanton.craigslist.org/cto/5876078365.html

Re: Purchasing a circle track race car to run Lemons

As you have already said, the roll cage is the biggest concern, as it tends to be one of the most expensive and labor intensive parts on the car. And from what I have seen, nearly all of the cages built for circle track cars don't pass Lemons tech. The Honda you have posted for example, would need new down bars (curving the bar around the dash as seen in photo #11 is a no-no), new back stays (they should not extend beyond the rear wheel centerline nor should they cross), and is missing a diagonal support for the main hoop.
Also check out the fuel systems. Lemons requires either the stock tank and related components in their original location or a FIA rated fuel cell with a bladder and foam. A box with a fuel pump sticking out of it just won't cut it.
Another thing to look out for is compromised crumple zones. Lemons doesn't want to see severely hacked up cars or massive battering rams welded to them.

Other things to consider are stuff like tires that stick out past the fenders, under supported lexan or mesh screen windshields, welded up doors that make exiting in emergency situations difficult, and a few other smaller concerns.
While it is possible to get a circle track car prepped for Lemons duty, it's usually just easier to build one from scratch.

Fourteen time loser. You'd think I'd know better by now.

Re: Purchasing a circle track race car to run Lemons

Just to clarify, an FIA cell is only required if you can't fully separate it with a firewall from the cockpit.

Re: Purchasing a circle track race car to run Lemons

Most cages made for any other series won't pass Lemons tech (because most series don't enforce their own rules so well), so it's a good idea to send photos of the cage of any prospective car to Chief Tech Guy John Pagel before you buy.

Re: Purchasing a circle track race car to run Lemons

Would be a much better idea to simply buy a previous Lemons car. That is what my team does and we actually currently selling two of our Lemons compliant Hondas.

Re: Purchasing a circle track race car to run Lemons

I would second the buying a previous Lemons car.  There are tons of them out there, especially if you are willing to drive a bit.   

Another problem you will run into is Rule 4.1.1

4.1.1: Lame-Ass Rationalizations: Cars that "should be" worth $500 don't count; cars that "were worth $500" before you spent another $2000 to fix them don't count; cars you've owned for 20 years and spent more than $500 on during that time don't count; "it would have been worth $500 if it didn't already have a cage" doesn't count. Five hundred dollars means five hundred frickin' dollars.

The bold is where you will run into a problem.  Most people are fine when they buy an old Lemons car for $2k and then say that they spent $1500 on safety.  However it will be hard to justify spending $2k on a circle track car and saying its a $500 car because the cage was worth $XXX but I have to cut it out and replace it.

Moot Point Racing - 1991 Volvo 240 - #496

Re: Purchasing a circle track race car to run Lemons

I see things in both of those CL cars' rollcages that would fail tech and need major redesign or starting from scratch, basically. Check out RacingJunk here for already-built Lemons cars here:

http://www.racingjunk.com/category/4520 … -Sale.html

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

Re: Purchasing a circle track race car to run Lemons

We have our hondas listed their.

I will make you a smoking deal on a package.

Re: Purchasing a circle track race car to run Lemons

My experience:
I purchased a Prelude on the Chump Forum, from a team that used it for one Chump race.  They purchased it from a Circle Track team, and fixed it up.  Looked like a good deal, so I bought it for $2500, not knowing any better....
I suspect the Chump people told them they could only use it for one race, since the cage does not look like it would pass Chump cage inspection either.  After the one Chump race, they decided to sell it (and in their ad said it would pass Lemons tech...).

The main problem was with the cage.    Mine is well built, solid, good welds, NASCAR style, thicker/wider tubing, reinforced on passenger side, etc., but not up to Lemons regulations.
Mainly, the back stays needed to be moved forward.  Cost me almost $1000. 
Also, the vertical post behind the driver seat was not welded with a plate to the floor properly.  After several races (that Jay kindly let us attend, with a stipulation that the cage would be reinforced to his liking for the next race), and several trips to the welder guy (I needed to take it back to the welder to weld the cage in several places to attach it to the car body= more $), I finally had so many welds of the cage to the body of the car, that Jay and John Pagel said it would be fine (that cage is never coming out!!).  Since then, I never have any problems in tech, but I always bring a copy of the email correspondences, and proof of our attendance at previous races.

Otherwise, the car was fine: stock tank, seat was fine, belts were fine, plexiglass windshield, welded doors, etc.  I took the net out of the drivers side.  And runs well, easy for an amateur to repair, only the usual failures, and average Class B car.

And it does not matter what I paid for it, or what the cage cost, and despite a few other fixer upper upgrade items....I get no penalty laps...cuz it looks like a $500 piece of junk

In the end, it all worked out fine.  And I have no regrets. But it all could have been easier, and maybe cheaper....live and learn

Z

MarioKart Driving School: 1987 Honda Prelude Si (Opus #28) 
Loudon, NH 2014 - Millville, NJ, Lightening 2019 (RIP)
New and improved: 1987 Honda Prelude Si (Opus #11) Pittsburgh, PA 2021 - ??
and finally won something, Class C Win: Loudon, NH 2022

Re: Purchasing a circle track race car to run Lemons

MZAVARIN wrote:

...plexiglass windshield...

I hope you mean polycarbonate, such as Lexan, because plexiglass is acrylic and won't pass Rule 3.J.1.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally

Re: Purchasing a circle track race car to run Lemons

Yes, I meant Lexan/polycarbonate!

MarioKart Driving School: 1987 Honda Prelude Si (Opus #28) 
Loudon, NH 2014 - Millville, NJ, Lightening 2019 (RIP)
New and improved: 1987 Honda Prelude Si (Opus #11) Pittsburgh, PA 2021 - ??
and finally won something, Class C Win: Loudon, NH 2022

12 (edited by -SDR- 2016-12-01 06:39 AM)

Re: Purchasing a circle track race car to run Lemons

Pros and cons....

I found my Lemons 1977 Pinto as an old retired non-running 1980 circle track Pinto a little better than a year ago.  The car was on C/L about 30 miles away, and was had for very little money.  It came with more spare parts and sheet metal than I think I will ever use.

The cage was a concern, but I knew that so much other work was already done that even if I had to swap it out I would come out ahead.  It had my favorite 2x3 box tubing down both rockers with the cage attached to them.  With new main hoop stays, and some other minor details, it should have passed tech. without issue, but I decided to go ahead and cut the roof off and remove it.  Before I started I sent some photos and details about the car to get approval, and it was granted.   I also sent some during the build process, including dealing with the fuel cell protection (see below).

The car also had full front and rear hoops to deal with, the front was easy as it was just remove it all, but the rear meant figuring out a way to keep the structure around the 12 gallon cell that was already in there and keep it isolated from the cage.  Photos taken and design approved. 

A DOM cage kit from Roll Cage Components was then ordered and installed, then the roof put back on.  The 2x3 box tube was also approved, it just needed proper spreader plates installed as if the box was not there.  EZ enough.  It was a great kit.  The only thing is that despite me telling them how tall to make the cage they sent it taller.  Not that it was a big deal, but I would have liked to talk about it more first.

I was able to sell the old cage to a circle track guy and get back most of what I paid for the car, but too bad it did not count.

Another thing was removing the suspension modifications that helped it turn only to the left. 


All said and done, for me, with THIS car, I think it was worth the hassle of dealing with the 'conversion' VS just building it from scratch.  There was enough here to work with, but it might not be the case every time.   You can score some 'go-fast' and spare parts, but as mentioned, every track and/or sanctioning body has their own rules that they might or might not enforce. 

Any car you look at needs to be gone over VERY WELL!!!  Bring at least one more pair of eyes, and a printed version of the Lemons rules, then look the car over as if you were the tech. at a race and this car's owner has just pissed you off.


Bill

2020 I.O.E. CT #36 The Rootes Of All Evil,1958 Sunbeam Rapier Convertible (YES 1958!!) & 2019 Judges Choice NJMP
2016 Thompson Speedway #36 Sabrina Duncan's Revenge, IOE Trophy, 5th Place 'C' Class 1977 Ford Pinto
2009 Stafford Motor Speedway #16 Team Teflon, 11th Place (overall) 1997 Saturn SL2

Re: Purchasing a circle track race car to run Lemons

Well said Bill.....