76 (edited by fuhrius 2010-03-08 05:15 PM)

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

Context: endurance race for fun with 100+ other drivers of questionable ability / training in cars you know suck on a race course that you know is dangerous / leaves little room for error.

Goal: get to the end in one piece and have fun.

I don't think it's a question of which one of the drivers is at fault...they're both at fault.
- the cavalier driver should not have put himself in that position if he understood the context and the goal
- the maxima driver doesn't appear to know what he's doing - par for the course at Lemons

I hope the cavalier driver has a complete recovery...you know it won't be speedy...so 'complete' is about as good as you can hope for.

I hope the rest of the drivers adopt the best $600 insurance policy for your neck that you can buy - a HANS. I don't work for them, but I wouldn't be out there without one, personally.

Last note: not to bag on people too much here, but how telling is it that the guy associated with the maxima team defends his team by saying that they didn't have that many black flags and that they were mostly 'only' for passing under yellow. Uh, do you not get why it's a bad idea to pass under yellow?

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

ifb_mole wrote:

Then by what Rick told me, the Hooked On Driving course taught him (rightfully) to always look up the track, which is what he was doing. 

Rick did not check his mirrors to see where the Cavalier was, he was looking up the track and at the Miata, so as he moved over  to his right, he was shutting the door right as Tyler was making his pass. Clearly the Cavalier was passed Rick on drivers right, but since Rick was looking so far up the track, Rick told me that it seemed as though the Cavalier appeared “out of nowhere” and by the time he saw Tyler, it somewhat surprised him and they touched before he could move slightly to the left (or stop moving to his right).

SITUATIONAL AWARENESS IS PARAMOUNT on a racetrack.
You DO NOT change your line of travel into the path of a faster moving car at the last second. You must yield.

ifb_mole, you said it all when you said "Rick did not check his mirrors to see where the Cavalier was, he was looking up the track..." If you change your racing line into someone else's, you are responsible for the outcome, regardless of how risky the pass the other car was attempting may have seemed. Rick did not check, or he wouldn't have struck a car that was already nearly past him. We know there are tremendous speed differences in Lemons. We know there are tremendous skill differences in Lemons. You must ALWAYS drive defensively, and watch out for other drivers.

I've worked a lot of crashes in 15 years as a cop. We don't usually have the luxury of video evidence. Even without it, given the factors involved, the Maxima would be determined to be the primary vehicle at fault. It failed to yield to the overtaking vehicle. It failed to "change lanes" safely by checking mirrors, or turning the head to look. It went right because Rick assumed either the coast was clear, or the other driver(s) would yield. Either way, that makes him wrong. I mean no offense to him, I just call things as I see them, and I'm trained in accident investigation. There, but for the grace of God, go any of us. Racing incidents happen. They are usually preventible, though not always. This one was most certainly preventible.

Jay has to look out for the good of the masses, not just the desire of one team. We all want this series to flourish. For that to happen, he has to keep injuries (and liability) to a bare minimum. If a particular car cannot seem to keep from contacting other cars, it will inevitably come to his attention, and be addressed. If it causes a serious injury accident, it should be prevented from coming back out on the racetrack. He doesn't want to lose his insurance carriers just because your team wants to keep racing.

This could happen to anyone. One moment of inattention, and disaster can strike. The way to prevent that is to never have a moment of inattention while racing. Easier said than done, I know, but that's how it has to be, for the safety of all the participants. My cousin had one moment of inattention, then sent tires from the tire wall into orbit at Nelson Ledges to avoid striking other vehicles. He did quite a number on my vintage Caddy in the process, and he still feels bad about it. I don't want him to, but he does. None of us wants Rick to feel bad, any more than we want Tyler to suffer. Johnny and Phil, on average, have to keep 400+ drivers in line, and keep them from acting like idiots on track. While they may try to make it fun, when they tell you yours was a bonehead move, there's a reason.

Taking responsibility for your actions is critical in an incident such as this. Johnny said that Rick did not. That was his undoing. We can all learn from it. CHECK YOUR MIRRORS. WHEN IN DOUBT, ERR ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION. OWN YOUR MISTAKES.

Do these things, and you will stay out of Johnny and Phil's hair, on Jay's good side, and in the race.

Captain: Speedycop & The Gang Of Outlaws -'94 Mark VIII (Least Horrible Yank Tank Stafford '09, NOLA '10) '61 Caddy (Org Choice-NL '09) '63 Tbird (EPIC Repair Failure-Gingerman '10, I Got Screwed-Summit Pt '10, I.O.E. WINNER Stafford '10!) '77 Lancia Scorpion (I.O.E. WINNER Joliet 2010!) '67 Galaxie 500 (Judges Choice-CMP '11)
Future Fleet: 1957 Ford Prefect 1942 Buick 1959 Bugeye Project GLCOAT

78 (edited by Mulry 2010-03-08 06:10 PM)

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

+1 to Speedycop.

I suspect that TARP Racing (at least the Dallas-based car) is about to enact a neck-brace-mandatory rule. I've been on the brink of making that call for the last 2 races but this pretty much cuts it.

The other observation that I have from this is that everyone should go into a race anticipating that they will be in a fire and should suit up accordingly. Cutting corners on safety gear is a fool's game.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

79 (edited by Spinnetti 2010-03-08 06:19 PM)

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

So, this is Lemons right? whatever happened to "its everybody's fault".... seems to me, that the he was already moving right when the cavalier came up, and he stuffed in there anyway.... In SCCA, its the responsibility of the passing car to make a clean pass - but this is Lemons. So, if everybody's at fault, than this whole thread doesn't make much sense as none of the folks should have made that whole scene happen right?

I prefer that everybody just drive their own race. Unless they are deliberately blocking, I'll get by when there is room, so no need to fight for position with anybody.

"Don't mess with Lexas!" LS400. We survived another one! See website link for build details.
Maker of the "unofficial Lemons fish!" - If you ask nice, I'll likely give you one at the track.

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

I'm sure the doctor would know best if it was a forward or side-to-side neck injury, but a HANS device would have only helped for the for the initial hit.  The side-to-side hits when he rolls looked awfully violent, too.  A head-containment seat and/or right side net completes the picture.

We're going to have both for the next race.  It was scary as shit seeing him on his knees next to the car and even scarier seeing him on the backboard behind the ambulance.  I was just happy to not see a helicopter arrive.  I've seen that 3 too many times...

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

Speedy Cop
So it is legal to pass a slower moving car from the #2 lane...(maxima #1, cavalier #2 someone else #3) here in CA it "might" get you a ticket

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21754.htm

Richard Doty
1984 Porsche 928 "Estate"
Porsche- "there is A substitute" Racing
Dirt Poorsche Racing #2

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

Speedycop wrote:
ifb_mole wrote:

Then by what Rick told me, the Hooked On Driving course taught him (rightfully) to always look up the track, which is what he was doing. 

Rick did not check his mirrors to see where the Cavalier was, he was looking up the track and at the Miata, so as he moved over  to his right, he was shutting the door right as Tyler was making his pass. Clearly the Cavalier was passed Rick on drivers right, but since Rick was looking so far up the track, Rick told me that it seemed as though the Cavalier appeared “out of nowhere” and by the time he saw Tyler, it somewhat surprised him and they touched before he could move slightly to the left (or stop moving to his right).

SITUATIONAL AWARENESS IS PARAMOUNT on a racetrack.
You DO NOT change your line of travel into the path of a faster moving car at the last second. You must yield.

ifb_mole, you said it all when you said "Rick did not check his mirrors to see where the Cavalier was, he was looking up the track..." If you change your racing line into someone else's, you are responsible for the outcome, regardless of how risky the pass the other car was attempting may have seemed. Rick did not check, or he wouldn't have struck a car that was already nearly past him. We know there are tremendous speed differences in Lemons. We know there are tremendous skill differences in Lemons. You must ALWAYS drive defensively, and watch out for other drivers.

I've worked a lot of crashes in 15 years as a cop. We don't usually have the luxury of video evidence. Even without it, given the factors involved, the Maxima would be determined to be the primary vehicle at fault. It failed to yield to the overtaking vehicle. It failed to "change lanes" safely by checking mirrors, or turning the head to look. It went right because Rick assumed either the coast was clear, or the other driver(s) would yield. Either way, that makes him wrong. I mean no offense to him, I just call things as I see them, and I'm trained in accident investigation. There, but for the grace of God, go any of us. Racing incidents happen. They are usually preventible, though not always. This one was most certainly preventible.

Jay has to look out for the good of the masses, not just the desire of one team. We all want this series to flourish. For that to happen, he has to keep injuries (and liability) to a bare minimum. If a particular car cannot seem to keep from contacting other cars, it will inevitably come to his attention, and be addressed. If it causes a serious injury accident, it should be prevented from coming back out on the racetrack. He doesn't want to lose his insurance carriers just because your team wants to keep racing.

This could happen to anyone. One moment of inattention, and disaster can strike. The way to prevent that is to never have a moment of inattention while racing. Easier said than done, I know, but that's how it has to be, for the safety of all the participants. My cousin had one moment of inattention, then sent tires from the tire wall into orbit at Nelson Ledges to avoid striking other vehicles. He did quite a number on my vintage Caddy in the process, and he still feels bad about it. I don't want him to, but he does. None of us wants Rick to feel bad, any more than we want Tyler to suffer. Johnny and Phil, on average, have to keep 400+ drivers in line, and keep them from acting like idiots on track. While they may try to make it fun, when they tell you yours was a bonehead move, there's a reason.

Taking responsibility for your actions is critical in an incident such as this. Johnny said that Rick did not. That was his undoing. We can all learn from it. CHECK YOUR MIRRORS. WHEN IN DOUBT, ERR ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION. OWN YOUR MISTAKES.

Do these things, and you will stay out of Johnny and Phil's hair, on Jay's good side, and in the race.

You are 100% right and Rick has admitted the error of failing to check his mirrors more frequently ESPECIALLY when moving more than a few inches off line.  The video shows Rick starting to move to his right before Tyler started his pass BUT Rick still should have glanced in his mirrors and seen Tyler coming.  I just installed a 5 panel wink mirror and we have the 2 outside mirrors, 7 in all, so there really isn't a blind spot. Also by Rick's own admission to me he was looking way up the track while he was still moving to his right and there was contact as the Cavalier  passed by.  Had he checked his mirrors or been more situationally aware as you say, the contact could have easily been avoided.  Rick, once he saw the video, took responsiblity for his actions.  From Rick's perspective the Cavaliers path was on a direct trajectory course to a collision with him.  Again Rick was moving to the right of the Miata just ahead and admitted he kept moving right as Tyler was passing him and from his perspective the Cavalier hit him.  He isn't making excuses he has admitted he erred.

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

Just to clarify/throw fuel on fire, the ban was a two stage process.

1) There was the video.

2) Jay wanted the driver to say, "I'm sorry about what happened." Instead he was fed a tale of SCCA-style nonsense about the cavalier coming across some imaginary line.

Jay's decision was based largely on point #2.

"This is the scene where I get shot," Bronson said. "I have these little squibs that explode to make it look like bullets are hitting." "Fascinating," said Bergman. "I never knew how they did that." "You mean," asked Bronson, "you don't use machine guns in your movies?"

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

icemang17 wrote:

Speedy Cop
So it is legal to pass a slower moving car from the #2 lane...(maxima #1, cavalier #2 someone else #3) here in CA it "might" get you a ticket

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21754.htm

A racetrack IS NOT a public highway.

You can pass wherever IT IS SAFE TO DO SO on a racetrack, provided, of course, there are no track-specific rules regarding not passing in certain places.

Captain: Speedycop & The Gang Of Outlaws -'94 Mark VIII (Least Horrible Yank Tank Stafford '09, NOLA '10) '61 Caddy (Org Choice-NL '09) '63 Tbird (EPIC Repair Failure-Gingerman '10, I Got Screwed-Summit Pt '10, I.O.E. WINNER Stafford '10!) '77 Lancia Scorpion (I.O.E. WINNER Joliet 2010!) '67 Galaxie 500 (Judges Choice-CMP '11)
Future Fleet: 1957 Ford Prefect 1942 Buick 1959 Bugeye Project GLCOAT

85

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

Judge Jonny wrote:

Just to clarify/throw fuel on fire, the ban was a two stage process.

1) There was the video.

2) Jay wanted the driver to say, "I'm sorry about what happened." Instead he was fed a tale of SCCA-style nonsense about the cavalier coming across some imaginary line.

Jay's decision was based largely on point #2.

Well that driver's reaction certainly doesn't give you any warm and fuzzies about the next time this situation comes up for him...

Jer / Schumacher Taxi Service
2010 Spring CMP I.O.E. winner
2010 Sebring overall winner
1996 Miata, 1991 BMW E30, 1987 coROLLa (retired), 1984 Citation (retired), 1993 Miata (retired)

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

fuhrius wrote:

Last note: not to bag on people too much here, but how telling is it that the guy associated with the maxima team defends his team by saying that they didn't have that many black flags and that they were mostly 'only' for passing under yellow. Uh, do you not get why it's a bad idea to pass under yellow?

I need to publicly apologize and admit to all my fellow-racers that I have made bad choices in my selection of team mates.  Though I have been black-flag free, my mates have not so I need to accept some of the blame in this matter too, so my aplogies to all, especially Tyler the ONSET team, the Judges and Jay Lamm.

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/lmlmQXbQnTE&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/lmlmQXbQnTE&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Cars, cameras, and easy living...

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

I can't resist the impulse to add to this, in some stupid way thinking it may make a difference. So you who disagree with me can publicly berate me at the track in person. And you are even welcome to hit me in the face with an open hand, ....after I put my helmet on!

All of our actions as humans are judged partially by our past. History is taken in to account, fair or not is up to you each to judge, but I don't know anyone who does not reflect upon an individuals past behavior when judging their current actions.

For those who simply look at the in car video (there are several already circulating), it may very well appear to be a racing incident. And if I look at it, with no thought to either driver or team, or to the fact that it is a Lemons race, I would call it a racing incident caused by 1. the driver of a fast car making an aggressive pass, approaching a tight braking zone. 2. another driver not situationaly aware, moving over with a fast overtaking car heading for the same opening. 3. closing in walls.

But, and this is a heavy Butt, when you consider the individual teams and drivers and their histories, you cannot help but be influenced. With all due respect to all the individuals on both teams and to the good guys on the Maxima's team, the Maxima does have a short but heavily flagged past. I was at Thunderhill, our car was not contacted by the Maxima but it was passed twice under yellow. I was in the penatly box listening to the excuses and some what arrogant attitude of some drivers on the Maxima team at Thunderhill. I personally witnessed from the Maxima what I judged to be aggressive and reckless driving at T-Hill.

Friday at Infineon, I watched the Maxima in Practice and said "Wow that thing is even faster, and he's making aggressive passes in practice!  What is he going to be like in the race!" I told my team "Stay away from the Maxima! If you see him let him go!" "Those guys are going to cause problems!" I am sorry to the team Captain of the Maxima as I am certain he is very sorry for what has occured and I am sure the driver is very sad as well. But like I tell my son, "You will be judged by those you hang out with" "Your buddies may rob the liquor store while you are outside talking to your girlfriend on the phone, but you are going to jail just like them"

I do not think the incident was only the Maxima's fault but, there is a history. 

We did paddack near the Cavalier team, finding them to be cheerful nice guys who were happy to lend us a hand.  I think they have completed 11 events. We wish the driver a full recovery and I do wish the Maxima team well in the future. I have no comments about the judges or Jays decision because it is their event and it is up to them Alone to decide. As for me ...Yup I am influenced by the history I have seen.

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

craznoe wrote:

Amen to that.  I debated just getting foam collars for my drivers.  Then I took a look at the wives and kids that would be affected by an injury and thought that money really wasn't important.

thanks for that by the way...

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

I have no problem with your post. The team at Infineon was drastically different than at Thunderhill, as to Friday practice, well I hope it wasn't me you were talking about, LOL!! I don't recall making any "aggressive" passes in practice since the session I was in, the track was pretty empty.  I do recall for about 5-6 laps the Cavalier wagon, the Geo Metro and I were playing around for awhile and I saw first hand how fast the Cavalier was.

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

***Help For Tyler***

If there is not a *help for Tyler* fund I am going to start it by pledging the first $100.00 to help with medical bills, lost work and the like.  Regardless if you find him at fault or not, we are all (Lemons) racers and any one of us could be put in this situation.   

For those of you who do not know, Tyler runs a one man motorcycle repair shop in Oakland.

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

someperson wrote:

***Help For Tyler***

If there is not a *help for Tyler* fund I am going to start it by pledging the first $100.00 to help with medical bills, lost work and the like.  Regardless if you find him at fault or not, we are all (Lemons) racers and any one of us could be put in this situation.   

For those of you who do not know, Tyler runs a one man motorcycle repair shop in Oakland.

so put the name and location of it up, and help will arrive.....

93 (edited by someperson 2010-03-08 09:50 PM)

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

Here is the location:
Tyler Carson
c/o Hayasa Motorbikes
430 E 10th St
Oakland, CA 94606

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

Fault has been established... So all I have to say is atleast he didn't ban the whole team.

Sons of STIG
Judge Jonny, "So, what's the next formerly thought to be immune from winning that will steal the nickels?An MR2? A Fierro (ha ha ha)? A Datsun/Nissan Z? A Camaro?"

95

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

So nobody seems to know the passing rules?  I think Spinetti offered above that in SCCA it's the passing driver's responsibility to make a clean pass, but of course this isn't SCCA.   My take on this is that it should be assumed that anyone on the left side of the track will be moving right at some point between T10 and T11 and that was a bad pass.  The Maxima appeared to turn in an odd manner, presumably to avoid the BMW in front, but to pin 100% of the blame on him doesn't seem right.  I am NOT saying that Tyler got what he deserved.  I would not wish what happened to him on anyone and pray for a speedy recovery.   And apparently there might be some history behind the Maxima that contributed to the decision.  But in a vacuum, it doesn't seem like it was all his fault.

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

DaveH wrote:

I'll stand by my statement that he got screwed though.  If that had been a grass field instead of a concrete wall it would have been 100 "I will check my mirrors on a regular basis" with a sharpie instead of a lifetime ban.

That is EXACTLY why you need to be more careful when there are walls around. You have to think of this when you're on the track.

-Dave

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

GnomeFabTech wrote:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/lmlmQXbQnTE&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/lmlmQXbQnTE&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

I think alex was trying to say this:

http://www.youtube.com/v/lmlmQXbQnTE&hl=en&fs=1

-Dave

98 (edited by magnusracing 2010-03-09 01:38 PM)

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

Well... what it really comes down to is that it was an unfortunate accident. Neither driver intentionally caused the incident.

I think it's a shame the whole Maxima team was "banned for life" from Lemons. This could have happened to ANYONE. Jay has a really good thing going for him with this race and many of us enjoy it very much also. The one thing that could bring it all to a screeching hault would be a serious accident and the resulting lawsuits / insurance problems. So if I was in Jay's shoes I could understand how he felt about it at the time.

Pendejo Engineering "Captain" - 1991 Alfa 164
1983 Shaguar XJ-S V-12 "The Two Ton Miata"
1995 Mercedes S600 V-12  - First car ever CLAIMED by JAY!
1980 Maserati Quattroporte - Judge's Choice

99 (edited by sergio 2010-03-09 04:36 PM)

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

You know it's a tough decision to make. At the Oct. MSRH race I fucked up royaly on Saturday going for a hole that was not really there. At the time we were in 2nd place, but I didn't know that little bit of info. If I had, I would have waited and passed at a better time.
At the next race that image was fresh in my mind. Wait for a good clean pass with a way to find an out if it turned bad. Drive smart. Like they say, you can't win the race at the next turn, but you sure as hell can loose it there. Sure winning one of these races doesn't mean shit. But man it sure is cool to stand there next to Jay and the Judges getting your trophy.

To me, Tyler should have waited for a better oportunity to pass. The Maxima, was just trying to get past a couple of cars. Then here comes a divebomb that he never saw. That the Maxima driver didn't admit to fault? Well that's racin......

Wow! Will this thread ever end??????

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

Everyone suffers from "red mist"....Lemons racing is NO different...

I tell ALL of my drivers (especially me)....when in doubt DON'T DO IT....there will be other chances to pass.....always....ALWAYS think "Save the car"......like Judge Johnny has said before....1 bad pass WILL end your race.....that one position is NEVER worth it.....

At the end of the day we all want to go home to our families....not have them visit us in the hospital...!!!

Richard Doty
1984 Porsche 928 "Estate"
Porsche- "there is A substitute" Racing
Dirt Poorsche Racing #2