1 (edited by HulaJack 2010-03-28 04:13 PM)

Topic: Auto or Manual?

Which transmission is recommended for a first time racer? Three of our four (maybe five) drivers already knows how to drive a stick well, two of the three have actual racing experience, and we have time to teach the other two. But which tranny would give us a better chance of finishing the race? Assume an '80s Volvo 240

It should also be noted that ALL OF US know the benefits of a manual transmission, being able to conserve fuel if we need to, better engine control, better car control, etc. But having our clutch burn out four hours in isn't a very enticing scenario either, hence the question

Re: Auto or Manual?

I don't know Volvo autos, but in general a manual is much better suited to deal with racetrack abuse.  Keeping an auto cool is the key.  You'd likely have to have a large cooler.  I'm not saying you can't make an auto live, but you have a much better chance with a manual.

BRE Datsun (Broke Racing Effluence) formerly Dawn of the Zed Racing
'74 260Z
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Re: Auto or Manual?

Not knowing anything about volvo automatics or who makes them....  heres my reasoning racing a 928 with an automatic

The automatic used in the 928's is a Mercedes unit that is well known to last a very long time when kept COOL....so that's what we did....put a mondo cooler on it and it NEVER gets hotter than 190F when racing....so in theory the ATF should last just about forever (I'll change it once a year anyway)

The downsides of the automatic are its heavier than the manual by about 50lbs and of course the torque converter sucks some HP....but I think the reliability of the automatic with the ease of driving it outweighs converting to a 5 speed....well that and the fact that 928 5 speeds are well known to have synchro & clutch  problems.....

Since you are running a Volvo...it is VERY easy to swap in a 5 speed and many other teams had done it with success.....some with V8 engines & T5 transmissions...so it can be done and be reliable.....

Richard Doty
1984 Porsche 928 "Estate"
Porsche- "there is A substitute" Racing
Dirt Poorsche Racing #2

Re: Auto or Manual?

We had problems with our clutch from not getting completely off the pedal before getting on the gas. Once we figured that out the clutch has been good. But once it starts to slip all you can do is stop using it. Use only one gear for the whole lap. That's not really possible. Or shift by rev matching, which is dangerous if you don't do it right.

For an auto like icemang17 said keep the fluid cool. Put a gauge on it so you know what the fluid temp is. Gauges don't count towards the $500. For that matter get gauges for all your engine fluids. Oil, and water temp. Oil pressure and volt gauge. Too much information is just enough. Put the biggest cooler you can find. You can get some pretty good tranny coolers in the junkyard off of 3/4 ton pickup and vans. A PT Cruiser has a nice aluminum one. If you do get a junkyard cooler, take note of the color and smell of the fluid that's in it. You might have to check a couple before you find one that's not too stinky. Then make sure you flush it out good before installing it.

Re: Auto or Manual?

Just like everyone else has said, if you run an auto keep it cool!

Junkyard coolers are easy to find,  we snagged ours out on an old motorhome.

Personally I prefur a manuel trans but only having two pedals to deal with was nice at Nelson last year.

Team Sucker Punch: Winner Class B Doing Time at Joliet 2023 Autobahn ,Winner Org Choice award Were the Elite Meet to Cheat 2015
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Chevy Corvette 1984......and still racing!

Re: Auto or Manual?

With a computer controlled automatic you can change the shift curves and have it shift like a good driver in a 5-speed would.  Or if you are so inclined, go paddle shift.

Also, if you run a common transmission like the ford 4R70W you can probably find the right holes in the valve body to drill larger to get firmer shifts and less slippage.  J-Mod is what it is called for the Ford 4R70W named after Jerry, the Ford engineer who designed the valving on the trans.

El Capitan de los Bastardos De Lemons
1993 Linco Mark Ate
1957 Renault Dauphine
Driver with LemonSpeed's V6 Mustang

Re: Auto or Manual?

Well... having experience with both manual and automatic transmission in Volvo 240s I'd have to say the car is certainly going to be faster with a manual. However, it's hard to say which will be more reliable. The stock volvo manual transmissions don't hold up to a lot of hard abuse but if you're nice to them and just running stock power levels through them you should be ok. As was stated above the automatic should be ok as long as you don't overheat it too badly. I have personally fried an auto volvo transmission or two and blown up two volvo manual gearboxes. But, of course, I was putting more than stock power through the manual transmissions.

If it was my car I'd go with the manual - just because it's better suited to race track use in general.

Pendejo Engineering "Captain" - 1991 Alfa 164
1983 Shaguar XJ-S V-12 "The Two Ton Miata"
1995 Mercedes S600 V-12  - First car ever CLAIMED by JAY!
1980 Maserati Quattroporte - Judge's Choice

Re: Auto or Manual?

you use a clutch when racing?
more so, you use a clutch on a $500 car?

Yee-Haw 2010 "Most Heroic Fix" & "I Got Screwed" -2 trophies for 1 lap, but I took checkered on my lap.
Gator-O-Rama 2012 "Organizers Choice" -2 laps 1 trophy, but i still finished ahead of an E30
Yee-Haw 2013 No trophy -26 laps, I think I see a pattern here
Gator-O-Rama 2014 "Waiting for the Last Minute Call from the Governor Award" -who's counting? John

Re: Auto or Manual?

Driving a stick is always more fun IMHO.  And it almost always lasts longer.

Jer / Schumacher Taxi Service
2010 Spring CMP I.O.E. winner
2010 Sebring overall winner
1996 Miata, 1991 BMW E30, 1987 coROLLa (retired), 1984 Citation (retired), 1993 Miata (retired)

Re: Auto or Manual?

I would alway schoose a manual trans.  I drive one every day and everyone on my team does.  But, if your drivers are not comfortable driving a stick you should keep the auto and make it robust.  If you don't drive a stick on a regular basis having one in your race car would just slow you down and give you something else to think about.  I'd rather your drivers were concentrating on driving, not what gear they should be in.

Not all who wander are lost.

Re: Auto or Manual?

I like the automatic for a Lemons race.  The auto reduces the work load on the driver allowing the driver to focus on keeping the car pointed in the right general direction, and avoiding contact.  I think we can all agree that avoiding black flags due to wheels off and contact gets a better finishing position than turning quick laps.

One of the big risks with auto, in addition to heat issues, is the inability to push start the car.  We lost our starter at the Houston race and on Sunday morning we lost hours of track time sourcing a replacement.  Stupid 1970s parts...

Team Apex Vinyl: 1977 Toyota Truck
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Re: Auto or Manual?

While I prefer a manual, we have torn up some parts.

We we on our 3rd clutch and 2nd transmission by the end of our second race.

An automatic is less interesting but allows drivers to focus more on staying out of trouble.  So I think it's a good thing with new drivers.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: Auto or Manual?

On my third 700r4 auto... unreliable pieces of shit. My car will have a manual in it next time it sees the track.

Re: Auto or Manual?

Hmm....  maybe a certain supreme court justice can do a little research to determine exactly how reliable or not reliable each type of tranny is in Lemons racing

From my experience (two races) I have seen plenty of 5 speeds blow up or end up being 1 speeds many many times......in all types of cars....from high powered V8's to no power econo boxes.....  I have heard of automatics overheating and failing...but haven't seen one in person at the races...... 

For example our 928 is about 250hp (crank) and its racing weight is 3150lbs....the tranny is completely stock and now has over 40 hours of on track time with ZERO issues.....

The Jag guys are running the typical GM automatic with FAR more hp (360hp) in a far heavier car (3500lbs+) and don't have many problems with it that I know of......

The Camaro that put down 260+whp just prior to the race blew its 5 speed and finished with 1 gear...the V8olvo tends to grenade tranny's on a regular basis.... even the Fiat X19 has tranny problems often....

Yes the 928 would be faster with a manual...but I don't think it would last....which is why I haven't done it!

Richard Doty
1984 Porsche 928 "Estate"
Porsche- "there is A substitute" Racing
Dirt Poorsche Racing #2

Re: Auto or Manual?

I would say that there is no reliability advantage to going with a manual over an automatic in a Lemons race, unless you've got a vehicle type known for weak/overheating automatics (e.g., big BMW). I've seen plenty of automatics blow up, but about the same percentage of manuals fry clutches, eat throwout bearings, turn gears into shards of busted metal, etc. An automatic should be much easier on your differential. I'll leave debates over subjective stuff like "fun to drive" to others.

As for Volvo 240s with autos, we've had several race in Lemons and they seemed to hold together just fine. You could start with the slushbox and convert to a manual later on if you feel like it; junkyards are overflowing with manual-equipped 240s and it's totally easy to swap the trans and pedal assembly.

Re: Auto or Manual?

Aren't 928 clutches made of glass? I heard they go out every 10-15k miles. I can't believe that, but shit happens.....

SHO trannies are semi shit, baby it and it will be OK. Spin the inside wheel too much and it's bye-bye diff pins. The pins can be welded to prevent ejection into outer space.

Re: Auto or Manual?

sergio wrote:

Aren't 928 clutches made of glass? I heard they go out every 10-15k miles. I can't believe that, but shit happens.....

SHO trannies are semi shit, baby it and it will be OK. Spin the inside wheel too much and it's bye-bye diff pins. The pins can be welded to prevent ejection into outer space.

HEY...don't diss the fancy german glass clutches....

Whats really dumb is the early cars had dual disk clutches that are VERY strong and long lasting WHEN adjusted right...which they rarely were by the dealers..so they burned up about like you said....then Porsche "upgraded" to a heavier single disk that sorta works....   

I blew a clutch in my single disk 928 in 9.5 hours on track.....same weight as the Lemons racer, with HUGE tires (335/30-18) and only 300whp...  disc was gone & pressure plate was burned up!!!   Most of the hotrod 500+whp 928 racers use tilton triple disc clutches.....

Don't even get me started on the WEAK synchros in the early pre 85 5 speeds....

Richard Doty
1984 Porsche 928 "Estate"
Porsche- "there is A substitute" Racing
Dirt Poorsche Racing #2

Re: Auto or Manual?

This used to be a big issue in Street Stock....IMO if you lock out overdrive and converter clutches, then use lots of cooling, you can make a slushbox last. Put in a manual valve body kit and if you can gear it right you can often use two gears, aka one shift for many circuits....you don't lose much and the converter multiplies the torque and cushions the driveline...and you can use stock long gearing and/or welded diffs with less risk...

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....

Re: Auto or Manual?

Hmm welded diffs work BETTER with an auto.....me likey the sound of that...since an LSD is WAY too expensive!!!

Richard Doty
1984 Porsche 928 "Estate"
Porsche- "there is A substitute" Racing
Dirt Poorsche Racing #2

Re: Auto or Manual?

Not so much that they work better, but they transmit much lower shock loads to the flywheel/flexplate, since the grip levels are higher when you accelerate hard in lower gears....a good flush really helps too, especially with pro hot flush equipment because some coolers are thermostatically controlled so room temperature flushes don't get out all the crap...

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....

Re: Auto or Manual?

The Cavalier killed 3 automatics in 3 years and 9 races- we were happy to have the manual for the last 2 races, and the teething problems had JUST been worked out before the untimely demise of the red wagon...

Volvo PV544 (RIP) - now with Chevy 3.9 power!
2007/2012/2013 Driver's Championship (what was I thinking!?) 142 races and counting.
2/25/24