Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

cmice wrote:

Radial engines have a lot of gyroscopic effect - many WWI pilots were killed because, at full throttle on takeoff, the flight controls rotated 90degrees (ie. turn left to pull up, etc).

I wonder if the MR2 will wheelie when turning one way vs. another... ?  wink

Outstanding swap!

Some encouragement...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEHTVQw2ql4

Chris

The engines that had all that momentum were 'rotary' (not to be confused with Wankels) and the cylinders rotated around the crankshaft that was fixed to the airframe...  think of 400lbs of rotating mass...  yep those planes turned real fast in one direction and hardly at all in the other..


  -John

Gosh, my business card says 'Tech Tyrant'

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Evil Genius wrote:
cmice wrote:

Radial engines have a lot of gyroscopic effect - many WWI pilots were killed because, at full throttle on takeoff, the flight controls rotated 90degrees (ie. turn left to pull up, etc).

I wonder if the MR2 will wheelie when turning one way vs. another... ?  wink

Outstanding swap!

Some encouragement...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEHTVQw2ql4

Chris

The engines that had all that momentum were 'rotary' (not to be confused with Wankels) and the cylinders rotated around the crankshaft that was fixed to the airframe...  think of 400lbs of rotating mass...  yep those planes turned real fast in one direction and hardly at all in the other..


  -John

Some good reading on WWI rotary engines:

http://www.century-of-flight.net/new%20 … _frame.htm

Eric
Contributor at www.hooniverse.com
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228

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

therood wrote:

Some good reading on WWI rotary engines:

http://www.century-of-flight.net/new%20 … _frame.htm

wow, neat stuff there.

I did not realize the gnomes were fed air through the crankcase. between that and being a total loss oiling, there must have been some massive oil consumption.

thankfully i don't have all that rotational inertia, but there's still quite a bit. the crankshaft weighs about 60lbs. at least 40 of which is the counterweight.

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Had to do a brief preview post on TTAC. Get ready for grumpy, curmudgeonly dudes telling you all the reasons it won't work, and why it's just wrong, wrong, wrong. That means you're right, right, right!

230

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Judge Phil wrote:

Had to do a brief preview post on TTAC. Get ready for grumpy, curmudgeonly dudes telling you all the reasons it won't work, and why it's just wrong, wrong, wrong. That means you're right, right, right!

awesome!

So far I've only gotten one person to tell me I'm destroying a historical artifact. I should have taken a picture of the motor in the state that i found it in.

Judge Phil wrote:

Will it have license plates?

Is the pope Catholic? of course it will get plated for the road!

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Evil Genius wrote:
cmice wrote:

Radial engines have a lot of gyroscopic effect - many WWI pilots were killed because, at full throttle on takeoff, the flight controls rotated 90degrees (ie. turn left to pull up, etc).

I wonder if the MR2 will wheelie when turning one way vs. another... ?  wink

The engines that had all that momentum were 'rotary' (not to be confused with Wankels) and the cylinders rotated around the crankshaft that was fixed to the airframe...  think of 400lbs of rotating mass...  yep those planes turned real fast in one direction and hardly at all in the other..

Seems like you could use that gyroscopic effect to your advantage in a car.
Turn the motor so it's north-south and run it in the right direction - then when you go around a corner the gyroscopic force will reverse the lean and keep the motor upright - helping you corner flat and putting more equal weigh on the inside tires.

-Victor

232 (edited by Hoonatic Racing 2011-02-16 10:36 AM)

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

sublimate wrote:

Seems like you could use that gyroscopic effect to your advantage in a car.
Turn the motor so it's north-south and run it in the right direction - then when you go around a corner the gyroscopic force will reverse the lean and keep the motor upright - helping you corner flat and putting more equal weigh on the inside tires.

The physics doesn't quite work like that.
The engine is rigidly mounted to the chassis. There is no inertia built up.

If for argument sake, it could be done, that would do wonders in NASCAR, but we make right turns too. The right turns would be a bitch.

Yee-Haw 2010 "Most Heroic Fix" & "I Got Screwed" -2 trophies for 1 lap, but I took checkered on my lap.
Gator-O-Rama 2012 "Organizers Choice" -2 laps 1 trophy, but i still finished ahead of an E30
Yee-Haw 2013 No trophy -26 laps, I think I see a pattern here
John

233

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

orient it in reverse with a gear mesh reversing the direction to the correct cycling? the roadcourses in the midwest are mostly right-handers, so it could be worth it for the wicked turn-right ability. for the left turns, just use staggered tires big_smile

234 (edited by sublimate 2011-02-16 12:54 PM)

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Hoonatic Racing wrote:
sublimate wrote:

Seems like you could use that gyroscopic effect to your advantage in a car.
Turn the motor so it's north-south and run it in the right direction - then when you go around a corner the gyroscopic force will reverse the lean and keep the motor upright - helping you corner flat and putting more equal weigh on the inside tires.

The physics doesn't quite work like that.
The engine is rigidly mounted to the chassis. There is no inertia built up.

If for argument sake, it could be done, that would do wonders in NASCAR, but we make right turns too. The right turns would be a bitch.

I beg to differ, it works exactly like that.  And it'll work equally well whether you're taking a left or a right (without having to reverse the direction of the engine for different corners).

Yes, the engine is rigidly mounted to the chassis, that's how the gyroscopic torque on the engine is transmitted to the chassis to keep the car level.

-Victor

235

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

I just had two hours in the shop to spend on this tonight, but I made the best of it.

I made a jig for the rear crossmember suspension points so I can make the new crossmember.

http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/IMG_0043.jpg

http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/IMG_0046.jpg

once i get the crossmember done, i will be able to set the car back down on it's suspension and measure for the CV shaft length and make those.

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

sublimate wrote:

I beg to differ, it works exactly like that.  And it'll work equally well whether you're taking a left or a right (without having to reverse the direction of the engine for different corners).

Sublimate's right in that any rotating mass (ie, the 40-pound flywheel) is going to have a gyroscopic effect.  But I think it wouldn't be enough to effectively resist lean unless it's got a really large diameter and/or is spinning at high RPMs.  Also, if it's resisting left/right lean, it's also going to resist turning left and right.  Same plane.

Quad4 CRX - Wartburg 311 - Civic Wagovan - Parnelli Jones Galaxie - LS400 - Lancia MR2 - Boat - Sentra - 56 Ford Victoria
Known Associate of 3pedal Mafia, Speedycop, and the Russians.  Maybe even NSF.

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

That crossmember jig is nice!

El Capitan de Substandard Racing -  Houston, Tx
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2010 Gator-O-Rama: 1973 Gremlin - Gremlin Express, Lassiez le Crapheaps Roulette - Gremlin - Most Heroic Fix
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238

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Yeah, you might be able to steer without a steering wheel by getting on or off the gas.  You might have to steer on the straights though while accelerating/decelerating. 

Might want to leave a backup plan of being able to have power steering if its a lot of "torque steer" so you dont look like the baitin mascot from drivin it
www.flickr.com/photos/stephen777/359697015/

BTW awesome work!

-Killer B's (as in rally) '84 4000Q 4.2V8. Hoping to change Phil's "Audis never win"

239

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

jrbe wrote:

Yeah, you might be able to steer without a steering wheel by getting on or off the gas.  You might have to steer on the straights though while accelerating/decelerating. 

Might want to leave a backup plan of being able to have power steering if its a lot of "torque steer" so you dont look like the baitin mascot from drivin it
www.flickr.com/photos/stephen777/359697015/

BTW awesome work!

keep in mind, the motor, trans and rear end are mounted together. the torque isn't getting transmitted through the chassis like a traditional muscle car. I've got a daily driver MR2 with a 2gr-fe V6 that puts almost 300HP to the ground and it does not have any issues of the sort.

the other thing i think many people are forgetting is that while this is an enormous motor, it's only rated for 160HP due to it's low redline, stupidly now compression ratio and complete lack of piston "squish" region to propagate the flame front faster. heck, the idle timing is 28degrees before TDC.

combustion chamber fluid dynamics were not very well understood in the 1930's

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Marc wrote:

it's only rated for 160HP due to it's low redline, stupidly now compression ratio and complete lack of piston "squish" region to propagate the flame front faster. heck, the idle timing is 28degrees before TDC.

combustion chamber fluid dynamics were not very well understood in the 1930's

Make yourself some DIY Plasma Plugs and you should see some improvement in the burn rate:
http://www.panaceauniversity.org/howtom … aplugs.pdf

You'll need a pretty hot coil as well.

-Victor

241

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Yeah i was thinking you had the engine with the crank pointed up.  I forgot you have it longitudinal.

-Killer B's (as in rally) '84 4000Q 4.2V8. Hoping to change Phil's "Audis never win"

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Let me know if you need 6 turbos to make this a proper engine build - seriously.

http://www.honeywell.com/sites/ts/tt/ab … 213640.htm

Each GT12 makes about 100hp on a FSAE engine and are given to FSAE team for free and I can't see any reason this engine wouldn't need 3,4 ,5 or 6 of them.

243

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

BlackIronRacing_V wrote:

Let me know if you need 6 turbos to make this a proper engine build - seriously.

http://www.honeywell.com/sites/ts/tt/ab … 213640.htm

Each GT12 makes about 100hp on a FSAE engine and are given to FSAE team for free and I can't see any reason this engine wouldn't need 3,4 ,5 or 6 of them.

if 5 matching small turbos would make their way into my hands, they would definitely get installed. it would go a long way to making up for the 5.5:1 compression ratio.

244

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

It's been a long weekend. i had to remake the crossmember twice, but other than missing the toe-link bracket and some finish welding, the entire rear crossmember is done.

http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/IMG_0049.jpg

http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/IMG_0051.jpg

http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/IMG_0052.jpg


I did have it on it's wheels at some point, the bottom of the crossmember only has about 2.5" of clearance to the ground. taller rear tires are in order which should give us about 3.25" of clearance under there. i do plan on placing a small skid-plate at the very bottom just to be certain, but it should not ever touch unless the car is off in the weeds.


the plan for early this next week:
-toe link brackets
-remove and finish welding crossmember
-make cv axle shafts

at which point i should be able to move the car out of the garage to clean all the schnoz that has been accumulating underneath and get a true settled height clearance measurement.

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Wow, that's some nice tubing work there marc!  What bender do you use?

Quad4 CRX - Wartburg 311 - Civic Wagovan - Parnelli Jones Galaxie - LS400 - Lancia MR2 - Boat - Sentra - 56 Ford Victoria
Known Associate of 3pedal Mafia, Speedycop, and the Russians.  Maybe even NSF.

246

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

dculberson wrote:

Wow, that's some nice tubing work there marc!  What bender do you use?

Thanks, it's an old JD2 Model 3 bender that i reinforced. if it were available at the time I would have gotten the model 32.

Don't get caught up and buy the hydraulic version, the hand cranked version works great and is much cheaper.

I use this to bend my own cages also.

247

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

alright, sorry about the lack of updates for the last few days. i finally got back out to the shop tonight and finished up the rear suspension crossmember:

here it is with a fresh quick coat of whatever paint i had laying around:
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/IMG_0054.jpg

from the top:
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/IMG_0057b.jpg

i tried getting a pic from the back with it on it's wheels to show the clerance, but it was dark outside and the camera did not take a good picture:

http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/IMG_0059b.jpg

all that's left is the custom length CV shafts and that part of the project is finished

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

I'm surprised this hasn't been moved to Epic Builds...it's already an epic thread.

1978 AMC Pacer - The Blue Flag Special
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Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Will there be room for the heads?

250

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

when you're done with the mid engine setup, let me know how I can help you move it to this:

http://fastcache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/12/2006/08/medium_mini_haha.jpg