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Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

damn, that's pretty awesome marc. though that boot angle from the top down looks a little precariously offset

277

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Serj wrote:

damn, that's pretty awesome marc. though that boot angle from the top down looks a little precariously offset

we ran a crosscut CV joint at a worse angle in the last car, it certainly costs a bit of horsepower and makes the joint hot, but it works just fine. the tripod joint has less friction at heavy angles so it should heat less.

the boot makes it look worse than it is, look at the shaft.

278

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

well, spark & fuel is settled.

controller will be a megasquirt 3 unit because i need the full sequential that isn't supported in the earlier versions. (if someone has a good deal on one of these, i haven't bought one yet)

ignition will be done with ford waste spark coilpacks. and ford coil driver modules. i plan on driving both plugs in each cylinder with opposite sides of the same coil.

throttle bodies will be Yamaha R6 units because they are conveniently sized. one at each cylinder, plus they already hold the fuel injector and the fuel rail.

crank timing will be done with a wheel and optical sensor on one of the magneto outputs (runs 1:1 with crank). 720 sync will be a bit tricky since there's no easily accessible 1/2 crank speed shaft, but i think megasquirt can sync on a single tooth for that. if so i'll put a sensor on one of the rockers to detect when it's actuated.

i think I'll link all the different vacuums together using the stock intake manifold as a plenum reservoir. it appears to be about 2-3L in size which should be enough to smooth things out and get a good brake booster vacuum.

the control strategy will be speed density if the vac signal is steady enough, otherwise i'll just go Alpha-N.

this means at an absolute minimum I need the following electronics mounted on the motor:
-5 injectors
-5 waste spark coils
-crank position sensor
-cam position sensor
-throttle position sensor

I may decide to add the following also:
-manifold pressure sensor
-oil temp sensor
-cylinder head temp(s) (if megasquirt can do anything with it)
-water injection solenoid
-O2 sensor(s)

but i can't do that stuff before i do the final assembly of the heads onto the motor, which i can't do until i have all the brackets finalized.

this weekend's plans:
-remove engine again
-finish welding all trans/engine brackets, add gussets where necessary.
-clutch slave mount
-figure out shift linkage and order parts (bushings, joints & whatnots)
-paint frame/brackets
-reinstall engine & start final assembly

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Marc wrote:

-cylinder head temp(s) (if megasquirt can do anything with it)

Wouldn't you want that for dashboard monitoring anyway?  Especially with the lower cylinders shrouded from the airflow?

280

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Scud.Ig wrote:
Marc wrote:

-cylinder head temp(s) (if megasquirt can do anything with it)

Wouldn't you want that for dashboard monitoring anyway?  Especially with the lower cylinders shrouded from the airflow?

yes and no. gauges are great. but it's hard enough to get a driver to watch the fuel gauge, let alone the misc temp gauges.

we'll see how it goes, that's still in the air.

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

This is absolutely awesome!
Looks like I am a little late and have not read the entire thread yet.
But
I did see that CIS was brought up, and it seems a natural to me.
5cyl CIS should be easy to get.

282

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

If there is a system that makes me cringe its CIS.  The audi 5kt fuel distributor/cis stuff can only support ~230 hp worth of fuel and thats the best audi 5 cyl CIS i know of fuel flow wise.  I dont know of any bigger hp wise 5 cyl CIS out there.  So many things to go wrong with the DPR or frequency valve, pressure regulators, tiny orifices.  This is would be my nightmare (CIS on my race car)

Megasquirt can use pretty much any temp sensor you need but iirc cylinder head temp varies too much which makes the fuel compensation vary too much and unpredictably and most guys end up using the oil temp as warm up enrichment reference (instead of coolant temp.)

As far as the throttle bodies go, if the ITB's have a little restrictor on the vacuum port take off this can be enough to smooth out the cylinder to cylinder pulse that normally ends up making a bouncy map sensor signal.  If you are going TPS based no need to worry about a bouncy map signal, a check valve per ITB vacuum take off then t'd together will leave plenty of vacuum for the booster.  no extra stuff to have to make or adapt.

  Im running 5 ITBs (gsxr) on my turbo street car.  It was fun getting it smooth enough to run it map based.  For what you are doing TPS based is the way to go (you know that though.)

Im very interested to see how you end up doing the throttle linkages.

-Killer B's (as in rally) '84 4000Q 4.2V8. Audis never win?

283

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

can someone help me find ignition parts?

I need either 5 waste spark coils (ganged or individual) or 10 coil near plug setups. and they have to have built in igniters (more than 2 pins just about always means built in igniter).

they also need to be common enough that they can be replaced in the middle of nowhere on short notice.

Thanks!

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Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

jrbe wrote:

If there is a system that makes me cringe its CIS.  The audi 5kt fuel distributor/cis stuff can only support ~230 hp worth of fuel and thats the best audi 5 cyl CIS i know of fuel flow wise.  I dont know of any bigger hp wise 5 cyl CIS out there.  So many things to go wrong with the DPR or frequency valve, pressure regulators, tiny orifices.  This is would be my nightmare (CIS on my race car)

Megasquirt can use pretty much any temp sensor you need but iirc cylinder head temp varies too much which makes the fuel compensation vary too much and unpredictably and most guys end up using the oil temp as warm up enrichment reference (instead of coolant temp.)

As far as the throttle bodies go, if the ITB's have a little restrictor on the vacuum port take off this can be enough to smooth out the cylinder to cylinder pulse that normally ends up making a bouncy map sensor signal.  If you are going TPS based no need to worry about a bouncy map signal, a check valve per ITB vacuum take off then t'd together will leave plenty of vacuum for the booster.  no extra stuff to have to make or adapt.

  Im running 5 ITBs (gsxr) on my turbo street car.  It was fun getting it smooth enough to run it map based.  For what you are doing TPS based is the way to go (you know that though.)

Im very interested to see how you end up doing the throttle linkages.

I've got a few ideas on the throttle linkage. but i'm not ready to talk about it yet smile the shift linkage will be similarly complicated.

i am planning on using oil temp for the warm-up cycle stuff but the CHT would be to help control water injection rates. i think it can do it.

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Late-model GM trucks with LS-motors have coil-near-plug setups, and should be abundant and cheap. What about Ford V10 coil packs?

Official photographer/Team Police Brutality|Speedycop & the Gang
Lackey-mechanic-whatever/NSF Racing
Sycophant/Judge Phil, Jay Lamm, Kim Harmon
Galaxie Driver/not Parnelli Jones

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

jrbe wrote:

If there is a system that makes me cringe its CIS.  The audi 5kt fuel distributor/cis stuff can only support ~230 hp worth of fuel and thats the best audi 5 cyl CIS i know of fuel flow wise.  I dont know of any bigger hp wise 5 cyl CIS out there.

With CIS I believe you can use a 6 or 8 port fuel distributor and just close off the ports you don't need.  A common mod to get more fuel for my R5 Turbo is to drop in the CIS distributor from a V8 Mercedes with 4 ports blocked off.

-Victor

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Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

ronman wrote:

Late-model GM trucks with LS-motors have coil-near-plug setups, and should be abundant and cheap. What about Ford V10 coil packs?

if there was a ford V10 EDIS system it would be perfect. but they use coil on plugs (as far as i know)

the LS coils are the front runner right now, but i was hoping to find a ganged waste spark coil setup to bring the cost down.

and what's all this talk about CIS? who said anything about mechanical injection?

288

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

so, basically no DIS coils? you could find boatloads of GM DIS coilpacks for 3800 series II motors at any junkyard. Basic NEW ones from summit are $20 a pop but I bet they're way cheap from a pull&pay

289

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Serj wrote:

so, basically no DIS coils? you could find boatloads of GM DIS coilpacks for 3800 series II motors at any junkyard. Basic NEW ones from summit are $20 a pop but I bet they're way cheap from a pull&pay

yeah, megasquirt without a distributor can only power 4 high draw coils or 8 coils with igniter. Bosch makes modules that can be placed in between, but they are expensive.

the LS series are about 25$ per coil once you get all the bits needed.

290

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Hit up a local VW dealer. They have a mass cop recall going on right now. You might be able to score boxes of free coils. They are smart coils w built in igniters. They also sell a coil repair harness that has the connectors and the stuff wired already. Let me know, I can get u the "repair harness "part # or more info if you want

-Killer B's (as in rally) '84 4000Q 4.2V8. Audis never win?

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Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

alright guys, all the bracketing and gusseting is finished in the engine bay. the axles are also bolted in place. i also got the clutch cable in there.

the paint is more about slowing down rust than looking pretty.

http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/IMG_0088.jpg


here you can see the toe links that weren't covered in other pictures.
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/IMG_0086.jpg


the clutch fork has been extensively modified to fit in the new packaging and i could not fit a hydraulic cylinder in there so i decided to go to a cable to get away from that tight area and i'll mount a hydraulic cylinder on the end of the cable with a bellcrank to optimize the motion and reverse the push of the hydraulics into a pull on the cable.


alright, with that all out of the way, i'm off to drop the engine in for the last time and start final engine assembly.

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

I was thinking there was a non-COP V10, but it came out after the switch.

Official photographer/Team Police Brutality|Speedycop & the Gang
Lackey-mechanic-whatever/NSF Racing
Sycophant/Judge Phil, Jay Lamm, Kim Harmon
Galaxie Driver/not Parnelli Jones

293

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

ronman wrote:

I was thinking there was a non-COP V10, but it came out after the switch.

yeah, if the ford V10 used the older EDIS system, i'd be in the money! that system is stupidly easy to hook up and it has a nice failsafe mode.

294 (edited by Marc 2011-02-27 04:01 PM)

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

i'm seriously tired of turning 5/16" nuts with an open end wrench. WHY OH WHY did they have to design this thing so 95% of the bolts cannot be accessed with a socket? (did they even have sockets back then?)

I got through a box of 100nuts and called it a day. I got the following done:
-oil sump/pressure reservoir installed
-all the miscellaneous covers are installed (machine gun timing & other stuff)
-3 of the 5 heads are installed

http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/IMG_0090.jpg

the other two heads still need reassembly, i'll be doing that tomorrow and/or Tuesday and getting them installed then.

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Marc wrote:

i'm seriously tired of turning 5/16" nuts with an open end wrench. WHY OH WHY did they have to design this thing so 95% of the bolts cannot be accessed with a socket? (did they even have sockets back then?)

Ratcheting box ends were the best investment I ever made and my favorite tools.

El Capitan de Substandard Racing -  Houston, Tx
2009 Yee Haw! It's Lemons Texas: 1973 Gremlin - Gremwow!
2010 Gator-O-Rama: 1973 Gremlin - Gremlin Express, Lassiez le Crapheaps Roulette - Gremlin - Most Heroic Fix
http://substandardracing.blogspot.com/

296

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

komododave wrote:
Marc wrote:

i'm seriously tired of turning 5/16" nuts with an open end wrench. WHY OH WHY did they have to design this thing so 95% of the bolts cannot be accessed with a socket? (did they even have sockets back then?)

Ratcheting box ends were the best investment I ever made and my favorite tools.

I've got those also. these nuts are so close to other stuff i can't get a regular box end wrench on them. never mind a wider ratcheting style one.

297

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

here are a few pictures to elaborate what i'm talking about:

http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/IMG_0091.jpg
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/IMG_0092.jpg
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/IMG_0093.jpg

on this one i had to remove the studs because the transmission prevented the installation using studs.
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/IMG_0094.jpg

there's a special circle in hell reserved for the guy that used the diameter of the nut to set the clearance to the nearest obstacle.

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Marc wrote:

there's a special circle in hell reserved for the guy that used the diameter of the nut to set the clearance to the nearest obstacle.

Yeah, it's next to the one that is reserved for people that put airplane engines in cars, which is next to the one for people that think that's cool but would never do it themselves.

I'll probably end up in the latter, but wish I could be there with you wink

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

That is just so cool!

This should give you a laugh. I want to pull my wipers and bottle to save weight, but I'm worried about the oil spray from your exhaust, so I'm going to keep them in for day one at least!

"Don't mess with Lexas!" LS400. We survived another one! See website link for build details.
Maker of the "unofficial Lemons fish!" - If you ask nice, I'll likely give you one at the track.

300

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Spinnetti wrote:

That is just so cool!

This should give you a laugh. I want to pull my wipers and bottle to save weight, but I'm worried about the oil spray from your exhaust, so I'm going to keep them in for day one at least!

LEAVE IT ON! i'll be the only person on the track with a clean windshield.