Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Might be a little off the wall but how about a tire on the output of your motor running on a small steel drum on the input of the trans?  Like you see on rides at the fair...  Clutch might be a challenge though.  Electric clutch in the wheelhub might get you there.

'Nother thought along the lines of your t-cases: how about running a small trans with reverse gears only?  I have a Toyota Land Cruiser 3sp with a cast iron case that is maybe 10" long not counting shaft stick out.  They're cheap (I have one you can have...) and stand up to V8's without too much issue.  Drive it "backwards" like you're planning with t-cases to get your speed step up.  Shock loading might kill this idea though.

Don't think I have the answer but maybe you might get a kick in the right direction.

Nick
Focke Ewe racing -> Muttonheads! Racing -> Torque Junkies
86ish VW GTI...now with TDI Powah!

1,102

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

The tire "Fair ride" answer would give you the directional reversal, and different tire sizes could help your ratio, The Idea is simple enough, and would probably help your shock load problems. AS for a clutch.... Newer all wheel drive use an electric powered clutch pack on the rear diff. This might be able to be used on the front of the trans.

1,103

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Mkotzias wrote:

The tire "Fair ride" answer would give you the directional reversal, and different tire sizes could help your ratio, The Idea is simple enough, and would probably help your shock load problems. AS for a clutch.... Newer all wheel drive use an electric powered clutch pack on the rear diff. This might be able to be used on the front of the trans.

the fair ride answer has more side-load than the chain did, that's just not an acceptable answer.

as for the haldex differential, i have one here in the shop i bought just for that purpose. I had forgotten about it in the corner of the garage. it provides a 90* turn and about a 3.5:1 ratio.

you know, when i started this project i really figured "getting a WWII motor back to running order" was going to be the tough part.

1,104

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

With a wider surface wouldn't the side load not be an issue? Let the tire find its center.

1,105

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Mkotzias wrote:

With a wider surface wouldn't the side load not be an issue? Let the tire find its center.

wider means less psi at the contact patch, but the pressure on the shafts will be the same.

1,106

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Maybe I just need one of these at each wheel: http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?i … =hydraulic with about a 2.7:1 reducer.

the wheel motors aren't ridiculously priced. but the hydrostatic pump that can handle that kind of HP load is serious coin.

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

If side loading is the issue with the fair ride idea then why not a couple "straps", one on each side of the tire and contact drum, to hold the side load.  Use a couple flexible shaft couplers to connect the rubber OD gearbox to the engine and trans.  Now there's no side load on the engine and trans...still a wacky idea.  I might have the right piece of steel tube in my scrap pile to FWIW...

The straps could be expanded to a couple plates that will also mount the whole rig to the car and of course mount some flanged bearings and so on.

Nick
Focke Ewe racing -> Muttonheads! Racing -> Torque Junkies
86ish VW GTI...now with TDI Powah!

1,108

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Marc wrote:
Mkotzias wrote:

With a wider surface wouldn't the side load not be an issue? Let the tire find its center.

wider means less psi at the contact patch, but the pressure on the shafts will be the same.

So If I understand right.... Your concern is that the trans and engine centerlines are not staying the same distance away from each other,
How about some sealed bearings and a aligning bracket between the centerlines? I believe a similar idea to zebrabeefj40.

1,109

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

yes, i understand that the carnie ride drive system could be made to work. but ... no.

i have to be able to sleep at night with the decision i made and that's not one i'm willing to make smile

1,110

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Mkotzias wrote:

The tire "Fair ride" answer would give you the directional reversal, and different tire sizes could help your ratio, The Idea is simple enough, and would probably help your shock load problems. AS for a clutch.... Newer all wheel drive use an electric powered clutch pack on the rear diff. This might be able to be used on the front of the trans.

THANK YOU!

you reminded me that i had previously come up with a decent solution to this.

if i use that haldex diff and a 3000GT transfer case:

http://www.stealth316.com/images/mkxfercase1.jpg

the t-case is a .815:1 ratio and the haldex is 3.749

gives me an overall ratio of close enough to 3 to not matter. and a clutch that is driven by a solenoid. i just need a simple controller to enable clutch-by-wire.

i just need a 3000gt transfer case now. something like this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/3000GT-Stealth- … 912wt_1397

a little hacking & welding and i'll be in business!

1,111

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

I opened up the haldex to see what’s inside and more importantly, to get the exact gear ratio from it.

The ratio is 41:16 (2.5625) so I’ll use the gt3000 differential as an overdrive instead of under like I thought earlier.

The overall ratio is 3.144 which makes 1950rpm at the engine 6130rpm at the transmission input. Well in the range of where we want to be.


my thought is to hang the haldex so that one of it's outputs is now driven by the radial. this will spin it's internals like it's traveling 140 to 160mph max. a little outside of it's normal range, but i'm sure it's within everything's design parameters.

then, the output of the haldex will go into the gt3000 transfer case's input and the output will drive the transmission's input.

in this configuration the whole assembly is 2.5-4" too long but that can likely be made up with a driveshaft that has a bit of an angle to it.

the other possibility is to put the haldex unit at the bottom as an extension to the transmission's input shaft. this may be easier and the lengths are all kept in check better, but it does mean that the speeds it will be seeing will be closer to 170-195mph range for the haldex box. i'm sure the clutches won't last long at that rate, but i suspect it's doable.

we'll see when the gt3000 box gets here and i can get proper measurements from it.

meanwhile, here are some pictures for everyone's entertainment smile

http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0122.jpg

http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0123.jpg

this is the wet clutch pack:
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0124.jpg

teeth count so you can see which way the gear ratio goes.
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/gt3000t-case.JPG

1,112

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Marc wrote:

this will spin it's internals like it's traveling 140 to 160mph max.

You have options to cool this thing with more than air? Maybe adapt a diff cooler to add some capacity and rid some heat at the same time?

PS- I know a carny wheel setup is not fitting with the cars swagger but I really do dig the whimsy it would add. Not advocating for it, just a comment from the sidelines.

Daniel Sycks
Autoworx Mororsports. A division of CrapcanRacing.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1420899861513136/
https://www.autoworxracing.com/

1,113 (edited by Marc 2012-02-20 07:39 AM)

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

dsycks wrote:
Marc wrote:

this will spin it's internals like it's traveling 140 to 160mph max.

You have options to cool this thing with more than air? Maybe adapt a diff cooler to add some capacity and rid some heat at the same time?

PS- I know a carny wheel setup is not fitting with the cars swagger but I really do dig the whimsy it would add. Not advocating for it, just a comment from the sidelines.

cooling is more complicated than just putting Klotz oil in there. that stuff will put up to some seriously high temperatures and keep everything happy.

it's also seeing quite a bit less torque than it's rated for so it should help with the temperature issues.

1,114 (edited by Marc 2012-02-23 06:49 PM)

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

parts came in today:

http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0125.jpg
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0126.jpg

it's smaller than i expected, but that's good!

for what it's worth, the 3000GT makes 201 lb*ft and has a 1st gear of 3.071 so it sees 617lb*ft in the stock application. we're a bit close to that, but we should be alright.

and if anyone has a 3000GT transmissiona laying around, i could use the end of the shaft that goes in that box for it's spline.

Thanks!

1,115

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Frankly, I'm amazed at the number of parts you have or have bought for this thing. Simply staggering.

Notwithstanding:
Awesome.
You.

1,116

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Spank wrote:

Frankly, I'm amazed at the number of parts you have or have bought for this thing. Simply staggering.

Notwithstanding:
Awesome.
You.

they don't all end up in the vehicle, but they'll end up in future projects.

the problem is sometimes you can't get proper dimensions without having the thing in your hands

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Marc wrote:

they don't all end up in the vehicle, but they'll end up in future projects.

the problem is sometimes you can't get proper dimensions without having the thing in your hands

I read this as "they'll end up furniture projects".  Which would also be cool...  Haldex as a foot stool...

A&D: 2011 Autobahn, 2012 Gingerman, 2012 Road America, 2012 Autobahn II, 2013 Gator-O-Rama (True 24!)
Sir Jackie Stewart's Coin Purse Racing
2013 Chubba Cheddar Enduro - Organizer's Choice, 2014 Doing Time in Joliet
http://www.facebook.com/#!/SirJackieSte … urseRacing

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

I'll definitely want to write up the full story of the Radial MR2 for Car and Driver after the race, so please shoot many photographs of the current round of the project.

1,119

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Judge Phil wrote:

I'll definitely want to write up the full story of the Radial MR2 for Car and Driver after the race, so please shoot many photographs of the current round of the project.

no problem. i conveniently seperated the picture directories:

phase 1: http://www.frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/

phase 2: http://www.frankensteinmotorworks.com/A … R2/phase2/

as always you're welcome to use any of the pictures in an article you write in exchange for sending me a link to the article.

Phase 3 will be replacing the radial with a turboshaft smile

Marc

1,120

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Do we have an mechanical engineer in the house? i need some math smile

I have to add a flange to the 3000GT shaft and i have to cut off the splined end to shorten it. from what i can see, just machining a keyway in the shaft won't be enough. i can't find the math on using a taper-lock bushing instead.

The shaft is 28mm in OD and the load is 600lb*ft and may as well be a reciprocating load.

unfortunately i can't just weld the assembly together because it would burn up the seal i have to install. even if i'm willing to make it  impossible to dissemble.

1,121

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Do you still have Gary's email that I gave you prior?

If not it is most likely in one of the recent emails we have shared or I can just get it for you...

Daniel Sycks
Autoworx Mororsports. A division of CrapcanRacing.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1420899861513136/
https://www.autoworxracing.com/

1,122

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

sorry about the lack of updates guys. i was in brazil last week (see here for pics: http://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/viewt … pid=139079 )

but anyways, i had time this evening to check out some of my decisions i made just before leaving. the news is good:

so i took off the tailshaft housing on the GT3000 transfer case and i put the thing in place. there's enough room in the body for everything:

http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0368.jpg

then, i thought a bit about the torque going through that shaft and figured i did not want a keyed coupler. so i doug through the pile of transmission parts i keep around for such occasions and i ran across an Toyota MR2 E153 output shaft (these get replaced when you change the final drive on them) and an overdrive gear that matches the spline. the spline is a very snug fit, probably .0002" interference fit or so and the neat thing is it has a perfect seal diameter right there also. it's actually a bearing diameter, but it'll work just fine.

http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0369.jpg

http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0371.jpg

so the plan this week is to merge the GT3000 shaft with the E153 output shaft, modify the tailshaft housing to hold a seal and everything. then i'll make a flange to weld onto that gear to hold a rubber guibo. a mating guibo mount will go on prop hub and that part of the equation will be done. the gt3000 box will be held with a bracket that goes to the old motor mount locations.



Then, the next part of the equation got a bit simpler.
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0370.jpg

that's right, that's a goldwing 1800 final drive.

I build a short driveshaft between the GT3000 box and the goldwing final drive and mate the input of the final drive with the remains of the angry hamster box back plate. no more reduction there, just a pair of bearings to hold the old clutch in place. that way all the hydraulics still work (well, i still need to adjust the throw distance for full disengagement, but that's trivial.)

the only part i don't have and i need is a goldwing driveshaft to snag the proper spline that the box needs... off to e-bay smile

WOO!

1,123 (edited by Scotty 2012-03-11 08:59 PM)

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Marc! This is the greatest build thread EVER! In any motorsport forum. You are a true imagineer! A great fab guy, and have the 21st century skills to read the rule book and reach for total epicsauce.  I today just spent 4 hours reading this whole thread. From start to finish and never knew this build was even going on. 

All of this and a fresh family and a woman allowing you to put up with this shit! You are a god.

How dare me to even chime in with some observations... But what kind of intra-web douche bag, Monday morning crew chief would I be if I didn't. LMAO!

Reading through all the posts two things came to mind early on that were also suggested by Phil and Speedy but not a part of the same system. My imagineering background is in Baja and Dakar off-road racing. One thing everyone knows out there is the ONLY to keep a drive train alive is transferring all your power through a torque converter. It eliminates the shock from the drive train into the engine and visa versa. We all know automatics suck for road racing. As of late the buggy guys who have always ran a clutch with a manual have now added a stage to their oil pump solely to provide pressure to a torque convertor. The TC is the clutch.

Putting a pump driven TC directly on the transmission and have it driven with speedycop’s cog belt suggestion would give the packaging you desire and completely isolate all harmonics from the engine/drive train coupling. The really big advantage would be unlimited over/under drive choices through a massive choice of cog gears.

I can't wait to see you get this sorted no matter how you solve the little issues. Because they are all little at this point. You already overcame this biggest issue... The commitment to succeed at this.  And I can't wait to see you put 5 mufflers on this beast in the form of 5 turbos to calm your neighbors down.

God Speed Big Dawg!


Here is an example of a pump driven TC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiNO9xXNE1U

_______________
#3 IROC MAIDEN

1,124 (edited by Marc 2012-03-12 04:32 AM)

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Scotty,

Thanks for the compliments, there are a few reasons why i am not going that way. i think i've listed them in the past but i'll list them again:

1)I have an irrational hatred of all things automatic. everything from the wife's car, to the tow rig is a manual transmission. if i ever lose a leg, i'll put in hand operated clutches in my vehicles smile this is for a few reasons, it's more fun to drive, having a clutch allows you do direct the braking bias a bit using engine braking and more importantly, before i did this i used to do offroading and automatic transmissions are always causing all sorts of issues there. I've had them catch vehicles on fire before becuase the oil gets too hot. I've had torque converters prevent me from getting up hills because they start sucking air. yes, modifications can overcome that, but you're still just applying a band-aid to the problem. the only thing i'd consider is if i had a manual transmission that had an extra gear between 1st and 2nd (closer to 1st) that transmitted the power through a torque converter. but only in that gear.

it's hard to be stupid like this with an auto: http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/old%20crap/IMG_2263.JPG

2)from the technical side, using a torque converter is not nearly as easy as it is said. you have to provide coolant flow in and out of it concentrically through a shaft, at a minimum you have to have a way to drill two holes into a shaft offset from each other that don't touch each other or the outside and then you have to feed them through a rotary coupler of some sort that has to put up to high pressure and high RPM. then the whole assembly has to be held very concentric to the input shaft of the transmission to prevent the seals from being excessively side-loaded.

3)a belt that puts up to this stuff does not exist outside of the funny car supercharger world. have you ever priced one of those? the cog pulleys i'd need to achieve the 3:1 ratio also don't exist, more custom stuff to make. and then, we still have the issue that the rotation needs to be reversed.

I'm not saying these things aren't possible. but I think you guys overestimate the tools I have access to. I've got a CNC shop here that i can send work to, but other than the one side of the angry hamster box and the new output shaft for that box, everything else was done on manual mills and manual lathes of a few different sizes.

and yes, my Wife is awesome. I proposed to her on a wide-open baja trip (with a manual transmission and she also drove):
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/WOB/MarcCait/images/IMG_2527.JPG

1,125

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Well then my second suggestion was a 4 gear transfercase the monster trucks use. You can get them right off the shelf. It does look like you have a plan that will get the car rolling. Wide open Baja is a cool deal.  In Robby's trophy truck the engine is behind the driver facing backwards. The trans is directly hooked to that. Then a driveshaft goes to the front of the car into a castel v-drive and back into a normal rear diff.

Happy Wrenching!

_______________
#3 IROC MAIDEN