1,076

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

added a new drive pulley for the alternator.  and a new tone ring. the tone ring is from a Triton V10 (40-1 teeth), dorman had a part number for it and it saved me having to get something waterjet.

http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0011.jpg

then i also made a bracket for the new crank position sensor:

http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0014.jpg

off to go make a cam position sensor now. you guys will be entertained when you see it smile

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Is this coming to Gingerman or Autobahn this year?  I was lucky enough to get video of you at Gingerman last year on your maiden voyage, love to see this thing running a whole race!

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

1,078 (edited by Marc 2012-02-05 06:51 PM)

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

TeamLemon-aid wrote:

Is this coming to Gingerman or Autobahn this year?  I was lucky enough to get video of you at Gingerman last year on your maiden voyage, love to see this thing running a whole race!

yes, not sure which one. but it's my intention to make one of those.

More progress!!!

i used a spare valve cover i had, it had a crack in it but i repaired it and then put a threaded hole right over where the roller rocker is and added a sensor to give me the 720degree sync that full sequential fuel injection needs.

http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0103.jpg

http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0106.jpg

so at this point, i need to do a little electrical work and a little software tune work and the engine should fire up. i expect it to be running this week.

this replaces the somewhat clever but noisy as hell chain drive alternator solution.

1,079

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

I'm watching with great enthusiasm. big_smile

Lorin Mueller
Scuderia Asino formerly Team Haulin' Ass - 83 Plymouth Scamp
Team Soccer Moms - 93 Dodge Caravan

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Anxiously awaiting video with high-fidelity sound! Please be sure and use a stereo mic.

1,081

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

EriktheAwful wrote:

Anxiously awaiting video with high-fidelity sound! Please be sure and use a stereo mic.

i was figuring I'd do it outside when it's dark and go for a proper light show. stay tuned smile

1,082 (edited by Spank 2012-02-06 10:17 AM)

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Marc wrote:
EriktheAwful wrote:

Anxiously awaiting video with high-fidelity sound! Please be sure and use a stereo mic.

i was figuring I'd do it outside when it's dark and go for a proper light show. stay tuned smile

This one is safe. Captures my sentiments perfectly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYU3995mieo

1,083

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

does anyone near fort wayne, IN have a decent video camera? all the videos so far are taken with a digital still picture camera.

I could use the go-pro, but it's hit or miss since there's no viewfinder. and I'm sure the neighbors would appreciate it if i don't have to make 3 or 4 takes to get it right smile

1,084

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Contact your local community cable folks, if you have such a thing there. I am sure someone there has a camera and pro mics and would be happy to help.

Our local group conducts classes and loans out some very expensive equipment to ordinary people who have video projects. The nice thing about these better cameras, for your situation especially, is they do much better in low light than any consumer camera.

1,085 (edited by Marc 2012-02-06 07:50 PM)

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

well, i have good news and not as good news (but still not bad news)

the good news is it fired up tonight smile so that means my new cam/rocker position sensor idea works smile hooray!.

it's a bit too late to really do any adjustments to get the base timing fully dialed in. it's 9:30pm and i live in suburbia. a 540cubic inch WWII airplane engine with open headers is not a good way to say "i love you" to your neighbors.

the semi bad news may be fixable. but it's got this odd glitch. it seems to fire up when i let go of the start switch instead of as i hold it. almost like the starter is causing the ignition coils to go into a safety brown-out mode. they are high tech LS1 coils, i would not be surprised if they have a brown out voltage. but the good news is it's all fixable. megasquirt is happy with the sync signal and claims to be firing the injectors and coils.

final crank speed is about 180RPM once the longer battery cables are figured in. much less than the initial prediction, but way more than enough to get this thing ready to rock.

initial impression with the flywheel on the crank is that it's big enough to idle the motor and it does seem to be smoother than the previous setup.

I'll have some kind of video tomorrow. smile

1,086

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Congrats! So is that a hall sensor in there that sees the roller for the sync?

If you are using the factory ignition switch, did you check that there is +12v for the coils & injectors when the key is in the start position?  Some of the +12v key supplied circuits will drop out in the start position of the switch, the coils might be wired to those.  I've chased this start on release issue before and thats what was going on, just something quick n easy to check.

-Killer B's (as in rally) '84 4000Q 4.2V8. Audis never win?

1,087

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

jrbe wrote:

Congrats! So is that a hall sensor in there that sees the roller for the sync?

If you are using the factory ignition switch, did you check that there is +12v for the coils & injectors when the key is in the start position?  Some of the +12v key supplied circuits will drop out in the start position of the switch, the coils might be wired to those.  I've chased this start on release issue before and thats what was going on, just something quick n easy to check.

it's all completely custom wiring, i know that isn't the problem.

what the problem likely is is due to the MR2's configuration. the battery is at the front, the kill switch is at the back so the power for the ecu goes through the same 8ft of 0 gauge wiring as that massive starter. by moving the kill switch to where it needs to move anyways to meet the new rules, it'll only share 3 feet of the same wiring and i can use larger wiring. the voltage drop should be significantly less at that point.

the starter is getting enough voltage to be happy. 180RPM is great!

and yes, it's a hall effect sensor catching the roller on the rocker arm. it was a crazy idea i had that seems to work well at this point smile

1,088

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

sorry guys. i guess i had forgotten how this thing runs since last time.

i got the engine running and after about 5 minutes when the base timing was set as close as it needed to be the lower cylinders were still exhausting oil. this thing really needs to run as a fair clip for 10 minutes or so to get all the oil out of the lower heads and i did not want to piss off the neighbors that much.

so with that said, I need to get the new drive assembly done so i can load it on a trailer and take it to the machine shop. it's in an industrial district and i can do all the tuning i need to over there without worrying about a noise ordnance violation.

first step of the new drive assembly is to open the angry hamster box and see if it's salvagable with a new shaft.

1,089

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

I know what the problem is!

You need cooler neighbors! wink

Daniel Sycks

1,090

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

dsycks wrote:

I know what the problem is!

You need less neighbors! wink

fixed it smile

nobody complained but i did not want to push my luck.

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

I'd go with the cooler neighbors. My neighbor to the south rides and tunes cycles. Guy across the street has dirt bikes. Guy diagonal has two Camaros, a Firebird, and a 'vette. My neighbor to the north asks me to help with his RV and car from time to time. Some guy in the neighbor hood has a LOUD Mustang and does test runs on the main road. Lots of loud boat motors. Lots of retired military. In the late fall you can hear some deer hunting in the more wooded areas. It's great!

1,092

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

EriktheAwful wrote:

I'd go with the cooler neighbors. My neighbor to the south rides and tunes cycles. Guy across the street has dirt bikes. Guy diagonal has two Camaros, a Firebird, and a 'vette. My neighbor to the north asks me to help with his RV and car from time to time. Some guy in the neighbor hood has a LOUD Mustang and does test runs on the main road. Lots of loud boat motors. Lots of retired military. In the late fall you can hear some deer hunting in the more wooded areas. It's great!

I do have pretty decent neighbours, but it's a reciprocal thing. you can't be rude and expect them to stay nice neighbours. in many of the other videos with the engine running they are on the other side of the camera. they like this project and i want to keep it this way.

imagine what that loud mustang would sound like with open headers and combustion in the headers for 10 minutes until the oil leaves the cylinders and allows them to run properly. it's not a deep rumble that drives away. it's a bang bang bang *POP* bang *POP* bang *POP* bang bang bang bang *POP* bang *POP* bang *POP* bang bang. it's all pretty visceral and i love hearing it.

anyways, it is what it is. I'll get the angry hamster box disassembled in a day or two to analyze the damage.

1,093 (edited by Spank 2012-02-08 11:19 AM)

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

The Mini drop gear/idler gear arrangement is kinda interesting. Not sure (and too lazy to go back and look) if you need to reverse direction of rotation to get drive, but it may be something worth looking in to... And I know where you can get some for free, complete with a stub section of crank, the trans and idler housing case, and a mini flywheel/clutch assembly.

http://www.minimania.com/images/webstuff/keith/drop%20gears.jpg

1,094

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

I know this is a minuscule token of progress. but i got all the wiring fixed so it now meets the new kill switch rules for 2012. I also upgraded the main battery feed to 0 gauge wire.

I shot a bit of video for the Car & Driver thing and I figured I'd share the bit with the engine running: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vFv3a07mZw

as you can see, no more external battery assist required and it fires almost instantly. it also charges though not fully till the engine reaches about 1200RPM.

if you look closely, the top cylinder does shoot a bit of fire.

1,095

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

well, damn.

I finally got to the angry hamster box today and it's NOT what i wanted to see...

on the outside the damage was limited, a few of the bolts drug a bit:
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0109.jpg

on the inside, there was enough metal sludge to scare anyone:
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0110.jpg

the most disturbing part was the output shaft. it sheared off also! and it did not have that same massive side load applied:
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0112.jpg

here's the bit leftover from the shaft that fell out:
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0113.jpg

even the back of the flywheel was rubbing on the adapter plate:
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0115.jpg

here's the back of the flywheel:
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0116.jpg


it appears that the only reason it stayed together was because i got lucky and had a bunch of improvised aluminium on steel wear surfaces that kept everything reasonably inline because everything was so snug in there.

damn it.

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Ouch...
I can imagine there was a whole lot of drive line snatch with those power pulses, chains, gears and stuff.
Things that can surely take the torque (on paper) get busted by the shock load.

1,097

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

jiggermyster wrote:

Ouch...
I can imagine there was a whole lot of drive line snatch with those power pulses, chains, gears and stuff.
Things that can surely take the torque (on paper) get busted by the shock load.

yeah, the shock load was huge. no doubt about it. the angry hamster box just wasn't designed for the 350lb*ft of torque it received.

it is annoying that i can't re-use it for just one more shot. i really just wanted one good run before switching to a turboshaft engine.

1,098

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

so here's the scale of the problem. i thought i would have been able to use the angry hamster box and the current clutch setup. but apparently it's all gone to pot.

here's a new picture of the area in question:
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0118.jpg

and here's a dimensioned drawing of the area
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/transfercase%20spacejpg.jpg

in that space, i have to approximately triple the rpm, reverse the rotation and provide a clutch.

currently in the garage, i have four things that may help fill that gap:

1)GM auto 4x4 transfer case
this has a 2.73:1 step up and a clutch in it
it's 9.75" between centers and if the tailshaft is cut out, it would be 13" long
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0119.jpg

2)NP205
1.98:1 between any input and output, more configurable than the gm t-case, all gears instead of a chain.
9.75" between outputs and 16" long using both yokes on opposite sides
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0120.jpg

3) the casale v-drive i originally bought for this project
1.75:1 overdrive or underdrive or anything in between. provides rotation swap. has unfortunate 12 degree angle between shafts. about 6" drop, 9" deep
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0121.jpg
[img]http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/Airpl … _drive.jpg[/img[
(it has the extra 2.73:1 box on it in that pic, but it's easy to remove.)

4)NP203 transfer case. no pic, it uses spur gears for the 1.98:1 low range, might be usefull but not sure enough to bother dragging it out to take a picture.

my thought at the moment is to keep it as simple as possible and as strong as possible. it anyone has any ideas for something that would be a better fit, I'm listening.

1,099 (edited by Junkyard Dog 2012-02-16 07:49 PM)

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Is there any way you can put the clutch on the engine flywheel? Then you could use a 2 gear case between the clutch and the transmission input shaft. Martin Gear etc make all kinds of spur gears, the case would be merely (yeah, right! sounds so damn easy big_smile) a matter of fabrication.

http://martinsprocket.com/

Another long shot: tilt the engine and transmission 6 degrees each and use the Casale V drive.

Philosophy of life: old age and treachery will ALWAYS overcome youth, enthusiasm and cash. General smartass know it all beer swilling ne'er do well. Avoid eye contact with this person, best avoided completely. 2008 Animal House Racing CMP 'Most Likely To Leave In An Ambulance' 2009 Blind Rodent Racing CMP 2010 Team Galileo CMP 2011 Roundhouse Kick Racing CMP 2012 Road Kill Grill Racing CMP (x2)

1,100

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Junkyard Dog wrote:

Is there any way you can put the clutch on the engine flywheel? Then you could use a 2 gear case between the clutch and the transmission input shaft. Martin Gear etc make all kinds of spur gears, the case would be merely (yeah, right! sounds so damn easy big_smile) a matter of fabrication.

http://martinsprocket.com/

Another long shot: tilt the engine and transmission 6 degrees each and use the Casale V drive.

putting a clutch there isn't impossible. but it's far from easy. the clutch disk and pressure plate end up needing to be custom items because they need to handle a 4" shaft through the center.

also, there's the issue with not having a bellhousing to push against for the disengaging of the pressure plate.

the transmission and the motor already come within an 1/8" so to tilt them the bottom of the trans would have to go down. it's already impossible to unload from a trailer without the transmission leaving a divot in the grass. there's less than 3" clearance under there, i can't afford to lose more. tilting the motor would certainly be possible. there's no reason i can't other than it would require redoing quite a bit of work that is already done and works well.

I really do think a box with a few gears in it would work well. that Martin place does not do gears that will handle the speed and RPM that i need because it's over their limit of 1000ft/min of pitch speed. plus, having priced out stuff like that before it's a much better idea to scavenge from existing products.

something like this would fit perfectly: http://www.profabmachineinc.com/monster.html it would just be missing the clutch, but i could fabricate something for that (or pull a speedy cop and not put in a clutch at all)

this one would also work: http://www.scsgearbox.com/4x4-transfer-cases.html

but you guys don't want to know what the prices of those things are. it may not blow the judge's budget exempt view of this build's limits. but it blows my personal limits.

the only thing that looks semi-promising right now:
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/transfercase-space2.jpg

i'd have to merge the two boxes together. neither of which are expensive enough that i would feel bad welding the two together (the transfer case is cheap and the casale was $200 and available all day long)

i'd likely need to add an oil pump to the whole contraption to bring oil to the casale up top, but that isn't hard. heck, some well placed scrapers would probably do it. the transfer case's chain would pick up plenty of oil i bet.

i even have the tailshaft housing coupler from the GM transmission so i could weld that to what's left of the angry hamster box and the whole thing could hang there. (probably with an extra support rod or two to not snap off the whole thing) then the remaining gap could be bridged with a simple drive shaft.

but i'm not entirely happy with that solution.