1 Topic by EyeMWing (edited by EyeMWing 2012-04-15 05:59 PM)

  • From: Baltimore, MD
  • Registered: 2010-05-20
  • Posts: 1,329

Topic: Cracked block - Is this repairable?

1998/99 Crown Vic.

So after a seriously heroic thrash yesterday where we assembled prettymuch the entire car and started it at 8:30PM, we spotted a slow water leak from a very strange place - down the back of the block between the engine and transmission.

I figured it was a busted heater hose or something stupid, but when I went out today to check, I couldn't find anything... Until I stuck a stick into the valley between the cylinder banks and it came back wet. So I figured the stupid plastic intake manifold had cracked (they do that on these cars) or the stupid metal line to the back of the water pump had rusted through. Today's mission was to sit in the engine bay and take the intake manifold off. I accomplished that task and what I found was quite disheartening:

http://thumb.armedcats.net/e/ey/eyemwing/2012/04/15/300/IMG_0450.JPG
http://thumb.armedcats.net/e/ey/eyemwing/2012/04/15/300/IMG_0456.JPG
(click both to enlarge)

I think and/or hope it only penetrates a water channel. The oil seems to still be oily (of course, I just changed it yesterday). But the old stuff didn't look contaminated (then again, I wasn't really looking, either). There doesn't seem to be anything resembling a compression problem. The engine does stumble a bit under sudden revs, but other than that, it seems fine - see this video of last night's start: http://youtu.be/2a81yKMWuTM

The pooled water in the top (before I busted out the drain plug) did have a bit of an oily sheen to it, though.

Additionally, some jerk decided to tighten down one transmission mount bolt before even putting any others in and did this to the block yesterday:
http://thumb.armedcats.net/e/ey/eyemwing/2012/04/16/300/IMG_0459.JPG

So, do I scrub the car for Summit Point and start engine shopping, or do I get somebody to weld this thing back together?

Driver, Pit Monkey, Rod Buster and Engine Fire Starter
Team FinalGear
  • From: WPB Fl.
  • Registered: 2010-10-27
  • Posts: 755

Re: Cracked block - Is this repairable?

FUBAR Not even with bacon can this work.

No way I would show up to endurance race that, there is likely a history of overheating and likely something else will fail when asked to run hard.
Get another engine, take this one along for spare parts after you drain, grind, clean and braze(or mig if you think your god) This issue is serious enough without adding heat that close to the head, perhaps grind, and pour in JB weld?    Oh I hope that starter still works with all that going on, I see no repair for the lower crack.

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring Chump 6th-PBIR LeMons 9th - Charlotte Chump  Crash-n-Burn 9th
Sebring Chump 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Transmission 16th
Daytona 11th - Sebring 6th - Atlanta Motor Speedway 2nd - Road Atlanta Trans Fail 61st
Road Atlanta 5th

3 Reply by EyeMWing (edited by EyeMWing 2012-04-15 07:35 PM)

  • From: Baltimore, MD
  • Registered: 2010-05-20
  • Posts: 1,329

Re: Cracked block - Is this repairable?

Yeah, the engine does have an overheating history - and a freezing history. What actually broke it is a total tossup.


The starter is brand new and works just fine. It's actually not out of alignment badly enough for it to matter. I actually can't figure out why that tab is still pulled back so far - the engine and trans are flush at at the mount bolt directly above the starter and the whole rest of the way around. Either way, it hardly matters anymore - that engine won't be starting again.

I'll tear it down and use the mechanicals for spares - but the block itself will be a neat coffee table for the new garage.

Lessons learned:
-Remove and reinstall engine+trans together as a unit.
-NEVER celebrate while there's still a problem
-When Speedycop says "it needs a new engine", believe him.
-Don't change the oil until you know the engine is good.

Lessons remaining to be learned:
-How to break the news to the build crew that all their valiant work on Saturday needs to be undone.

Driver, Pit Monkey, Rod Buster and Engine Fire Starter
Team FinalGear
  • fiasco
  • fiasco
  • Ripened LeMon
  • Offline
  • From: Lyndeborough, NH
  • Registered: 2011-05-22
  • Posts: 373

Re: Cracked block - Is this repairable?

Yeah, dig around for a spare engine. You could try to JB Weld that crack (stronger than steel!), but I'd put about as much faith in that as I have in organized religion (ducks and covers).

A quick local car-part.com search found those engines (both cop and civilian) with under 150k on them for $500 all day long up here in NH.

Good luck!

fiasco's Website

  • 04crx
  • Ripened LeMon
  • Offline
  • From: valpararaiso, in.
  • Registered: 2010-02-21
  • Posts: 208

Re: Cracked block - Is this repairable?

engine time

If its not broke fix it till it is...
  • From: St Louis, MO
  • Registered: 2009-08-06
  • Posts: 982

Re: Cracked block - Is this repairable?

I blame Speedy and his gang of nutballs for this, the car was just fine (though not up to current safety specs) during our previous ownership of the car.

Team Final Gear Crew Chief
#138 1997 Pontiac GTP - Supercharged 3800
#42   1999 Ford P71 Crown Vic
  • From: Baltimore, MD
  • Registered: 2010-05-20
  • Posts: 1,329

Re: Cracked block - Is this repairable?

Nah, just standard issue FinalGear busted-engine luck.

Driver, Pit Monkey, Rod Buster and Engine Fire Starter
Team FinalGear
  • From: St Louis, MO
  • Registered: 2009-08-06
  • Posts: 982

Re: Cracked block - Is this repairable?

Doesn't this technically make it 2 in a row for you? tongue

Team Final Gear Crew Chief
#138 1997 Pontiac GTP - Supercharged 3800
#42   1999 Ford P71 Crown Vic
  • From: Baltimore, MD
  • Registered: 2010-05-20
  • Posts: 1,329

Re: Cracked block - Is this repairable?

Yes. I suppose I need to update my sig.

Driver, Pit Monkey, Rod Buster and Engine Fire Starter
Team FinalGear
  • Registered: 2009-10-25
  • Posts: 1,973

Re: Cracked block - Is this repairable?

Dump it no doubt.............4.6L engines are far to common and cheap not to replace it......

Richard Doty
1984 Porsche 928 "Estate"
Porsche- "there is A substitute" Racing
Dirt Poorsche Racing #2

11 Reply by EyeMWing (edited by EyeMWing 2012-04-16 02:53 PM)

  • From: Baltimore, MD
  • Registered: 2010-05-20
  • Posts: 1,329

Re: Cracked block - Is this repairable?

Just for fun I called up a couple full-service junkyards today. Why are all of those guys enormous pricks?

The vast majority of the conversations went like this:
"I need a complete longblock, ECU and engine harness for a 1998-2011 Crown Vic. Any year will do fine, preference towards later models - any engine code except the natural gas engine."
"Let me tell you how this works. I need an exact year, make, model and the full VIN number" (phrased in the most snotty way imaginable)
"That's the most inefficient way we could possibly find an engine for this car. They didn't change the powertrain in any meaningful way for 15 years. Can you just look in your inventory for any Crown Vics you have on the lot?"
"No."
"So you don't have any?"
"We do."
"... What model years?"
"1994, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007"
"So why did you tell me you couldn't look it up?"
"I can't."
"Fine. 2002 Ford Crown Victoria."
"VIN?"
"Any engine code except the CNG."
"... The VIN number sir"
"I know you're looking at the "Pick an engine" screen. I know for a fact that it has words next to each option. Pick any of them that don't say "CNG" or "Natural gas".

The ones that didn't just up and hang up on me for not following script and trying to do things usefully ended up giving me prices that exceed what my local mechanic would charge for a Jasper reman with no core return... Including install labor.


Seriously, your job is to sell me what I need - not for me to use you like some clunky over-the-phone proxy for your computer. The fact that I'm willing to be flexible should HELP your business because I can take that engine out of the shitpile that's been sitting around for most of a decade that you were about to write off to the scrapyard.

Driver, Pit Monkey, Rod Buster and Engine Fire Starter
Team FinalGear
  • From: WPB Fl.
  • Registered: 2010-10-27
  • Posts: 755

Re: Cracked block - Is this repairable?

If they are bing that dickish just settle for the script, give him the vin of the racer and live longer by avoiding strokes.

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring Chump 6th-PBIR LeMons 9th - Charlotte Chump  Crash-n-Burn 9th
Sebring Chump 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Transmission 16th
Daytona 11th - Sebring 6th - Atlanta Motor Speedway 2nd - Road Atlanta Trans Fail 61st
Road Atlanta 5th

13 Reply by EyeMWing (edited by EyeMWing 2012-04-16 03:05 PM)

  • From: Baltimore, MD
  • Registered: 2010-05-20
  • Posts: 1,329

Re: Cracked block - Is this repairable?

Ah, I was never going to buy the damned thing, I know those places wouldn't know a reasonable price from a hole in the head. Unless the price actually did turn out to be right, anyway. I just had a bunch of time to kill at work. I suppose I should at least figure out what engine code the car originally had, though.

Driver, Pit Monkey, Rod Buster and Engine Fire Starter
Team FinalGear
  • From: southeastern IN
  • Registered: 2009-12-06
  • Posts: 315

Re: Cracked block - Is this repairable?

www.car-part.com will answer those kind of questions...  smile

Nick
Focke Ewe racing -> Muttonheads! Racing
Out with the old whip -> 86ish VW GTI...
and into a Porsche 924 jihadmobile
  • From: Baltimore, MD
  • Registered: 2010-05-20
  • Posts: 1,329

Re: Cracked block - Is this repairable?

They come in two prices in this region
$WayMoreThanAWholeCar and $Call

Or a half dozen fasteners, a few harrowing minutes with a front end loader and under $500 for a full engine + transmission at a self-service joint.

Driver, Pit Monkey, Rod Buster and Engine Fire Starter
Team FinalGear
  • From: Round Rock, Tx
  • Registered: 2010-12-06
  • Posts: 389

Re: Cracked block - Is this repairable?

EyeMWing wrote:

"VIN?"
"Any engine code except the CNG."
"... The VIN number sir"

Have some fun, give them the VIN off a 95 Accord.  They want a matching VIN, ask them to walk out to the yard and get one.

Pucker Factor Racing - Gator-O-Rama, Feb '11, Yee-Haw It's LeMons Texas!, Oct '11
Scuderia Ignorante - Yee-Haw, It's LeMons Texas, Feb '12 (As seen in Car & Driver)
  • Registered: 2010-08-09
  • Posts: 1,432

Re: Cracked block - Is this repairable?

Tell them it's out of a 2002 Predator chainsaw edition http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvAI7-Qa2Io and make up a (13digit) VIN: 1MezUup666111

  • From: Central Joisy
  • Registered: 2009-10-10
  • Posts: 193

Re: Cracked block - Is this repairable?

What a load of crap to get a engine. What the hell do they need the VIN for? Are they looking for a match? What the hell?

Good luck on the engine search.

  • From: Baltimore, MD
  • Registered: 2010-05-20
  • Posts: 1,329

Re: Cracked block - Is this repairable?

It doesn't take luck to find a 4.6 - just a couple hours of weekend - which is what's really frustrating about this. If I'd even found the defect one week earlier, we'd still be taking it to Summit Point.

Driver, Pit Monkey, Rod Buster and Engine Fire Starter
Team FinalGear
  • From: WPB Fl.
  • Registered: 2010-10-27
  • Posts: 755

Re: Cracked block - Is this repairable?

Just use the spare engine you have laying around, it is normally no heroic feat to find these.

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring Chump 6th-PBIR LeMons 9th - Charlotte Chump  Crash-n-Burn 9th
Sebring Chump 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Transmission 16th
Daytona 11th - Sebring 6th - Atlanta Motor Speedway 2nd - Road Atlanta Trans Fail 61st
Road Atlanta 5th
  • From: Baltimore, MD
  • Registered: 2010-05-20
  • Posts: 1,329

Re: Cracked block - Is this repairable?

The on-hand "spare" is:
1) Committed to another project
2) Too young for LeMons
3) Attached to a car made of solid cheatonium.

I was holding off on buying an actual useful on-hand spare until the garage is built (carrying an iron-block V8 up and down steps is not very advisable)

Driver, Pit Monkey, Rod Buster and Engine Fire Starter
Team FinalGear
  • From: WPB Fl.
  • Registered: 2010-10-27
  • Posts: 755

Re: Cracked block - Is this repairable?

The answer lies at your call, think of it as a engine test for that other project!

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring Chump 6th-PBIR LeMons 9th - Charlotte Chump  Crash-n-Burn 9th
Sebring Chump 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Transmission 16th
Daytona 11th - Sebring 6th - Atlanta Motor Speedway 2nd - Road Atlanta Trans Fail 61st
Road Atlanta 5th

23 Reply by zebrabeefj40 (edited by zebrabeefj40 2012-04-19 08:38 AM)

  • From: southeastern IN
  • Registered: 2009-12-06
  • Posts: 315

Re: Cracked block - Is this repairable?

EyeMWing wrote:

Or a half dozen fasteners, a few harrowing minutes with a front end loader and under $500 for a full engine + transmission at a self-service joint.

or half dozen fasteners, a few minutes with your engine crane over your project car and 0$ = engine fer the LeMon.

...just sayin'...  wink

Nick
Focke Ewe racing -> Muttonheads! Racing
Out with the old whip -> 86ish VW GTI...
and into a Porsche 924 jihadmobile
  • From: Baltimore, MD
  • Registered: 2010-05-20
  • Posts: 1,329

Re: Cracked block - Is this repairable?

Well lets see...

The other project has a 69,000 mile stock non-PI engine. It needs some TLC after long storage, but should just fire up.

The PCM is configured for all sorts of cheaty driveline stuff, so I couldn't use that - but it's an exact year-to-year match for the LeMon's engine, so it should just swap over.

.... But risking an engine with that few miles (what alternate universe do I occupy that 69,000 miles is "like new"? Normal people get panicky and run high mileage oil at half that) which I hope to abuse with forced induction seems like it could only lead to disaster

.... But then I could put a PI engine in the project.

... Then again, I could also put the PI engine in the lemon.

.......The money I'd save by just driving somebody else's car for one race would buy me a lot of really bitchin' tools for the new garage, and I could do both of those engine swaps in the luxury of a fully equipped shop instead of in an open, unpaved driveway. (If everything goes to schedule with the construction, I'll be able to get the lift installed the week after Summit Point)

Driver, Pit Monkey, Rod Buster and Engine Fire Starter
Team FinalGear
  • From: WPB Fl.
  • Registered: 2010-10-27
  • Posts: 755

Re: Cracked block - Is this repairable?

Risk? A healthy engine will do fine, heck it will appreciate the attention!

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring Chump 6th-PBIR LeMons 9th - Charlotte Chump  Crash-n-Burn 9th
Sebring Chump 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Transmission 16th
Daytona 11th - Sebring 6th - Atlanta Motor Speedway 2nd - Road Atlanta Trans Fail 61st
Road Atlanta 5th