Topic: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

http://blog.caranddriver.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/11-Porsche-Hell-In-the-24-Hours-of-LeMons-626x426.jpg

I have chosen the Porsche 924/944 as the subject for this week's Good/Bad LeMons Idea at Car and Driver. Every time I see a new LeMons team with a 924 or 944, I think to myself: "Keep an eye on these guys, because you might get a good Heroic Fix or I Got Screwed story out of them." This makes LeMons Porsches very good and very bad ideas.

So, now I'll probably have to change my identity and go into hiding, because the Porsche 944 Jihad will be issuing a fatwa on me for disrespecting The Greatest Car Ever Built. As we all know, 50/50 weight balance is the key to winning endurance races.

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

I enjoyed how Nick put it last July at gingerman:

"What could you possibly do a car that already has one of the worst reputations in Lemons history to make it even less reliable?  How replacing the engine and transmission with something from an even less reliable car; like a Ford Turbo Coupe..."

Our Lady of Blessed Acceleration, don't fail me now!

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

At Thunderhill in consecutive years the same 944 passed us on the front straight...then promptly threw it's internal engine parts (plus a little oil) all over the front of our car.  Same spot, same car, different race.  He did get the pass though...

Team Oly Express
Current car - 1964.5 Plymouth Barracuda, Former car - Size Does Matter 1967 Plymouth Fury
07 IOE Winner Thunderhill, 12 IOE Winner Sears Pointless
https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Team- … 4609354407

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

As one of the hapless participants of the "Great ECR bent-valve snake-egg-infested junkyard motor head rebuild of 2011" (and I'm gonna be driving that car in a couple days at the real '24' ECR craziness) I can attest to the German 'why use one fastener when 7 will do?' engineering process...

50/50 weight balance means dealing with a rear-mount transaxle and swizzle-stick driveshaft and woe be to those who have to replace any of those driveline parts. Similar to Phil's quote in the article- 'Normally a rwd clutch job takes an hour or so, but I think the factory 944 swap time is 8 hours...'

ONSET (One Night Stand Endurance Team)
The J-Body will rise again! It's TIME for a Cimarron!
The 2012 assault: 13 races, 17+ different cars, 8 states: (CA, WA, TX, VA, SC, NJ, CO, WI). A very good year.
2007/2012 Driver's Championship (a dubious honor indeed!)

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

A free 944 is too expensive.

We affirm that the world's magnificence has been enriched by a new beauty: the beauty of speed. A racing car whose hood is adorned with great pipes, like serpents of an explosive breath- a roaring automobile that seems to run on machine-gun fire is more beautiful than the victory of Samothrace.  --Filippo Marinetti

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

I bought a 924S when i was 19 for a very lemony price for the purpose of teaching myself to work on cars. That car taught me that car designers are evil and purposely plan things so that easy maintenance jobs become awful to perform. Took me over 3 days to get the engine out the first time. I almost used the car as a lemons car, but wised up to the fact that it was probably a horrible idea.

1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby, 1987 Dodge Shelby Charger (new build)
2011 Loudon Annoying - I Got Screwed; Stafford - I Got Screwed
2012 Halloween Hooptiefest - Organizer's Choice
Best Finish - 2013 Loudon Annoying - 48th with 336 laps all on one engine.

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

TheEngineer wrote:

I bought a 924S when i was 19 for a very lemony price for the purpose of teaching myself to work on cars. That car taught me that car designers are evil and purposely plan things so that easy maintenance jobs become awful to perform. Took me over 3 days to get the engine out the first time. I almost used the car as a lemons car, but wised up to the fact that it was probably a horrible idea.


And went w/ a turbo Chrysler instead?

Yikes!

Former Flyin Turd Race Team Captain  Now Silent But Deadly Racing Dictator for life!
Ricky Bobby's Laughing Clown Malt Liquor Thunderbird Turbo Coupe'- 21st @ Capitol Offense 2010, 17th @ DTW Bull Oil 2010
2011-Up in flames, Real Hoopties, off the wall, Capitol Offense 2011 in a clapped out 510, 18/84 @ VIR 24 505 Team America Mustang
2012-????  Real Hoopties, Capitol Offense, VIR 24

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

Sir Thomas Crapper wrote:

And went w/ a turbo Chrysler instead?

Yikes!


What can i say, i'm a bit of a glutton for punishment. The daytona's been fun. The fact that we turned laps this year was one of the most rewarding experiences of my life.

1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby, 1987 Dodge Shelby Charger (new build)
2011 Loudon Annoying - I Got Screwed; Stafford - I Got Screwed
2012 Halloween Hooptiefest - Organizer's Choice
Best Finish - 2013 Loudon Annoying - 48th with 336 laps all on one engine.

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

Turbo Chryslers are even more unreliable than 944s, but they're much, much, much easier to work on. Parts obtainment is very easy, too.

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

Yup. I can have the engine out in an hour if it's cold. 2 if it's hot, 1.5 if i don't care about getting burned. Even when i knew the porsche engine bay inside and out it took over 5 hours to pull the engine the last time.

1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby, 1987 Dodge Shelby Charger (new build)
2011 Loudon Annoying - I Got Screwed; Stafford - I Got Screwed
2012 Halloween Hooptiefest - Organizer's Choice
Best Finish - 2013 Loudon Annoying - 48th with 336 laps all on one engine.

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

I tell people that the entire car is built like a 7-layer dip, and anything you want to fix will be somewhere around the bean layer.

Clogging up the Gulf Region with TetanusNeon since 2008 and now the TetanusRacing 944 too.
Guest drives with NSF, Rocket Surgery, Property Devaluation, Terminally Confused, Team Sputnik, and Spank's band of miscreants.
26 races and counting!

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

cpchampion wrote:

I tell people that the entire car is built like a 7-layer dip, and anything you want to fix will be somewhere around the bean layer.

But that green layer- that's not guacamole.

ONSET (One Night Stand Endurance Team)
The J-Body will rise again! It's TIME for a Cimarron!
The 2012 assault: 13 races, 17+ different cars, 8 states: (CA, WA, TX, VA, SC, NJ, CO, WI). A very good year.
2007/2012 Driver's Championship (a dubious honor indeed!)

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

On German cars in general, I've found that any serviceability is purely incidental.

We affirm that the world's magnificence has been enriched by a new beauty: the beauty of speed. A racing car whose hood is adorned with great pipes, like serpents of an explosive breath- a roaring automobile that seems to run on machine-gun fire is more beautiful than the victory of Samothrace.  --Filippo Marinetti

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

mechimike wrote:

On German cars in general, I've found that any serviceability is purely incidental.

Oddly enough, my daily-driver E39 isn't hard to work on.  Everything is generally accessible and makes sense.  It's problem is not how hard it is to service, rather how much service it requires.  Parts costs alone are breaking me.  I'll never own another german car.

Captain Confused
We might be yellow, but at least we are slow
I'm a WINNER!

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

I just found that my sunny-day driver Mercedes 450SL needed new plug wires (only running on 7 cylinders, a rodent chewed through #8) and the local parts jobber wanted $120 for a wire set.  I got the same brand set on Rock Auto, and a cap and rotor, for $75 shipped to my door.

Check around for your parts...

We affirm that the world's magnificence has been enriched by a new beauty: the beauty of speed. A racing car whose hood is adorned with great pipes, like serpents of an explosive breath- a roaring automobile that seems to run on machine-gun fire is more beautiful than the victory of Samothrace.  --Filippo Marinetti

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

German car manufacturers believe that only qualified mechanics with proper credentials should work on their cars, so they don't bother making them easy to fix (see: all-gray wiring harness in Porsche 928). Detroit manufacturers know that most car repairs are done by dudes armed with a suitcase of Milwaukee's Best and a big rock, and they design accordingly.

17 (edited by Bayley 2012-05-24 11:51 AM)

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

Judge Phil wrote:

German car manufacturers believe that only qualified mechanics with proper credentials should work on their cars, so they don't bother making them easy to fix (see: all-gray wiring harness in Porsche 928). Detroit manufacturers know that most car repairs are done by dudes armed with a suitcase of Milwaukee's Best and a big rock, and they design accordingly.

Having worked for / with German automotive engineers for the last 8 years, there is a reason we say: "There's an easy way to get the job done... and then there's the German way."

Germans are typically very compartmentalized in their engineering approach.  Everyone has their role to play / design and you don't dare step outside of those boundaries.  These engineers become very effective in their role, but unfortunately have little to no overlap thus resulting in overly complex engineering solutions.  The success of the design eventually falls on the weakest player in the team. 

Compare that to an American engineering approach where it's typical to have one or more "champions" that eventually spread themselves over the entire project.  The success of the American project has typically relied on how strong the champion(s) is and how far they get spread out during the project.  Remember; Henry Ford Sr. kidnapped a handful of engineers and brought them back to his airplane hanger (which is now the test track adjacent to Greenfield Village) for a couple weeks to develop his over head valve V8 engine.  While nowhere near that extreme, that is still the general feel for American engineering.

I could go on for days about the cultural differences between American and German engineering.  Both methods have their pros and cons.

Our Lady of Blessed Acceleration, don't fail me now!

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

mechimike wrote:

Check around for your parts...

Yeah.  I've been using the discount/cheap stuff.  It's volume, not cost that is killing me.  Problem is the whole damned car is made of plastic in one form or fashion.  I'm convinced the Germans lost WWII because they don't know how to make plastic.

Valve Cover?  Plastic!
Cooling fittings?  Plastic!
Fan?  Plastic!
Every bit of intake piping?  Plastic!
Idler pulleys?  Plastic!
Water pump?  Plastic!
Vanos oil seals?  Rubber! - but a really crappy kind of rubber.

Every bit of 10yr old southeast summer exposed plastic just crumbles when you touch it.

Captain Confused
We might be yellow, but at least we are slow
I'm a WINNER!

19 (edited by Mulry 2012-05-24 11:56 AM)

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

Bayley wrote:

Having worked for / with German automotive engineers... they are very compartmentalized in their engineering approach.  Everyone has their role to play / design and you don't dare step outside of those boundaries.  These engineers become very effective in their role, but unfortunately have little to no overlap thus resulting in overly complex engineering solutions.  The success of the design eventually falls on the weakest player in the team.

This is actually (and, I suspect, unintentionally) a pithy analogy for the entire EU crisis vis-a-vis Germany and Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal...

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing '67 SIMCA GLS 1000
"The SIMCA 1000 rear engined saloon is not a car which is going to be remembered in years to come for any particular reason.... It is not startling for its beauty, innovating with its design or particularly fast, economic or comfortable. However, it has been successful for SIMCA, especially in France."
--SIMCA 1000 Owners Workshop Manual, J.H. Haynes, 1973

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

I think the logical swap is:

1) take out slant 4 2.5l 151ci Porsche motor and overly complex transaxle

2) drop in slant 4 3.2l 195ci Pontiac motor and 2 speed Powerglide transaxle

3) make it rain nickles at the local club

What could possibly go wrong?

Constructor/Owner/Driver - Billy Beer Ford Futura

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

The only way that swap could be more brilliant is with the inclusion of Optispark

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

*shudder* Optispark

We affirm that the world's magnificence has been enriched by a new beauty: the beauty of speed. A racing car whose hood is adorned with great pipes, like serpents of an explosive breath- a roaring automobile that seems to run on machine-gun fire is more beautiful than the victory of Samothrace.  --Filippo Marinetti

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

Optispark, 60% of the time, it works everytime...

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

you miscreants need to step up to Mercedes.  The have found the trade off to be Money=design and longevity.  The cars ware way easy to work on and built rock solid, but you better get a second mortgage. I need new rockers and cams for the for the 560, ca-ching, 1,400 smack-a-roos right there.  IN PARTS ALONE.

Jackasic Heavy Industries - 20 losses and counting ...
89 VW Jettarosa - #337 (9 motors later) <> C class ringer - 67 Mercedes 200 - #200, winner "most with the least" MSR Feb 11, IOE at MSR June 11 <> b class ringer -  88 Mercedes 560 SEL <> now pimping performance parts for 1970-1980's Mercedes SEL, SEC, SL, SLC's www.feindms.com

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

Jackasic wrote:

you miscreants need to step up to Mercedes.  The have found the trade off to be Money=design and longevity.  The cars ware way easy to work on and built rock solid, but you better get a second mortgage. I need new rockers and cams for the for the 560, ca-ching, 1,400 smack-a-roos right there.  IN PARTS ALONE.

Just talk the California teams into pulling those parts off junked 560s for you-- they're incredibly common and cheap in West Coast Pick-A-Part yards.