Topic: Help a 3,800lb car to not hurt anyone at Summit...

Bought a new master cylinder for the Galaxie... the only braking component we haven't replaced... bench bled it, installed it and while bleeding the brakes we hear a 'pop' from the front of the car.  Before the 'pop' while bleeding the rears, bleeding would shoot fluid five feet from the rear; post 'pop' we get a very small amount of fluid and the pedal will barely compress even with the bleed valve open.  The fronts shoot a ton of fluid while bleeding.  The rears seem to be a little bit engaged... tough to spin w/o some leverage, but I did just replace the pads.

Did we blow a seal or something in the rear circuit in the master?  Someone mentioned a collapsed line as a possibility, but I'm not seeing it or what necessarily to check for.

Thoughts?

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Re: Help a 3,800lb car to not hurt anyone at Summit...

Is there a pressure differential valve-- meaning is there a safety feature whereby when you lose pressure to one half of the system it slides a shuttle valve over and closes the weak side off allowing you to still "safely" stop? Might you have triggered that?

Re: Help a 3,800lb car to not hurt anyone at Summit...

Spank's on to something, a lot of the 60's-70's Ferd products used a safety shuttle valve.  We removed ours from the LTD, it was causing us bleeding fits. 

Are you using a dual chamber master cylinder? 

Also, check the rear flex hose...the single flex hose to the rear axle.  If its damaged, it could be restricting flow to the back brakes.

We affirm that the world's magnificence has been enriched by a new beauty: the beauty of speed. A racing car whose hood is adorned with great pipes, like serpents of an explosive breath- a roaring automobile that seems to run on machine-gun fire is more beautiful than the victory of Samothrace.  --Filippo Marinetti

Re: Help a 3,800lb car to not hurt anyone at Summit...

Is your brake light on?

Late 60s Mustangs (dual chamber master cylinder) had a valve in the plumbing that seemed to look for pressure in both circuits and lit up a light if not.  A little brass thing with wires coming off it.  I'd look for one of those and check it.

Re: Help a 3,800lb car to not hurt anyone at Summit...

The diff pressure valve is stuck over in the "Cutoff fluid to leaky rear circuit" position.  The valve saw the bleeding of the rear and the good pressure in the front as a massive leak in the brakes and popped the old stuck piston loose in the DPV

If it were my racey car, the diff pressure valve would be gone, with a dual circuit MC supplying brake pressure and an inexpensive Jeg's adjustable PV used to cut down pressure in the rear brake circuit.

Jim C.
Muttonheads!, nee Focke-eWe190 81-85-86-87-95-97 GTI
People wonder why I'm obsessed with cars.  I wonder why they are not.
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Re: Help a 3,800lb car to not hurt anyone at Summit...

Thanks guys.

In order of the Q's received:
Unfortunately the MC came with zero documentation, so I'm not sure if it has a diff valve.  Even the box had no writing on it.
Yes, it's a dual chamber MC.  The rear flex hoses are still in 'like new' condition.
The MC is literally the only thing left from the original brake system and I didn't reuse the idiot light thingy.

I'm not sure, but it sounds like the MC has a diff pressure valve.  How would one remove said valve... pull the piston assembly out of the MC?  Is it possible the valve is actually in the distribution block?

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Re: Help a 3,800lb car to not hurt anyone at Summit...

DC Doug wrote:

f the MC?  Is it possible the valve is actually in the distribution block?

yes. possible. And possible it's in the master cylinder.

To avoid a situation with those shuttle valves, crack one front and one rear and bleed F&R  simultaneously.

Re: Help a 3,800lb car to not hurt anyone at Summit...

To avoid tripping that safety valve, you can also gravity bleed the brakes - but that takes a heck of a long time.. 
Another option is to build a pressure bleeder using a yard sprayer, like so:
http://faculty.ccp.edu/faculty/dreed/ca … /index.htm

To un-trip the safety valve, you need to close all the bleeders and press the brake pedal HARD... or like everyone else said, ditch the factory combination valve and go with a cheap jegs/summit/speedway adjustable proportioning valve.

-Jason

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Re: Help a 3,800lb car to not hurt anyone at Summit...

The safety valve was in the distribution block on our LTD.  You'll want to get a different distribution block.

We affirm that the world's magnificence has been enriched by a new beauty: the beauty of speed. A racing car whose hood is adorned with great pipes, like serpents of an explosive breath- a roaring automobile that seems to run on machine-gun fire is more beautiful than the victory of Samothrace.  --Filippo Marinetti

Re: Help a 3,800lb car to not hurt anyone at Summit...

2 items that may or may not help:

1)  late 60's - 80 Triumph products have a shuttle inside the distribution block that does just what you've described.
2)  There's an electric switch that lights an idiot light on the dash if the shuttle is moved.  I have heard that a Ford switch is an exact replacement for the NLA Triumph switch.

If there's an unscrewable plastic switch in the center of your distribution block, unscrew said switch.  If it's like the Triumph block, you will see a small shuttle that you can recentralize with a sharp point (ice pick, dental pick, etc.).  It will make sense when you look at it...good luck!!!!

Jamie Palmer
Austin Powerless Racing  ??? debut at Summit Point
RiffRAF Racing   '75 Triumph TR6
tr6driver@yahoo.com

Re: Help a 3,800lb car to not hurt anyone at Summit...

your looking for something like this.

http://compare.ebay.com/like/2508116916 … p;var=sbar

2 brake lines in, and 2 brake lines out, with a single wire coming out from it. When the inner valve piece (hour glass shaped) moves toward one end to seal off the leaky brake circuit, it make contact with the single wire and grounds it and the brake light on the dash comes on.

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?Everyone who has ever built anywhere a 'new heaven' first found the power thereto in his own hell- Frederick Nietzsche

Re: Help a 3,800lb car to not hurt anyone at Summit...

I figured it was in the distribution block and I do have the plastic bit/sender.  I'll unf**K it tomorrow and then look to source a distribution block w/o the "pressure differential valve".

Thanks to everyone here!

NSF Racing // Speedycop Gang
Summit '10, CMP #3 '10, Autobahn '10, CMP #1 '11, NJMP '11, CMP #2 '11, Summit '11, Gingerman #2 '11, Stafford '11, Charlotte '11, Autobahn '11, ECR '11, CMP #1 '12, NJMP '12, Gingerman '12, NHMS #1 '12, Summit '12, CMP #2 '12, NHMS #2 '12, ECR '12, CMP #1 '13, Infamous Rulebreaker: Chihuahua Express '13, ECR '13, Summit '13
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Re: Help a 3,800lb car to not hurt anyone at Summit...

Your local Napa/Advance/Autozone/O'Reilly's should have a splitter block that will work for you.

We affirm that the world's magnificence has been enriched by a new beauty: the beauty of speed. A racing car whose hood is adorned with great pipes, like serpents of an explosive breath- a roaring automobile that seems to run on machine-gun fire is more beautiful than the victory of Samothrace.  --Filippo Marinetti

Re: Help a 3,800lb car to not hurt anyone at Summit...

Just hit the JY and pull 2 tees from any similar (american) car. There is usually one in the front to split the front line, sometimes on the firewall. There is also one on the rear axle to split the line after the flexible line from the body to the axle.

Dudes Ex Machina: https://www.facebook.com/dudesexmachina

?Everyone who has ever built anywhere a 'new heaven' first found the power thereto in his own hell- Frederick Nietzsche

Re: Help a 3,800lb car to not hurt anyone at Summit...

Thanks.  I'm going to pick up a simple T for the fronts and a junction for the rear line.

NSF Racing // Speedycop Gang
Summit '10, CMP #3 '10, Autobahn '10, CMP #1 '11, NJMP '11, CMP #2 '11, Summit '11, Gingerman #2 '11, Stafford '11, Charlotte '11, Autobahn '11, ECR '11, CMP #1 '12, NJMP '12, Gingerman '12, NHMS #1 '12, Summit '12, CMP #2 '12, NHMS #2 '12, ECR '12, CMP #1 '13, Infamous Rulebreaker: Chihuahua Express '13, ECR '13, Summit '13
Class C winnah! (x2)