1 Topic by lemonphil (edited by lemonphil 2012-06-10 10:10 PM)

  • From: Erie, CO
  • Registered: 2012-06-02
  • Posts: 35

Topic: so... we bought our car, and a suspension question

for better or worse we picked up an 89 mx-6 turbo, runs pretty good and doesn't need much of anything, a seal or two here and there, I saw a thread saying we need more crappy factory turbo cars, so we'll see if it turns more than one lap...

Anyway the downside is we paid dearly for it and not being particularly desirable there isn't much of value to sell off it, and the suspension is pretty shot. Not having any real budget left for upgrades I'm trying to decide what to do, I mean really the car is unsafe as is and I'm going for semi- functioning OEM at this point, not an upgrade but again.. the budget....

is it just me or are the high scrap prices making it harder to find cheap cars? why hassle with craigslist scumbags when you can get a quick 5 hundo from a scrap yard...Anywhooo one of the team members has a serious stiffy for old mazdas and I guess I let him talk me into spending to much or I wouldn't be up against it so much...

He just texted that he found some new OEM stuff on CL for $50 for the fronts, maybe I can haggle them down to $30 but then how do I prove I paid what I paid? sad

  • From: Mini-so-ta
  • Registered: 2010-09-08
  • Posts: 1,072

Re: so... we bought our car, and a suspension question

Bring the best documentation you can.  If the judges believe it, they believe it.  If they don't...what did you bring for a bribe?

If you get laps your first time, don't sweat it--you will probably prove on-track that your car is in fact a piece of crap, and you won't get laps next time smile

Binford "More Power" Racing, 1989 Chevy Beretta GT

#1: "In my area, I have suddenly begun seeing more and more Berettas...what gives here?"
#2: "Simple: your neighborhood is getting overrun with meth dealers, and it's time to move."

3 Reply by lemonphil (edited by lemonphil 2012-06-11 06:28 AM)

  • From: Erie, CO
  • Registered: 2012-06-02
  • Posts: 35

Re: so... we bought our car, and a suspension question

obsolete wrote:

Bring the best documentation you can.  If the judges believe it, they believe it.  If they don't...what did you bring for a bribe?

If you get laps your first time, don't sweat it--you will probably prove on-track that your car is in fact a piece of crap, and you won't get laps next time smile


Lol, I guess you're right.
I have zero hope this thing will actually run more than an hour or two but at least it has a new clutch from the previous owner. Now on to fixing those leaking cam/crank seals.... something about taking an oil soaked timing belt off, replacing a seal, and reusing the TB because I can't afford another just feels weird.

  • Spank
  • Utter Madman
  • Offline
  • From: Escondido, CA
  • Registered: 2009-06-10
  • Posts: 3,074

Re: so... we bought our car, and a suspension question

You think your suspension is squishy?! Be very thankful that you didn't get that America

http://www.initialdave.com/cars/tech/suspensionbasics07/transferbig.gif

(thanks again, btw, for posting that it was on CL-- you're welcome to a stint in my already-prepped America when we're at the same venue-- just come up and let me know/remind me when you see me with it at the track)

Don't sweat replacing the OEM stuff with Craigslist finds and don't bother trying to hide/paint whatever you put on the car that may worry you. The biggest "rookie mistake" someone can make is caring how many bs laps they're going to get before they've even done one LeMons event in their car. Do your best to stay in budget and in the spirit of the event. Fess up to anything that makes you feel quasi-concerned (maybe in writing with the confession written on a $20 or $100 bill?) and expect to finish at the top of the BS laps tally board.

BS is often arbitrary and you will get howevermany laps the judges think you will need to slow you down enough so that you have fun.

Spank's Website

  • From: oklahoma city
  • Registered: 2009-10-08
  • Posts: 1,542

Re: so... we bought our car, and a suspension question

shot suspension is a straightforward fix, for most cars.

if you have a friendly local napa, oreillys, autozone, or whatever, scour their suspension books for what part number fits the holes in your car. most of those books have a reverse lookup, so you can then see what else your parts fit. mx-6 turbos might be hard to find, but 626s and ford probes probably aren't.

you might not get exact fits/damper rates, but you'll probably find something close enough at the local salvage yards / pick-n-pulls.

barring that, take some solid measurements and scour the pull-a-part. McPherson struts only come in a few flavors, when it comes down to it, and those 929 struts might be perfect once you lop a coil or two off the springs.

worst case, buy new off the aftermarket shelf (OE replacement black paint/white box no-name stuff) and risk the laps.

perhaps a video of your buddies rocking the car 30 plus degrees port to starboard on the stock stuff would convince the judges that your money was spent on budget exempt safety items and not go-fast racing crap.

Team OK-Speed
Regularly losing in Class A
Soon to start losing in Class C
  • From: Van Nuys, CA
  • Registered: 2011-02-11
  • Posts: 2,619

Re: so... we bought our car, and a suspension question

I hate to tell people things that will result in them being a lot faster that me on the track, but here goes.

Just replace the struts if they are bad with typical aftermarket name brand stuff:
Front MONROE Part # 71837  $24 on closeout at Rock Auto
w/ Automatic Adjusting Suspension; Front
w/o Automatic Adjusting Suspension; Use PN[AK51] to Replace OEM Lower Mounting Hardware if Necessary; Front

Rear MONROE Part # 71838  $38.79
w/o Automatic Adjusting Suspension; Use PN[AK51] to Replace OEM Lower Mounting Hardware if Necessary; Rear; GT Model

or

Rear MONROE Part # 71631 $53.79
w/ Automatic Adjusting Suspension; Rear

If it doesn't say Bilstien, or KYB, or Tokiko, or whatever I doubt the judges will really sweat you on it. You don't need the OEM adjustable suspension, if your car is equipt. This is a race car. Cut the springs, stiffen it up and forget it. Its not like, once the cage is in it, you are going to want to set it on "comfort" and lend it to your mom to run to the store.  I know nothing about these cars and their factory suspension options, except what I see on the parts listings, so do some research in the forums.  Speaking of the forums, you may be able to get replacement struts on the forums for free from someone who has just upgraded to coil overs, I got a lot of spare parts for my car once I started talking to people on the related forums.

But most importantly, DO NOT reuse the oily timing belt. It will only result in heart break a few hours into the race when it tears some teeth and the cam stops turning.  Rock Auto has the belt for less than $20, and the tension for about that too. Its cheap, it will only make the car faster in so much as it makes the car run, and no one will even see it under the timing cover anyway.

You are going to blow a hole through the side of the motor anyway before the end of Saturday, but at least you can have fun until then.

Constructor/Owner/Driver - Billy Beer Ford Futura

Parkwod60's Website

7 Reply by lemonphil (edited by lemonphil 2012-06-11 08:21 AM)

  • From: Erie, CO
  • Registered: 2012-06-02
  • Posts: 35

Re: so... we bought our car, and a suspension question

Parkwod60 wrote:

You are going to blow a hole through the side of the motor anyway before the end of Saturday, but at least you can have fun until then.

I hope so! big_smile

I really really REALLY did not want a FWD as I don't really like working on them, but here we are. The car will run like a raped ape in the straights until we lunch a turbo.... It really pulls, holds about 11-12psi of boost on the PO's crappy boost gauge so I need to see if someone has put a home depot boost controller on it, might dial that back a little... I'm glad we didn't find an rx7, or e30 or something, I hope there aren't too many probe/mx6's out

I wish the interior bits were worth more money, they're pretty clean except the headliner I think maybe the sunroof was broken or leaked and it got wet, anyway the headliner and visors and stuff have definitely been soaking wet and maybe that's the cause of the salvage title, who knows. Even those neato power swinging vents I forgot mazda used in the 80s and 90s still work and the AC works good so if I can find a buyer for the compressor I guess there's my $100-$150 for shocks/struts.

Wilco on the belt, near as I can tell it is not an interference motor so if it did let go or I screw up the instal (always a possibility) it's a quickish fix, I'm worried about the alternator shorting maybe I can find a used, non-oil soaked one.

8 Reply by lemonphil (edited by lemonphil 2012-06-11 08:20 AM)

  • From: Erie, CO
  • Registered: 2012-06-02
  • Posts: 35

Re: so... we bought our car, and a suspension question

Spank wrote:

You think your suspension is squishy?! Be very thankful that you didn't get that America

http://www.initialdave.com/cars/tech/suspensionbasics07/transferbig.gif

(thanks again, btw, for posting that it was on CL-- you're welcome to a stint in my already-prepped America when we're at the same venue-- just come up and let me know/remind me when you see me with it at the track)

Don't sweat replacing the OEM stuff with Craigslist finds and don't bother trying to hide/paint whatever you put on the car that may worry you. The biggest "rookie mistake" someone can make is caring how many bs laps they're going to get before they've even done one LeMons event in their car. Do your best to stay in budget and in the spirit of the event. Fess up to anything that makes you feel quasi-concerned (maybe in writing with the confession written on a $20 or $100 bill?) and expect to finish at the top of the BS laps tally board.

BS is often arbitrary and you will get howevermany laps the judges think you will need to slow you down enough so that you have fun.

I think it's a cool project, if I had the fab skills to weld in a different motor I'd have probably bought it. Wonder how you could fit a motorcycle engine in there without the expensive transaxle they sell for the minis..... I'm glad to see it find a happy home.

Maybe I'm just taking the budget thing too seriously. More importantly how am I going to get my pellet grill to the track so I can cook ribs, steaks, burgers, and brats all weekend.... Since we all work together we have a direction to go with the theme, just have to figure out what that will be and how far we can go without getting fired...

  • From: Dallas, Tx
  • Registered: 2012-03-15
  • Posts: 325

Re: so... we bought our car, and a suspension question

Ball joints, tie-rod ends, rotors, calipers, brake lines, pads, and even the battery are considered safety items, not in budget.  If you stay with OEM or remanunfactured parts for those things and put some good race pads on it, you are halfway there.

Struts and springs are in budget, but going OEM (or OEM-like) will not get you dinged as bad.  Fancy coil-over setups will get you dinged.

BTW, wheels and tires are not in budget.  However, we opted to stick with the original 14" rims (w/Dunlop Star Specs).  I think that bought us some points with the judges on the BS inspection and we had plenty of tire under the car, light wheels/tires, and a perfect final drive ratio.

For the motor, we kept our '93 626 original wherever possible, right down to the air box .  We replaced parts that had already gone bad and had spares for parts that were going bad.  On a LeMons budget, you will not make more horsepower without killing reliability.  This is especially true for Mazda's (or all Japanese made cars for that matter).  We avoided the temptation to pull the thermostat out, install a monster oil cooler, or re-wire all the electrics.  Mazda engineer's a pretty stout little car, there is little need to re-engineer  (unless it has a Ford transmission).

Keep in mind that you and your team are paying good money (car, safety gear, fees, etc) for a weekend of track time.  Build a car that is in the spirit of the rules and will be fun to drive, don't sweat each and every dollar or penny in the budget.  If you are still worried about BS laps, spend some extra time on theme and costumes.  That was our approach for our first race a few weeks ago.  We were very happy with the results.

2012 North Dallas Hooptie Judge's Choice Winners
If life gives you lemons, install racing brakes!
https://www.facebook.com/JoBoRacing

racerxr's Website

10 Reply by lemonphil (edited by lemonphil 2012-06-11 08:33 AM)

  • From: Erie, CO
  • Registered: 2012-06-02
  • Posts: 35

Re: so... we bought our car, and a suspension question

racerxr wrote:

Ball joints, tie-rod ends, rotors, calipers, brake lines, pads, and even the battery are considered safety items, not in budget.  If you stay with OEM or remanunfactured parts for those things and put some good race pads on it, you are halfway there.

Struts and springs are in budget, but going OEM (or OEM-like) will not get you dinged as bad.  Fancy coil-over setups will get you dinged.

BTW, wheels and tires are not in budget.  However, we opted to stick with the original 14" rims (w/Dunlop Star Specs).  I think that bought us some points with the judges on the BS inspection and we had plenty of tire under the car, light wheels/tires, and a perfect final drive ratio.

For the motor, we kept our '93 626 original wherever possible, right down to the air box .  We replaced parts that had already gone bad and had spares for parts that were going bad.  On a LeMons budget, you will not make more horsepower without killing reliability.  This is especially true for Mazda's (or all Japanese made cars for that matter).  We avoided the temptation to pull the thermostat out, install a monster oil cooler, or re-wire all the electrics.  Mazda engineer's a pretty stout little car, there is little need to re-engineer  (unless it has a Ford transmission).

Keep in mind that you and your team are paying good money (car, safety gear, fees, etc) for a weekend of track time.  Build a car that is in the spirit of the rules and will be fun to drive, don't sweat each and every dollar or penny in the budget.  If you are still worried about BS laps, spend some extra time on theme and costumes.  That was our approach for our first race a few weeks ago.  We were very happy with the results.


I think... the car won't need much, previous owner had put a lot into it, the cooling system is newish so I'll leave that alone other than swapping water in.. the stock intercooler is kind of beastly, that's cool. It has plenty of HP so my only concerns are making it safe, seriously it tried to change lanes on me by itself on the test drive when I stomped on it... and anything I can do for reliability. We were talking a redneck water injection setup, I can do it for a couple dollars. Car runs really cool now so I don't think it'll overheat? It'll puke it's guts out in some other spectacular fashion I'm sure. As long as everyone on the team gets a turn at the wheel I'm a happy camper, I'd really hate for 3 guys to spend the next year building this up and not ever get to drive it.

here it is before we drove it to my garage- note the carpet subtley camouflaging the massive oil leak. Actually the seller was an alright guy and I do feel bad for beating him up on the price, but I have a budget to mind! I almost hate to pull the interior apart, it's 23 years old and all works.
http://i45.tinypic.com/ozfp2.jpg

  • From: Dallas, Tx
  • Registered: 2012-03-15
  • Posts: 325

Re: so... we bought our car, and a suspension question

lemonphil wrote:

...As long as everyone on the team gets a turn at the wheel I'm a happy camper, I'd really hate for 3 guys to spend the next year building this up and not ever get to drive it...

We had the same priority.  We ran 30 minute stints our first sessions just to improve the chances everyone got a session in the car before it expired.

I agree, If that boost gauge is correct, do anything you can to reduce the boost.  Also, include a new head gasket in your stash of spares :-)

More boost = more power = more heat/stress = more spectacular failure.

2012 North Dallas Hooptie Judge's Choice Winners
If life gives you lemons, install racing brakes!
https://www.facebook.com/JoBoRacing

racerxr's Website

  • From: Erie, CO
  • Registered: 2012-06-02
  • Posts: 35

Re: so... we bought our car, and a suspension question

I think they're 9 or 10 stock no? It's very possible the gauge is off too, he claims it's 100% stock no mods though he removed the airbox and put a cone filter on the MAF

  • gunn
  • Ripened LeMon
  • Offline
  • From: SF, CA
  • Registered: 2010-12-18
  • Posts: 346

Re: so... we bought our car, and a suspension question

psychoboy wrote:

if you have a friendly local napa, oreillys, autozone, or whatever, scour their suspension books for what part number fits the holes in your car. most of those books have a reverse lookup, so you can then see what else your parts fit. mx-6 turbos might be hard to find, but 626s and ford probes probably aren't.

Or you can just look at the internet....
From rockauto.com, the following cars use the same Monroe front Strut Assembly
FORD    PROBE    (1989 - 1992)
MAZDA    626    (1988 - 1992)
MAZDA    MX-6    (1988 - 1992)

Better springs will require measuring and review of Moog's coil specifications.
http://classiccarsprings.com/coil-sprin … tions.html
This can then point you to cars to look under at the JY.
-g

  • gunn
  • Ripened LeMon
  • Offline
  • From: SF, CA
  • Registered: 2010-12-18
  • Posts: 346

Re: so... we bought our car, and a suspension question

psychoboy wrote:

if you have a friendly local napa, oreillys, autozone, or whatever, scour their suspension books for what part number fits the holes in your car. most of those books have a reverse lookup, so you can then see what else your parts fit. mx-6 turbos might be hard to find, but 626s and ford probes probably aren't.

Or you can just look at the internet....
From rockauto.com, the following cars use the same Monroe front Strut Assembly
FORD    PROBE    (1989 - 1992)
MAZDA    626    (1988 - 1992)
MAZDA    MX-6    (1988 - 1992)

Better springs will require measuring and review of Moog's coil specifications.
http://classiccarsprings.com/coil-sprin … tions.html
This can then point you to cars to look under at the JY.
-g

  • From: Doin' Crime in 21229
  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 2,155

Re: so... we bought our car, and a suspension question

That car looks nicer than what I drive to work every day.

We affirm that the world's magnificence has been enriched by a new beauty: the beauty of speed. A racing car whose hood is adorned with great pipes, like serpents of an explosive breath- a roaring automobile that seems to run on machine-gun fire is more beautiful than the victory of Samothrace.  --Filippo Marinetti

mechimike's Website

  • From: Erie, CO
  • Registered: 2012-06-02
  • Posts: 35

Re: so... we bought our car, and a suspension question

it's pretty good overall for having 230k on it. We'll see how many more it makes it....

  • From: Issaquah, Wa
  • Registered: 2009-09-06
  • Posts: 1,020

Re: so... we bought our car, and a suspension question

Wow, nice looking car, paint's even shiny.  Those cars have done really well in LeMons (the Thundercock team comes to mind, come to think of it, have they won overall?), but I don't think their cars were turbos.

-Matt

16 Time Losers with a Class C, Index of Effluency, I got Screwed and Heroic Fix Trophies who race, according to Car and Driver, The Greatest Road Racing Cherokee in History.

Check out our FB Page and follow our various exploits.

TeamPettyCash's Website

  • From: Van Nuys, CA
  • Registered: 2011-02-11
  • Posts: 2,619

Re: so... we bought our car, and a suspension question

"tried to change lanes all by itself when I stepped on it"

Uhm, don't know how old you are, but that isn't something wrong with the car, that is how early turbo charged front wheel drive cars behave. All of them. Replacing things like ball joints and tie rod ends (all not included as budgetary items) may make it a little better, but it took until the 2000s to get powerful front wheel drive cars to behave.

Constructor/Owner/Driver - Billy Beer Ford Futura

Parkwod60's Website

19 Reply by stimpyvan (edited by stimpyvan 2012-06-11 01:46 PM)

  • From: Very Rainy Washington State
  • Registered: 2011-06-27
  • Posts: 401

Re: so... we bought our car, and a suspension question

Spank wrote:

You think your suspension is squishy?! Be very thankful that you didn't get that America

http://www.initialdave.com/cars/tech/suspensionbasics07/transferbig.gif

So, you would advise against the $500 Princess that's for sale up here? A hydrolastic suspension sounds so high tech.

2012 - Sears Pointless (lost), PNWGP (lost), Vodden the Hell (lost)
2013 - Sears Pointless (lost), Even More Pointless (lost), PNWGp (pending), Vodden the Hell (pending)
  • From: Very Rainy Washington State
  • Registered: 2011-06-27
  • Posts: 401

Re: so... we bought our car, and a suspension question

racerxr wrote:

I agree, If that boost gauge is correct, do anything you can to reduce the boost.

^ Worst advice.  Ever.

racerxr wrote:

More boost = more power = more heat/stress = more spectacular failure.

^ Best advice.  Ever.

2012 - Sears Pointless (lost), PNWGP (lost), Vodden the Hell (lost)
2013 - Sears Pointless (lost), Even More Pointless (lost), PNWGp (pending), Vodden the Hell (pending)
  • From: southeastern IN
  • Registered: 2009-12-06
  • Posts: 315

Re: so... we bought our car, and a suspension question

lemonphil wrote:

Wilco on the belt, near as I can tell it is not an interference motor so if it did let go or I screw up the instal (always a possibility) it's a quickish fix, I'm worried about the alternator shorting maybe I can find a used, non-oil soaked one.

On the alternator: I've seen/bought quite a few fresh reman alternators from cars in the junkyard.  As in the reman sticker is still on the alternator and the case looked fresh outa the box.  $30 from my local yard no matter what car you pulled it from.

Nick
Focke Ewe racing -> Muttonheads! Racing
Out with the old whip -> 86ish VW GTI...
and into a Porsche 924 jihadmobile
  • From: Erie, CO
  • Registered: 2012-06-02
  • Posts: 35

Re: so... we bought our car, and a suspension question

Parkwod60 wrote:

"tried to change lanes all by itself when I stepped on it"

Uhm, don't know how old you are, but that isn't something wrong with the car, that is how early turbo charged front wheel drive cars behave. All of them. Replacing things like ball joints and tie rod ends (all not included as budgetary items) may make it a little better, but it took until the 2000s to get powerful front wheel drive cars to behave.

NNaw this isn't run of the mill torque steer, this was 'I'm changing lanes and you aren't stopping me." Steer.

  • From: Van Nuys, CA
  • Registered: 2011-02-11
  • Posts: 2,619

Re: so... we bought our car, and a suspension question

My 60 Chevy changes lanes all by itself when you step on the brakes. Luckily it doesn't have very good brakes.

Constructor/Owner/Driver - Billy Beer Ford Futura

Parkwod60's Website

  • Registered: 2012-06-07
  • Posts: 90

Re: so... we bought our car, and a suspension question

I am very jealous that is way better looking than my daily driver... you would never find something that clean with 200,000+ miles on it in the rust belt!

25 Reply by lemonphil (edited by lemonphil 2012-06-12 05:12 AM)

  • From: Erie, CO
  • Registered: 2012-06-02
  • Posts: 35

Re: so... we bought our car, and a suspension question

dana_h_acdc wrote:

I am very jealous that is way better looking than my daily driver... you would never find something that clean with 200,000+ miles on it in the rust belt!

Very little rust, probably because of the steady stream of engine oil preventing it. Wish I had a carfax account, I'd be curious about where the car has been for 20 years