• RichVS
  • RichVS
  • LeMons 9th Circuit Justice
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  • From: Arvada CO
  • Registered: 2009-05-10
  • Posts: 436

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

Bayley wrote:

Germans are typically very compartmentalized in their engineering approach.  Everyone has their role to play / design and you don't dare step outside of those boundaries.  These engineers become very effective in their role, but unfortunately have little to no overlap thus resulting in overly complex engineering solutions.  The success of the design eventually falls on the weakest player in the team. 

Compare that to an American engineering approach where it's typical to have one or more "champions" that eventually spread themselves over the entire project.  The success of the American project has typically relied on how strong the champion(s) is and how far they get spread out during the project.  Remember; Henry Ford Sr. kidnapped a handful of engineers and brought them back to his airplane hanger (which is now the test track adjacent to Greenfield Village) for a couple weeks to develop his over head valve V8 engine.  While nowhere near that extreme, that is still the general feel for American engineering.

I could go on for days about the cultural differences between American and German engineering.  Both methods have their pros and cons.

Have you tried Aerospace?  (tongue nearly poking through cheek)

Rocket Surgery Racing
This isn't rocketsurgery.

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  • Type44
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  • Registered: 2011-07-23
  • Posts: 325

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

Jackasic wrote:

you miscreants need to step up to Mercedes.  The have found the trade off to be Money=design and longevity.  The cars ware way easy to work on and built rock solid, but you better get a second mortgage. I need new rockers and cams for the for the 560, ca-ching, 1,400 smack-a-roos right there.  IN PARTS ALONE.


People monkey with the rear main seal on these, overdo the RTV, clog the passages to the cam towers, and POOF, you wiped the lobes out. Drop the trans and see if I'm not right. There will be a huge amount of orange RTV around the RMS holder at rear of the block, and it's going to eat your new cams too. Solution: Sort the oil-starving issue out then buy a complete set of cams/rockers from a motor that has not had this happen to it. New is not necessary. That, and Febi rocker arms are preferred over stock; they are softer than the cams. When noise occurs, replace rocker at that lobe. An OEM rocker will flatten the cam but a Febi will wear first. Don't ask how I know about this M116/M117 trait...

Technical support for Team Audi Style Racing '82 Audi Coupe #820 BW '10 Sears '11 twice Reno '11...
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OMG Racing '94 Benz S500 #140 Chuckwalla '12 Sears Pointless '13...both of them.
Class C driver of a Class B car
  • From: Oregon
  • Registered: 2011-06-27
  • Posts: 339

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

OK so 2 things . . .
1.  The Tetanus 944 ran ALL 24 hours at ECR this weekend!!!!  and except for the tooth shattering warped rotors was a wicked fun car to drive.  Rumor has it that CrazyMike even passed Pulp Friction while driving it.
2. Our Mercedes racer has been very reluctant, but once you pull out the 135 lbs of extra wire and the 1000 lbs of luxury, it's really quite nimble (ish).

Putting the "dirty" in Dirty Little Freaks Racing
~stalk us on facebook
  • Registered: 2010-08-09
  • Posts: 1,432

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

Judge Phil wrote:

German car manufacturers believe that only qualified mechanics with proper credentials should work on their cars, so they don't bother making them easy to fix (see: all-gray wiring harness in Porsche 928). Detroit manufacturers know that most car repairs are done by dudes armed with a suitcase of Milwaukee's Best and a big rock, and they design accordingly.

German designers - yeah...
So much so that the Haynes often says such things as "due to the overwhelming complexity and nature of this job, it is recommended that the average home-mechanic refer this procedure to a trained professional" or "this part has had numerous design changes over the production of this vehicle - call your local service agent for the current torque specifications" and the gem of "Installation is the reverse of removal" (So sayeth the book - so sayeth we all)

My personal observations - after being stuck with life-as-a-beetle expert (I'm not)
- time to change a beetle engine? 15-45 minutes, depending on how many people help
- time to rebuild a beetle engine? After five of them I'm down to 30 hours of labor - plus incidental shop labor like crank-grinding and align-boring et al.

  • From: Doin' Crime in 21229
  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 2,119

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

Jackasic wrote:

you miscreants need to step up to Mercedes.  The have found the trade off to be Money=design and longevity.  The cars ware way easy to work on and built rock solid, but you better get a second mortgage. I need new rockers and cams for the for the 560, ca-ching, 1,400 smack-a-roos right there.  IN PARTS ALONE.

If the 4.5 ever blows up in my 450SL, I'm yanking it and dropping in a 472 Caddy motor.  More power and better fuel economy.  Of course, I'll have to rebadge the car as a 770SL. 

We drove the 450 to Virginia and back this weekend, about 900 miles round trip. Averaged 12-13mpg highway, except for one inexplicable tank of 18mpg.  And that's all on premium gas. 

The 450 does leak from the rear main seal.  About a half quart between oil changes.  Not worth fixing.  I have a piece of plywood I park over in the garage.  I just change the plywood every few months.

We affirm that the world's magnificence has been enriched by a new beauty: the beauty of speed. A racing car whose hood is adorned with great pipes, like serpents of an explosive breath- a roaring automobile that seems to run on machine-gun fire is more beautiful than the victory of Samothrace.  --Filippo Marinetti

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  • From: Elburn, IL
  • Registered: 2010-12-16
  • Posts: 2,395

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

mechimike wrote:

We drove the 450 to Virginia and back this weekend, about 900 miles round trip. Averaged 12-13mpg highway, except for one inexplicable tank of 18mpg.

Sounds like the department of weights and measures needs to stop by that little establishment...

A&D: 2011 Autobahn, 2012 Gingerman, 2012 Road America, 2012 Autobahn II
Building a car for the second half of 2013 under the auspices of:
Sir Jackie Stewart's Coin Purse Racing
http://www.facebook.com/#!/SirJackieSte … urseRacing
  • From: Hayward, CA
  • Registered: 2010-03-23
  • Posts: 992

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

mechimike wrote:

[ I just change the plywood every few months.

and use the old piece to start the barbeque?

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?Everyone who has ever built anywhere a 'new heaven' first found the power thereto in his own hell- Frederick Nietzsche

33 Reply by FJ40Jim (edited by FJ40Jim 2012-05-29 09:11 PM)

  • FJ40Jim
  • FJ40Jim
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  • From: Lancaster OH
  • Registered: 2009-05-02
  • Posts: 1,093

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

If we all accept that the 924 is the WPE (Worst Porsche Evar), would it be OK if we swap in the uber-reliable Audi 5 cyl (you in the back, stop snickering) in place of the 4cyl in our free 924?

Jim C.
Muttonheads!, nee Focke-eWe190 81-85-86-87-95-97 GTI
People wonder why I'm obsessed with cars.  I wonder why they are not.
08TMS45/52.09NL78/122.10GM16/51.10SP17/86.10NL3/13.11SP16/102.11NL28/74.12SP20/117.12VIR25/108.12NL12/47.13GM41/68

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  • Registered: 2012-05-27
  • Posts: 4

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

As someone who has had two main car focuses over the years, Porsches (356, 930, 911) and AMCs (Gremlin, Javelin, AMX, Ambassador, Concord, and maybe a few others I can't / don't want to remember).  I have found there to be almost no difference in reliability between the two companies.  Ok, maybe I have blown up a few more Porsche engines, but the AMC's have always been terribly allergic to any sort of bend in the road.  Hmm, I wonder if putting a Porsche engine in an AMC would be the perfect solution.  Then I would be unreliable and unable to turn...

  • From: Gilbertsville, PA
  • Registered: 2009-12-22
  • Posts: 1,838

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

rambling_along wrote:

As someone who has had two main car focuses over the years, Porsches (356, 930, 911) and AMCs (Gremlin, Javelin, AMX, Ambassador, Concord, and maybe a few others I can't / don't want to remember).  I have found there to be almost no difference in reliability between the two companies.  Ok, maybe I have blown up a few more Porsche engines, but the AMC's have always been terribly allergic to any sort of bend in the road.  Hmm, I wonder if putting a Porsche engine in an AMC would be the perfect solution.  Then I would be unreliable and unable to turn...


win win!

Former Flyin Turd Race Team Captain  Now Silent But Deadly Racing Dictator for life!
Ricky Bobby's Laughing Clown Malt Liquor Thunderbird Turbo Coupe'- 21st @ Capitol Offense 2010, 17th @ DTW Bull Oil 2010
2011-Up in flames, Real Hoopties, off the wall, Capitol Offense 2011 in a clapped out 510, 18/84 @ VIR 24 505 Team America Mustang
2012-????  Real Hoopties, Capitol Offense, VIR 24
  • Type44
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  • From: Phoenix, AZ
  • Registered: 2011-07-23
  • Posts: 325

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

rambling_along wrote:

As someone who has had two main car focuses over the years, Porsches (356, 930, 911) and AMCs (Gremlin, Javelin, AMX, Ambassador, Concord, and maybe a few others I can't / don't want to remember).  I have found there to be almost no difference in reliability between the two companies.  Ok, maybe I have blown up a few more Porsche engines, but the AMC's have always been terribly allergic to any sort of bend in the road.  Hmm, I wonder if putting a Porsche engine in an AMC would be the perfect solution.  Then I would be unreliable and unable to turn...

But the factory DID this!!!

The 2 liter Gremlin with the 924 motor, circa 1977. It exists:

http://www.allpar.com/forums/topic/1407 … ohc-4-cyl/

Most lemony lemon ever???

Technical support for Team Audi Style Racing '82 Audi Coupe #820 BW '10 Sears '11 twice Reno '11...
IOE Winner... Super Snipe- Team Tinworm BW '12!!!
OMG Racing '94 Benz S500 #140 Chuckwalla '12 Sears Pointless '13...both of them.
Class C driver of a Class B car
  • From: Van Nuys, CA
  • Registered: 2011-02-11
  • Posts: 2,556

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

Type44 wrote:
rambling_along wrote:

As someone who has had two main car focuses over the years, Porsches (356, 930, 911) and AMCs (Gremlin, Javelin, AMX, Ambassador, Concord, and maybe a few others I can't / don't want to remember).  I have found there to be almost no difference in reliability between the two companies.  Ok, maybe I have blown up a few more Porsche engines, but the AMC's have always been terribly allergic to any sort of bend in the road.  Hmm, I wonder if putting a Porsche engine in an AMC would be the perfect solution.  Then I would be unreliable and unable to turn...

But the factory DID this!!!

The 2 liter Gremlin with the 924 motor, circa 1977. It exists:

http://www.allpar.com/forums/topic/1407 … ohc-4-cyl/

Most lemony lemon ever???

Yes, and an AMC "Spirit" with the Audi/Porsche motor and a Gulf Oil paint job would redeem that theme from its overuse, I think. Or, how about a 924 team does the Wayne's World Pacer theme, (which also had the Audi engine as an option)?

Constructor/Owner/Driver - Billy Beer Ford Futura

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  • Type44
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  • Registered: 2011-07-23
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Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

The Pacer got the 2 liter?? Wasn't aware of that option. I always thought that they went better with 401 power...

Technical support for Team Audi Style Racing '82 Audi Coupe #820 BW '10 Sears '11 twice Reno '11...
IOE Winner... Super Snipe- Team Tinworm BW '12!!!
OMG Racing '94 Benz S500 #140 Chuckwalla '12 Sears Pointless '13...both of them.
Class C driver of a Class B car
  • From: Golden, CO
  • Registered: 2009-05-02
  • Posts: 916

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

I'm surprised none of the 924/44 teams have painted their car like Richard Hammond's Top Gear Cheap Porsche Challenge 924(which looks somewhat Mirthmobile-ish).

http://www.imcdb.org/i033762.jpg

Team Owner - Blue Flag Special
1978 AMC Pacer
BFE GP '12 - IOE
  • From: Elburn, IL
  • Registered: 2010-12-16
  • Posts: 2,395

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

They're still making Top Gear over there?

I kid, I kid...

A&D: 2011 Autobahn, 2012 Gingerman, 2012 Road America, 2012 Autobahn II
Building a car for the second half of 2013 under the auspices of:
Sir Jackie Stewart's Coin Purse Racing
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  • From: Rockville, MD
  • Registered: 2010-12-15
  • Posts: 695

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

Our 924 Turbo build has been going on for the past several months. So far, it's still not starting.

I think by now the team realized that turbo = fast, but also turbo = sit-by-the-side-of-the-track-and-wrench-all-day, so they kinda cooled down their excitement.

I just hope it'll have enough small-time breakdowns in the first race that we don't blow it up outright.

Our secret weapon is that the car will (supposedly) run on Megasquirt using EDIS ignition, meaning that every single porsche part in the fueling and ignition department came from another manufacturer. Right now we have bits from Mercedes, Subaru, Ford, GM, Chrysler, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Toyota, VW/Audi (duh), and Saab (don't ask).

As long as we use enough JB-weld, it oughtta hold, right?...

K Car Stalker
  • From: Central Joisy
  • Registered: 2009-10-10
  • Posts: 193

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

There's no way in history that will ever fail...

  • From: Saratoga, CA
  • Registered: 2011-10-11
  • Posts: 80

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

firegremlin wrote:

Our 924 Turbo build has been going on for the past several months. So far, it's still not starting.

Save your time. We have a 924 Turbo sitting in our team captain's backyard after running just a few races. Never got the thing to run more than three hours before blowing a motor (Although MS is probably a great idea), the handling is nothing compared to a 944, and besides - the judges hated it. A legitimate $500 car rebuilt with junkyard parts that never got less than 200 penalty laps.

It's a factory Porsche turbo, they said. Consider yourself warned.

Team OLD Farts
1987 Porsche 924 "Pac-Man"
1987 Audi 4000 "Ghost"

44 Reply by Buzz Killington (edited by Buzz Killington 2012-06-25 12:40 PM)

  • From: Phillies-delphia
  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 1,263

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

Racin_G73 wrote:
mechimike wrote:

We drove the 450 to Virginia and back this weekend, about 900 miles round trip. Averaged 12-13mpg highway, except for one inexplicable tank of 18mpg.

Sounds like the department of weights and measures needs to stop by that little establishment...

Sounds like they'd welcome the visit!

"Apparently we've been dispensing a gallon and a half but only charging for a gallon."
"I guess that's why we're not making any money."

mechimike wrote:

On German cars in general, I've found that any serviceability is purely incidental.

If they factored serviceability into the design, that would be essentially an admission that at some point, a component will fail.  That means it is not perfectly engineered.  Since that cannot be the case, the conclusion is obvious that repairs will not be needed.  In the event repairs are needed, the only possible cause is owner error or abuse, and therefore the appropriate punishment for the shoddy treatment of the engineers' creation will be dispensed at the time the repair is made.

mike - Schumacher Taxi Service
12+-time loser
"Winner" - We Got Screwed, NJMP '11

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  • From: Elburn, IL
  • Registered: 2010-12-16
  • Posts: 2,395

Re: Braving the wrath of the Porsche 944 Jihad

Buzz Killington wrote:
mechimike wrote:

On German cars in general, I've found that any serviceability is purely incidental.

If they factored serviceability into the design, that would be essentially an admission that at some point, a component will fail.  That means it is not perfectly engineered.  Since that cannot be the case, the conclusion is obvious that repairs will not be needed.  In the event repairs are needed, the only possible cause is owner error or abuse, and therefore the appropriate punishment for the shoddy treatment of sucthe engineers' creation will be dispensed at the time the repair is made.

It's beautiful!

What are you doing, Dave?

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A&D: 2011 Autobahn, 2012 Gingerman, 2012 Road America, 2012 Autobahn II
Building a car for the second half of 2013 under the auspices of:
Sir Jackie Stewart's Coin Purse Racing
http://www.facebook.com/#!/SirJackieSte … urseRacing