1 (edited by jw33 2014-08-25 05:15 PM)

Topic: Changing the oil in struts (79-04 Mustang)

Today I decided to try changing the oil inside of the front struts for something else and added a shrader valve so that the oil can be changing fairly easily to something else if we want to experiment with different viscosities. These struts were bought at Autozone in 2007 and there are about ten races on them. I decided I would drill/tap the bottom of the strut since there is room down there when they are mounted on the car and the metal is thick enough to tap/thread.

http://i58.tinypic.com/29couuv.jpg

I used a pair of shrader valves from Napa. They are 1/8 NPT made of brass and cost about $2.50 each.

http://i59.tinypic.com/bih5v.jpg

Drilling the first one made me a little nervous because these are gas charged and I had no idea how much pressure there would be inside. I drilled a pretty small hole first and it wasn't that bad. I then went up to the right size drill bit for the 1/8 NPT tap while using a shop vacuum to catch the shavings. Tapping the hole was mostly straight forward except that you need to use a bottom or finishing tap because you can only go down about a half an inch into the hole. I ended up cutting the tip of my tapered tap off to get the job done.

http://i58.tinypic.com/1fcmpt.jpg

I packed the tap with grease to catch as much of the metal shavings as possible.

http://i61.tinypic.com/2rpcqj6.jpg

And now drilled, tapped, and ready to drain. I waited to drain them at this point to flush out as much crap from the drilling/tapping.

http://i59.tinypic.com/okyhzl.jpg

Next I turn them over and start cycling the strut while catching the oil in a container. It is a pretty vile looking fluid, but it must work alright if they lasted as long as they did. It seems about as thick as cooking oil.

http://i57.tinypic.com/rrkryq.jpg

http://i59.tinypic.com/eu10so.jpg

I measured how much fluid came out and tried to put back in the same amount. I used some 15 motorcycle fork oil. You have to put it in pretty slowly, but eventually it will all fit.

http://i61.tinypic.com/vy12le.jpg


Finally I used thread sealant on the shrader valve threads and tightened it down. I charged the strut with about 40psi, but I do not know for sure how much pressure should be inside of there.

http://i58.tinypic.com/zivw5z.jpg

Now I have no idea if this will actually be an improvement over the way the struts were. I figure we can play with different oils and see if it actually makes a difference. Just judging by hand in the garage the struts actually feel softer? That doesn't seem possibly because the new oil was definitely thicker that what came out, but I'm pretty sure they are softer now. Everything I have read about this subject suggested that you should start out with the lower number oils first so you don't damage the seals. And now you know....

http://i58.tinypic.com/2n06git.jpg

Shake and Bake
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Re: Changing the oil in struts (79-04 Mustang)

As you implied, this is common for motorcycles.  The fork oil is your right direction but experimentation is the key.

Until you have purged all the air from the passages, the real "feel" of the cartridge wil not be known.  At least if they act like motorcycle forks.

Re: Changing the oil in struts (79-04 Mustang)

Super cool, very interested to see some results!

-Nathan - Team Captain, Priority Fail Racing
1997 Golf GTI VR6 Mid Engine

Re: Changing the oil in struts (79-04 Mustang)

15w through factory valving will probably be pretty stiff, the factory fill is often around 5w (that shears down to w - not much). Sounds perfect!
You might want to try some more pressure, though it sounds like you've got a nice emulsion shock there as it is...

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Re: Changing the oil in struts (79-04 Mustang)

X-args wrote:

15w through factory valving will probably be pretty stiff, the factory fill is often around 5w (that shears down to w - not much). Sounds perfect!
You might want to try some more pressure, though it sounds like you've got a nice emulsion shock there as it is...

If I'm not mistaken, you have a motorcycle shop? Any other tips/tricks for this you can share with us?

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Re: Changing the oil in struts (79-04 Mustang)

Maybe fill with nitrogen?   VS standard air so no water vapor goes in?

Re: Changing the oil in struts (79-04 Mustang)

Wow, that is pretty nifty. As someone mentioned, you may have some air entrained in that oil, making it seem softer. Try relieving the gas pressure and compressing the shock, then drawing the fluid into the shock by extending it, like a syringe.

Team Fairlylame
HumidiTT '14 IOE Winner

8 (edited by Bayley 2014-08-26 01:56 PM)

Re: Changing the oil in struts (79-04 Mustang)

I tried this on a pair of old Chrysler struts but screwed up by accidentally drilling past the housing and into the piston.

Be careful when drilling.  There isn't much room in there to work with.

The Pentastar whisperer

Re: Changing the oil in struts (79-04 Mustang)

I never did this with sealed struts but many older cars came with struts that could be taken apart by removing the gland nut on the top of the strut.
I did this with struts back when I was racing Capris. The German ones. We would take the strut apart and change to a heavier oil.
On guy I know who did this went to heavy with 50W oil and blew out the seals on the first lap of testing.
15t to 20W is about as heavy as you should go. Adding nitrogen is best at about 100 psi.

Re: Changing the oil in struts (79-04 Mustang)

I tried to do some of my own shock tuning with the Jag.  I figured a big heavy car that's soft in the rear, we'll take the Tool Time Tim approach and put the heaviest stuff we can find in there.  I bought the fancy smancy Rock Oil SVI 25wt "suspension fluid" and bought a couple junkyard XJ shocks (OEM is Billy Stein), drilled em out and drained the oil.  I measured what came out and filled them back up with my new "suspension fluid".  Welded up the hole (not easy for me) and threw em on.  Then promptly threw my back out driving the thing.  Fortunately, the jackhammers attached to my seatback soon blew out their seals and the original shocks went back on.  So yeah, don't go crazy with the oil weight.  Fork oil is non foaming so you want to use that or "suspension fluid" if you have a bigger checkbook.  When you go looking for the stuff, you'll come across a million ads for RC cars where they sell it by the thimbleful.

Lesson here is, go easy on the oil weight.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
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Re: Changing the oil in struts (79-04 Mustang)

Can you guys help me understand how this makes the dampener "stiffer" aka resist the spring more?

This explanation basically states that the there's a piston inside with holes in it and valves to restrict oil flow. As the shock is compressed, oil slowly moves from one side of the piston through the holes into the other.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/Mot … .aspx?pg=1

I understand that moving to a heavier weight oil will make it take more time for oil to flow through the piston head but this article goes on to say that heat generated from lots of shock movement will cause bubbles to form and dampening will be reduced. Apparently, the solution is to add high pressure nitrogen to shock to minimize the bubble formation.

Q: Therefore, just adding a heavier oil without replacing the gas won't increase the dampening capabilities, right?

-g

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Ceci n'est pas une Citron Thunderbird ("This is not a lemon" but a 1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing + engine mounted frito maker)
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12 (edited by DelinquentRacer 2014-08-29 07:12 AM)

Re: Changing the oil in struts (79-04 Mustang)

gunn wrote:

Q: Therefore, just adding a heavier oil without replacing the gas won't increase the dampening capabilities, right?
-g

Aerated oil behaves as though it is a lower viscosity.
Many well designed shocks ran without pressurized gas in them old-timey days.
They used larger orifices and higher viscosity oil, to lessen the heat build-up.
The heat generated by the oil flow causes the oil to "thin" just like hot engine oil flows easier than cold.
The "thin" oil then reduces dampening, causing the piston to move more violently through the oil.
This causes foaming of the oil, further "thinning" the oil.
Gas pressure prevents the oil from foaming by keeping a moveable piston, or something similar, pressed tight to the liquid oil.
If you just throw 100 psi of any gas on top of a volume of oil, it will still foam, but at a later point due to the compression of the bubbles. Think spongy brake pedal with air in the brake fluid. Pump the brakes and they firm-up because you compressed the air into a smaller, high-pressure bubble.

Heavier oil will increase the damping.

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13 (edited by therood 2014-08-26 08:09 PM)

Re: Changing the oil in struts (79-04 Mustang)

An East Coast Chump builder does this with his car, which wins races and runs ridiculously fast lap times. After some experimentation, he found that cheap 10W40 worked best for that particular application (not a Fox Body).

YMMV.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

Re: Changing the oil in struts (79-04 Mustang)

If you are going to go with engine oil, add some ATF to it. ATF has the sorts of anti-foam chemicals you want in a shock. When building old bike I typically play with different mixtures of straight 30wt and ATF, until I find a viscosity I like. If you can't get enough damping with 30wt and ATF, move to 40 or 50 and ATF.

Constructor/Owner/Driver - Billy Beer Ford Futura

Re: Changing the oil in struts (79-04 Mustang)

Not to bust balls here...(or maybe the opposite)

dampening is the act of making something damp.
damping is what a shock does.

-Nathan - Team Captain, Priority Fail Racing
1997 Golf GTI VR6 Mid Engine

Re: Changing the oil in struts (79-04 Mustang)

the shaolin wrote:

Not to bust balls here...(or maybe the opposite)

dampening is the act of making something damp.
damping is what a shock does.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-936xdcQRtts/VADBiBAf8NI/AAAAAAAAAJ0/k0D46TvoG9U/w550-h400-no/download.jpg

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Re: Changing the oil in struts (79-04 Mustang)

the shaolin wrote:

Not to bust balls here...(or maybe the opposite)

dampening is the act of making something damp.
damping is what a shock does.

I stand corrected.
You could argue though that using oil that's too heavy will blow the seals and increase dampening effect of the shock... on your garage floor.
-g

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Ceci n'est pas une Citron Thunderbird ("This is not a lemon" but a 1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing + engine mounted frito maker)
2017 Sears Pointless Organizer’s Choice
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Re: Changing the oil in struts (79-04 Mustang)

It also depends on what kind of valving it has.
The problem with holes is that the damping effect is 'velocity squared' so twice the shock shaft speed=FOUR times the resistance.

Motorcycle suspension has evolved away from this setup, using the 'Decarbon' bending-washer tech which is brilliant but more expensive than some holes and springs/balls.

As Cheseroo noted above it's easy to make the damper basically immobile with too-heavy oil.

Without a separating piston/diaphragm to divide the oil and gas you end up with an emulsion shock anyway.
I don't think Ford was hip enough to use a monotube gas strut, (separator piston) but I don't know for sure.

Don't go nuts with the oil weight.

Of course back in the day when I was racing YSR50 minibikes, we ended up using 50 or 60 weight fork oil - but it took that much resistance to control the insanely heavy springs we had to install with a 200lb rider aboard...

http://www.racetech.com/page/title/G3S%20Shock%20Types

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2/25/24

19 (edited by jw33 2014-08-29 07:01 PM)

Re: Changing the oil in struts (79-04 Mustang)

I cut open another strut and this is what it looks like inside. I came across more info on the gas bag, but this one does not have one???

http://i58.tinypic.com/260y83c.jpg

http://i58.tinypic.com/nez0ao.jpg

http://i57.tinypic.com/66gpzp.jpg

http://i57.tinypic.com/23ocie.jpg

And by the way, the oil that is inside of these rivals gear oil for skankness.

http://www.justmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/bf7.gif
I also have no idea what anyof this stuff does...

Shake and Bake
America, birthplace of the missionary position. You're welcome...

Re: Changing the oil in struts (79-04 Mustang)

This weekend we had a chance to compare these struts back to back with a brand new pair of Monroe 801803 ($32ea from rockauto). On Sunday we took the car to Eagles Canyon Raceway where one of our teammates is a member. The weather was perfect and the car had a fresh set of tires. We sent him out first to do 12-15 laps with the modified struts on the front of the car. The car appeared to be very stiff looking from where we were watching from and did not appear to nose over at all under braking. This guy hasn't driven this car in it's current configuration, but after the getting a better feel of the brakes he came back to the paddock so we could switch out the struts. That was the only change that we made to the car before we sent him back out again with the brand new Monroes. After another 12-15 laps he came back in and immediately said the car felt much much better. Lap times were basically the same as far as we could measure and really couldn't be used to for anything because he was not very familiar with the car on the first outing. As far as we are concerned we will be leaving the Monroes on the car unless we decide to bite the bullet and get a real performance strut/spring.

Below is a video we made using a tiny RC camera mounted under the hood facing out to the passenger side spindle area. No data, just a cool 2min video of the struts doing their job on the track. The suspension moves around a lot!

7yr old Autozone struts with an oil change.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8JRTtUSSMo

Monroe 801803
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Vxt35pmn3k


This is the camera we used.
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor … _CMOS.html

Shake and Bake
America, birthplace of the missionary position. You're welcome...

Re: Changing the oil in struts (79-04 Mustang)

Parkwod60 wrote:

If you are going to go with engine oil, add some ATF to it. ATF has the sorts of anti-foam chemicals you want in a shock. When building old bike I typically play with different mixtures of straight 30wt and ATF, until I find a viscosity I like. If you can't get enough damping with 30wt and ATF, move to 40 or 50 and ATF.

Because Ferkel the Nein-11 was a roll-over victim, one of the front struts was bent. We replaced the insert and refilled both sides with MaxLife ATF. Totally legit.

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Re: Changing the oil in struts (79-04 Mustang)

I would get 150psi in there.