Inside hugging and "slice and dice" (Page 1 of 2)

Here's my thoughts:

Having two cars that are similar in lap times, but drastically different in regards to acceleration vs cornering ability, I've seen this first hand both ways. Approaching a slower car, and attempting to pass, only to get blocked. Most of the time, it's not so much blocking as running their own race without regard to approaching cars coming up in the mirrors, but there is certainly true blocking going on as well.  In my horsepower car, you casually follow them to the nearest straight and blow by them. In my momentum car, you have to try and get around them, many times pulling up next to them going into a corner, and generally taking the inside all the way around.

How does Jay&co feel about this practice? I got the privilege of hearing it first hand after one of my drivers was plowed into while performing the "hold the inside" technique. Both cars come in, my driver tells me and staff what he did, and the other driver is screaming "he took my line!" Jay promptly and loudly told him that there are no lines, he doesnt own a line, and he is responsible for driving his car around the race track without contact. I dont recall if he was allowed back on track after a penalty or if they switched drivers and went out, since he wanted to stay and argue while we were sent back out. 

The moral of the story? Do what I do: let the faster cars go on by, and save yourself from being in a position to force a not so intelligent move on their end. There's plenty of cars our there, if you want to dice it up with one that is similar to yours, do it, but dont hold up a car that is drastically faster than you. You may cost them nickles.

It is not even always a "slower car" or "momentum car" that chooses to hug the inside.  Sometimes it is the side closest to me when I do not feel like duking it out with the 5 cars that are faster than me and the one that is slower than me but driving like an asshat entering a corner at the same time.  This happens to me a lot so I have just taken the position that: I wave everyone to side I want them to go, check the mirror and grab the "anti-line" be it the extreme outside or the extreme inside...whatever is closer.

The technique has actually gotten me past the car marginally slower than me that was playing all kinds of blocking games (ahem, white V6 Camaro with no theme) and even past some cars that are slightly faster than I am while they are jockeying for position with the other four guys...and lose.

To go back to your original question, I think you're asking about whether a "dive bomb" is a bad move or not?

Or if not a dive bomb, then defensive driving through the corner.

In my experience, with a low horsepower car, the move you describe is often one of the best ways to pass cars - if done properly.  You utilize your wonderful brakes to move inside early (communicating your intention to the car you're passing) and braking late.  You are then alongside the car you are passing before they would start to swing over to the apex.  And you are off the brake pedal, as well.  But you are also ready to stomp on the brakes if the driver on your outside is oblivious to your presence.

In the other situation, if you are the car being passed and you are diving to the inside early, you should stay to the inside on exit and let the faster car that's getting larger in your mirror sweep out to the outside of the track and complete the pass.  There's no sense in blocking during an endurance race.

I don't even mention the extreme slow vs. fast car paradigm because that's a whole 'nother can of worms.  Some teams preach to stay to one side or the other.  Some teams preach to stay outside all the time.  Some teams preach to stay inside all the time.  My approach is more to run my race, run my line, but communicate early and often with my hands and by positioning my vehicle to show my intent to the driver coming up from behind.

Ahh, SoFla in the fall... Or at least I've been told it's fall. The thermometer says different. And I remember the pic of your view, bro. Rubbing it in is not nice. Actually, I was in Santa Clara last week, by Levi Stadium. Perfect running weather. Lake Worth was easy to leave, I'm sure.

I understand your point, rod. The number of cars makes strictly adhering to "classic" lines pretty difficult sometimes, but not impossible, IMO. But that also reflects what I've seen at CMP these past 3 years. These were ~110 car races over a little less than 2.5 miles. I think I could have phrased my question a bit better but the responses are educational. I would have to take slight exception to the notion that being overtaken by a dive bomb reflects the overtaken driver's failure to protect his/her line. Rather, blocking to move in front of the apex actually represents a distinct change in their line, not protecting their original. And cutting off a charging bomber is a recipe for disaster if they aren't prepared for the block.

I suppose this is all academic but I am very interested in other opinions. What I've read so far, though, leads me to believe that the placement of your car is up to you and your interests since you are ultimately solely responsible for your own behavior. Personally, I have accommodated the slice and dice, bobbing and weaving passing moves of other cars because that type of driving I find unpredictable and I just prefer to steer clear of them, position be damned. I wasn't sure how etiquette would apply, taking safety concerns equally across all perspectives. Thanks for the input. I have taken the inside line myself when it is clearly being given to me and I try to return the favor based on the circumstances, always prioritizing the drivers' safety first.

My goal is to help get myself AND the passing car through the corner as fast as possible.  So, I time my corner entry, exit, pointby as best as I can so the passing car can pass me before or after the corner.   I rarely try to allow passing or pass someone in the middle of a corner.  If I have to pass someone in a corner, it is either the last hour of the race, or the car I'm passing is not driving by my thinking.

i just posted this in the racing tips and tricks:

Having the 105th slowest car at CMP and not having been there at all on saturday, I had a steep learning curve Sunday morning.

saturday, Tsoggy got hit very hard by the Gold Olds 88, who apparently forgot what the pedal on the left was used for at the end of the front straight.  He managed to push the rear corner of the squire in about 6".  After watching a bunch of much faster cars dice it up and try to outbrake each other going into the same turn, i made the conscious decision to hold the inside all the way through the turns at the end of the straights.  this way, the fast cars could whiff into the grass, rather than use my car as extra braking. i tried to be consistent in the use of this strategy, but it's sometimes difficult to process what's going on ahead and behind, while telling the guys behind where I'd like them to go with pointbys.  If there was clear track, I'd try to run regular racing lines.

I hope this clears up why the Squire was doing what it was doing the first 2 hours and the last 90 minutes of Sundays session.  Not sure about strategies with my other drivers, as i wasn't around day 1.

The cars that are slower are the most predictable on the track, typically. Their adherence to a line-be it inside or out-is almost always a given and very easy to negotiate. The Squire and the Idle Clatter cars are just two examples of this attitude of "predictable, safe, fun." You guys drive this way just as much to protect yourselves as to not impede anyone else and it's appreciated by everyone on the track.

The earlier comment about how this is all supposed to be for fun is what resonated the most, tho. Rod reiterated "keeping it light" and that is the I Ching of this series. A universal definition of this isn't realistic so the inevitable answer to my original question is the ineffable "don't be a d!ck" and just run your race the way you see fit.

I will hold the inside line unless I am absolutely certain the car on the outside has not tried to race me thru the turn and I can drift out without slamming the door on them.

Conversely, when I am getting passed I do my best to let them by before turn entry so that they have the entire corner to use and we can both go thru the corner more quickly.  It is not often that I get a point-by (at least in my car), but it is really frustrating when they give you a point-by and then still race you into the corner.  That just slows everyone down.

Of course all of this is in light traffic.

Lemons driving has a lot of challenges which makes lines impractical.  We have to many cars on the track, to much a difference in speeds of the cars, a huge variant in driver skills and experience.  From what I've seen what people do in the turns depends most on what is going on in that moment.

There are times when there are 2 lines of cars going through multiple turns,  there is times when you use a slower car as a pick, there are times that everyone uses the proper lines and there times when we are going 3 wide in a turn that professionals go single file.   This is why Jay says there is no racing line.  A big part of racing Lemons is how negotiating traffic and learning how to do it well.

What I've seen is that dive bombers tend to have Karma catch up with them and I would hope in time they will realize that doing that is costing them track time and sometimes the win.  Some people the light comes on, sometimes it never does though.

That's the typical moral of a DJ story. But in this case, I actually agree with him. Even a blind squirrel is right twice a day, or something like that.

These are both "Words to Live By" in Lemons racing. I drive one of the faster cars at CMP but I almost never poke the nose of my car inside without knowing that I have more braking in reserve and can avoid a car that turns into the apex at the last second. If I do go inside I make sure that I can hold the inside line all the way through the corner to let the outside car exit cleanly beside me.