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Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

not to take away from the drivers skills but a listing of various e30 0-60 times shows some models weren't all that different.

http://lucypages.com/bmw-3-series-e30-s … -60-times/

Although I guess that is more closer to 30 years than 20.g

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Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

This would be a good topic...  "New cheap -vs- old not so cheap?"

I will say, if you put me in an E30 or whatever, I would kill the Aveo.  On the video, you heard my lap times.  I was 15 seconds slower than much of the field and I am the hot-shoe of our effort.  All things being equal, the BMW's are quite the best choice for Lemons!

Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

drKorf wrote:
BoB wrote:

I think this will show the new paradox of Lemons.  Modern econobox crap that no one wants is as fast or faster than a lot of cars that were performance cars 20 years ago.

The Aveo has a 0-60 time of about 9.5 seconds. I don't think that was considered 'performance' 20 years ago. The reason an Aveo is passing BMWs has nothing to do with the cars and everything to do with the drivers.

9.5 seconds is actually very comparable to the acceleration of a mid to late 80's 325e.  9.5 sec 0-60 was performance car territory back in the 80's.

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Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

Since when is E30 performance car?
M3 yes, e30 no.
Performance cars back than were in 5 sec range.

Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

Renegade wrote:

This would be a good topic...  "New cheap -vs- old not so cheap?"

I will say, if you put me in an E30 or whatever, I would kill the Aveo.  On the video, you heard my lap times.  I was 15 seconds slower than much of the field and I am the hot-shoe of our effort.  All things being equal, the BMW's are quite the best choice for Lemons!

I'm guessing new economy isn't as good as old luxury. I had a 1986 325es until recently. It had great manners on track and got 30 mpg on the way home. The economy engine in the 'e' is not very desirable, so it's inexpensive to replace. I think that makes a 325e the ideal Lemons car. Even though the 'e' model is outclassed by nearly every A class car on paper, it's easy to drive hard. Here's a 3:55 lap on the 5 mile at Thunderhill. Somehow I don't think an Aveo can match that, even with Renegade piloting (but I'd love to see the video of him trying).

https://youtu.be/gWOVDdDGY2k

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Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

drKorf...  Nice driving!!!  As I mentioned in a previous post, the Aveo isn't as fast as many of the B-mers.  I am sure you or I could drive just about all of them faster than our little Chevy.  I just happened upon a point in the race where our little Daewon't sprung wings while the pilots of the B-mers were having tea!  Lol.

Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

The 325ES is quite capable, but it no longer is going to win class A if other competent teams show up to a race with E30 325is, E36s, newer generation civics, etc.  We've been running one for a while, and won a race at Road America, and we weren't in the top 5 for fastest lap times even with our hot-shoe driving.  It was really a perfect storm of good luck.   Having said that, i would certainly take it over an Aveo any day though.  smile

Nice driving btw!   You make it look smooth and easy.

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

Thanks, Lemon-aid!

Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

erich wrote:
Paulie Lugnuts wrote:

I wonder if the spindles are just to weak and flexing under a load. Perhaps "adapting" a Honda or VW spindle could be a permanent fix.

Whatever you do, don't use older VW spindles.  On the Flying Lumberjacks VW Fox we seem to burn up  around a bearing set/spindle a race.  Or maybe we're just bad at packing and preloading the bearings.

what are you torquing the axle nuts to?
because if it's less than "our biggest driver jumping on a 4 foot breaker bar" that's why you have grumpy knuckles

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Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

tSoG wrote:
erich wrote:
Paulie Lugnuts wrote:

I wonder if the spindles are just to weak and flexing under a load. Perhaps "adapting" a Honda or VW spindle could be a permanent fix.

Whatever you do, don't use older VW spindles.  On the Flying Lumberjacks VW Fox we seem to burn up  around a bearing set/spindle a race.  Or maybe we're just bad at packing and preloading the bearings.

what are you torquing the axle nuts to?
because if it's less than "our biggest driver jumping on a 4 foot breaker bar" that's why you have grumpy knuckles

Factory spec is 165 ft. lbs. and we have been religious about that AFTER we tried less AND more.  Both attempts lead to much quicker failures.

Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

BoB wrote:

I think this will show the new paradox of Lemons.  Modern econobox crap that no one wants is as fast or faster than a lot of cars that were performance cars 20 years ago.

LALALALA I can't hear you. My 15 year old 220hp BMW is the FASTEST THING EVER and is a MODERN SPORTS CAR.


drKorf wrote:

The reason an Aveo is passing BMWs has nothing to do with the cars and everything to do with the drivers.

Seeing guys like this makes me want to see what they would do in my car. Then I decided I'd rather not know just how bad they're going to destroy my times.

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Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

I have one of those fast types on our team (national champion... Blah.. Blah...).   At autobahn (1:44 lap) he is 3 secs faster than the above average driver.  5 secs faster than the average guy.  10-15 seconds faster than a new driver.

I always feel fast till he gets in the car... hmm

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

TeamLemon-aid wrote:

I have one of those fast types on our team (national champion... Blah.. Blah...).   At autobahn (1:44 lap) he is 3 secs faster than the above average driver.  5 secs faster than the average guy.  10-15 seconds faster than a new driver.

I always feel fast till he gets in the car... hmm

Geo?
That car is pretty fast, I spent my stint following it smile

Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

Yep. The Geo.  Fast car for sure.  Certainly... Umm... Interesting in the handling department.   So a guy like the OP would really shine in our beast. 

zadar wrote:
TeamLemon-aid wrote:

I have one of those fast types on our team (national champion... Blah.. Blah...).   At autobahn (1:44 lap) he is 3 secs faster than the above average driver.  5 secs faster than the average guy.  10-15 seconds faster than a new driver.

I always feel fast till he gets in the car... hmm

Geo?
That car is pretty fast, I spent my stint following it smile

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

Gentlemen...  I'm building a Miata Lemon's car with the stock 1.6L engine, stock brakes, stock body, stock exhaust, stock suspension, better radiator, oil cooler, and that's about it.  Car was wrapped around a pole in the front with frame damage as evidence, and looks like a dirt clod.  So, BS should be smooth.  What I want to know is, what class are the Miatas getting assigned to?  Thoughts?

Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

Class A ... Especially if it has a fuel cell.  At least for the first race.  If your team doesn't do so hot you may get bumped to B if the car is honestly stock and no fuel cell. 

We haven't seen too many fast Miata's in the Midwest.  Not sure why.  It may have something to do with the difficulty getting taller drivers situated safely.

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

Renegade wrote:
tSoG wrote:
erich wrote:

Whatever you do, don't use older VW spindles.  On the Flying Lumberjacks VW Fox we seem to burn up  around a bearing set/spindle a race.  Or maybe we're just bad at packing and preloading the bearings.

what are you torquing the axle nuts to?
because if it's less than "our biggest driver jumping on a 4 foot breaker bar" that's why you have grumpy knuckles

Factory spec is 165 ft. lbs. and we have been religious about that AFTER we tried less AND more.  Both attempts lead to much quicker failures.

165 ft. lbs is about equivalent to Tsog jumping on a 4 foot breaker bar.

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Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

tSoG wrote:
erich wrote:
Paulie Lugnuts wrote:

I wonder if the spindles are just to weak and flexing under a load. Perhaps "adapting" a Honda or VW spindle could be a permanent fix.

Whatever you do, don't use older VW spindles.  On the Flying Lumberjacks VW Fox we seem to burn up  around a bearing set/spindle a race.  Or maybe we're just bad at packing and preloading the bearings.

what are you torquing the axle nuts to?
because if it's less than "our biggest driver jumping on a 4 foot breaker bar" that's why you have grumpy knuckles

It's the rears we're having troubles with.
The Bentley manual is a worthless piece of drivel with no useful information.  The factory spec seems to be "Tighten the nut to 18ftlbs while spinning to seat the bearings.  Loosen nut, then re-tighten it so you can slide the washer under the nut with the tip of a screwdriver."  So it's random trial and error.  Give me a damn torque spec for the bearing preload VW.

44 (edited by stimpyvan 2015-08-10 08:53 AM)

Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

erich wrote:

It's the rears we're having troubles with.
The Bentley manual is a worthless piece of drivel with no useful information.  The factory spec seems to be "Tighten the nut to 18ftlbs while spinning to seat the bearings.  Loosen nut, then re-tighten it so you can slide the washer under the nut with the tip of a screwdriver."  So it's random trial and error.  Give me a damn torque spec for the bearing preload VW.

SKF wrote:

Tighten the hub nut gradually while turning the thrust washer with a screwdriver tip. Do not bend or pry with the screwdriver. Tighten the hub nut to the point where the washer cannot be turned and back off slightly. Install the locknut and cotter pin.

SKF Axle Bearing Torque Guide
Reference pages 24 & 34.

I think that most of the bearing manufacturers have published instructions for installing their bearings.  Not applicable to the rears on your Fox, but good info:

Timken Wheel Adjustment Procedure

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Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

Ok gents...and the very occasional lady...  New spindles, new hubs, new bearings, and a new team directive to keep the curb activity down to a minimum.  We are at Thunder Hill this weekend and got classed B-0 as we typically get.  If we save the car, and the black flag Gods don't play a part, another possible top 5 in class could be ours.  Soooo glad they took the worthless double hairpin section on the "dark side" of the track out this time.  If we can keep the momentum going, we are decently competitive.  Fingers crossed!!!

Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

That is some excellent driving, both at Buttonwillow and at Sears!  Driving the line and using every bit of track when on your own, setting up other cars for the pass well in advance, carrying momentum in nearly all circumstances, reading other drivers well, confidently and predictably moving through traffic in a way that is both assertive enough to get by yet respecting of other cars and allowing them to coexist in the corners such that the racing is clean and all parties can keep racing instead of getting banged up and visiting the judges.....overall, a textbook demonstration how even with an underpowered car, if you have the right driver you can do really well in Lemons.

With the lack of power/need to carry momentum, I think you are to a certain extent forced to make more of the somewhat riskier/trusting-of-the-other-driver mid-corner passes than most of the fast class A cars, which have enough power to take a somewhat more cautious and safer approach (except for those circumstances where the race is so close that you take that extra bit of risk to gain every bit of time you can).  The car looks very well set up...almost no body roll...so it has the precision needed to confidently make the mid-corner passes.  Are you sure those are just cut springs?  smile

Your team needs to get a faster car or significantly upgrade the current car and join the fun in class A!

Harry
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Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

I followed it a bit mid day saturday?  I think.  I dont think that was the same driver as in the video.  They werent bad, just a bit tentative like they didnt trust the car.  Double sets and such.

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Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

Harry...  Or should I say, "Mr. Cerveza"!

Thank you for the kind words.  When we grow up, we will be playing with the big boys in "A" and we'll be coming for you!  big_smile

Seriously, if we can take a Chevy Aveo (Deawon't) to a class B win, that would be just epic.  We don't have a fuel cell yet, we fuel through a stock filler, we maintain the stock Aveo equipment, and we keep getting pretty close.

We have three brands of drivers.  The gas saving, conservative types that can push the fuel gauge another 20 to 30 minutes, we have the HOT SHOE that get's tossed in at the end of the day (that's me), then we have the in-between driver that can play hard, but with a soft touch.

This last weekend was, quite frankly, a pisser.  Leading class B with our competition seconds behind but not gaining, we got a black flag for contact.  Sure, everyone has a story and nobody is guilty of anything.  However, nobody else was flagged for the "contact" and I have the video to prove it.  I hope to post it later today or tonight if my boss lets me (also me).  Haha.

May not have mattered anyway.  We lost ANOTHER wheel bearing 45 minutes before the checker on Sunday.  We were in 5th, two laps behind the leader.  That 2 laps was what we lost the day before for the bogus black flag.

Fairness to Lemon's, this is $500 crap can racing and some of the best fun I have ever had.  We are competitive which is part of the fun.  When we are handed a bogus black flag, it certainly takes the wind out of your sails...but does it?  I look back and I still had a friggin' blast.  I even took issue with Jay after my objection to the erroneous punishment...but I was stupid not to think that it wasn't him that saw the incident (or lack there of).  It was the flaggers.  So, even though I was not profane or confrontational with him, I do owe him an apology.  I am NON-EMOTIONAL behind the wheel and don't get red misted.  Outside of the car, I become analytical and cynical.  Less I forget, I am driving a truly $500 Daewoo and I need to shut the F^CK up and have fun!  LOL.

49 (edited by racerxr 2015-09-15 06:23 PM)

Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

With well over 100 cars on the track at any given time and 16+ hours of racing in a weekend, flagging a Lemons race accurately and fairly is impossible.  So, we learned to consider black flags as yet another seemingly random occurrence that you only have marginal control over.  It's been our experience that black flag karma evens out in the long run.  We've been black flagged for contact when another car backfired as it passed my driver mid-turn, and I've watched video from my car and seen my drivers accidentally pass under yellow and not get a flag.

We have a very similar situation as your team.  We have a 2700 lbs 110hp FWD car (300 lbs and 7 hp more than your car)  with stock tank and filler tube.  Our car begins to fuel starve after burning just 7-9 gallons of fuel.  We have one hot-shoe and 3 solid drivers.  The delta in lap times is something like 5-10 seconds.  The difference in session duration before fuel starve is 15 to 30 minutes depending on the track.  I've created a spreadsheet and analyzed a few of our races and it turns out that the extra session time gained by the more conservative drivers usually saves us a fuel stop per day and more than makes up for the lap time delta.  It turns out endurance racing is a resource management game, not a foot race.

Fuel isn't the only thing we can manage with lap times.  Other things like tires, brakes, wheel bearings, and even black flags can be mitigated with a little more conservative driving.  With all the cars on the track, flaggers rarely have a perfect view of on-track incidents.  So it often comes down to perception.  A car that is often passing deep in braking zones or mid-turn is gonna be considered the aggressor by the flaggers and assumed to be involved in anything questionable.  This is were the much higher horsepower class A cars have an advantage dicing through traffic passing less frequently in braking zones or mid-turn.

We do have one difference though.  We have somehow landed in Class A.  I suspect it's the reasonably fresh RockAuto closeout struts I made room in the budget to buy.  At first, I was frustrated because we've never turned enough laps in a weekend to win Class B.  But, I eventually realized it was a good thing for our overall enjoyment and the team performance.  We no longer have any chance to win.  So black flags, earned or not, don't bother me.  Mechanical failures are simply team building exercises.  These things no longer "lose the race" for us.  It's a more laid back weekend and somehow fewer things seem to go wrong.  We still haven't "won" Class B, but we have several top 10 finishes now, that's top 10% of the field here in the gulf coast region.

BTW If you haven't done so already, you should consider getting another set of rear hubs with a fresh set of bearings installed and replace the hubs preemptively Saturday evening.

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Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

racerxr wrote:

With well over 100 cars on the track at any given time and 16+ hours of racing in a weekend, flagging a Lemons race accurately and fairly is impossible.  So, we learned to consider black flags as yet another seemingly random occurrence that you only have marginal control over.  It's been our experience that black flag karma evens out in the long run.  We've been black flagged for contact when another car backfired as it passed my driver mid-turn, and I've watched video from my car and seen my drivers accidentally pass under yellow and not get a flag.

We have a very similar situation as your team.  We have a 2700 lbs 110hp FWD car (300 lbs and 7 hp more than your car)  with stock tank and filler tube.  Our car begins to fuel starve after burning just 7-9 gallons of fuel.  We have one hot-shoe and 3 solid drivers.  The delta in lap times is something like 5-10 seconds.  The difference in session duration before fuel starve is 15 to 30 minutes depending on the track.  I've created a spreadsheet and analyzed a few of our races and it turns out that the extra session time gained by the more conservative drivers usually saves us a fuel stop per day and more than makes up for the lap time delta.  It turns out endurance racing is a resource management game, not a foot race.

Fuel isn't the only thing we can manage with lap times.  Other things like tires, brakes, wheel bearings, and even black flags can be mitigated with a little more conservative driving.  With all the cars on the track, flaggers rarely have a perfect view of on-track incidents.  So it often comes down to perception.  A car that is often passing deep in braking zones or mid-turn is gonna be considered the aggressor by the flaggers and assumed to be involved in anything questionable.  This is were the much higher horsepower class A cars have an advantage dicing through traffic passing less frequently in braking zones or mid-turn.

We do have one difference though.  We have somehow landed in Class A.  I suspect it's the reasonably fresh RockAuto closeout struts I made room in the budget to buy.  At first, I was frustrated because we've never turned enough laps in a weekend to win Class B.  But, I eventually realized it was a good thing for our overall enjoyment and the team performance.  We no longer have any chance to win.  So black flags, earned or not, don't bother me.  Mechanical failures are simply team building exercises.  These things no longer "lose the race" for us.  It's a more laid back weekend and somehow fewer things seem to go wrong.  We still haven't "won" Class B, but we have several top 10 finishes now, that's top 10% of the field here in the gulf coast region.

BTW If you haven't done so already, you should consider getting another set of rear hubs with a fresh set of bearings installed and replace the hubs preemptively Saturday evening.

Nicely written and delivered.  My only hesitation is, much of our fun is based upon the desire to compete and do well.  All of us are either track club members or pros, so lapping in a Chevy Aveo just for the sake of track time, is just not satisfactory.  We have all the track time we want and more!  However, if we actually pilot this POS to a win, now that would be quite a fantastic day!

I really do like how you label a black flag as a "seemingly random occurrence".  Now that just clicks with me, primarily because I have certainly gotten away with more than I have been accused...as I am sure we all have.  Again, thanks for the kind words!