Re: Converting a gasoline engine to diesel power.

Thanks for the tip on OM603 pistons, but I can't find any for sale except on eBay for 95 GBP each. OM606 pistons are the same bore, but shaped for four valves and even more expensive/harder to find.

Sleeving the bores sounds like more work than I'd want to get into, even if it does make cheaper pistons an option.

Okay, hold on. Looks like the OM615 has the same 87 mm (3.425") bore as the later 603/606. These pistons might actually be cheap and available enough to use on a stupid project that is likely to blow up quickly. Judging from the pictures I'm seeing, it looks like the compression height is much larger than stock 225 pistons. This is good, since it would require less block milling, but too much and we're out of business again. Of course, the rod length will also be critical for this. I need to find these numbers as well as the rod journal diameter. The slant six rod journals are 2.187", I think. If it's not far off of that, at least custom bearings are cheaper than custom rods.

Doing more digging...

Re: Converting a gasoline engine to diesel power.

If the pistons stick up a little bit too far you could turn them down in a lathe. You can sort of make them fit the combustion chamber to up compression and get a quench/pocket area going.

-Killer B's (as in rally) '84 4000Q 4.2V8. Audis never win?

28 (edited by markaudacity 2015-04-15 09:17 AM)

Re: Converting a gasoline engine to diesel power.

OM606 parts are goddamn impossible to find. >_<

615 parts are gonna be rare as hen's teeth in the US, I don't think the 200D or 220D ever made it over here officially, and they'd be collector's items if you ever found one.
OM617, 601, 603, and 606 are the only ones you're likely to find parts for from anyone but the dealer, and MBZ prices on engine hard parts are hard to get your mind around. $900 for a set of rings for a 606.

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Re: Converting a gasoline engine to diesel power.

Too bad the 606 rings are so expensive. I know where I can get a set of used rods and pistons. smile

Rockauto is being dumb about some of these models, but if I've actually found the correct engine, it looks like you can get a set of piston rings for the 603 Turbo for $85. Now all we need to do is find a 1987-1993 W124 300D Turbo in the junkyard and rob it of its rods and pistons. Assuming that car and engine was actually available in the US during those years.

Re: Converting a gasoline engine to diesel power.

It WAS! And what's better, it had head casting problems and overheated if someone spit on the sidewalk (turns out putting a thermal reactor right next to the head on top of a turbo is a bad idea?), so they're not that hard to find in ratty condition.

Pistons'll be fine, tho.

Logistics Pessimist/CAPCOM for Escape Velocity Racing
Heroic Fix - Gator-o-Rama 2014

Re: Converting a gasoline engine to diesel power.

Well, unless we drag the press to the pick'n'pull, they're probably coming out together anyway.

Re: Converting a gasoline engine to diesel power.

Sleeving cylinders is $100/hole where I'm at.  Rods, if you can find something in the length you need with a smaller journal, you can simply have the crank rod journals ground down, including possibly offset grinding to get your compression height, maybe.  This would be $$ too, and shops that can do that are pretty scarce from what I've seen.  If that rod you need is something in the 6.00-6.400 range, NASCAR has all sorts of weird length super premium  rods on ebay with Honda(1.88) journals for Lemons level money.  S/F.....Ken M

Re: Converting a gasoline engine to diesel power.

You're doing it wrong. You want to run the gasoline in the diesel engine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Or74MTqefo

"THE WONDERMENT CONSORTIUM"
Everything dies baby that's a fact,
But maybe everything that dies someday comes back?

Re: Converting a gasoline engine to diesel power.

You need to go old school and start the motor on gas then switch over to diesel after it warms up a little...

For example:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UNdjbsMwI4

Nick
Focke Ewe racing -> Muttonheads! Racing -> Torque Junkies
86ish VW GTI...now with TDI Powah!

Re: Converting a gasoline engine to diesel power.

What I need is for the collective hoonconscious to find me a 2-valve diesel engine with bores in the 86.5-88.5 mm range that's readily available in the states. Then I just need to figure out if the stock rods will work, and/or how much custom machine work I'll need to have done. Then I'll start looking for another worn out forged-crank slant 6 so we can get this stupid project ready for 2016 or so.

Re: Converting a gasoline engine to diesel power.

Yanmar has some diesels with bores in that range.  3TNV88C has 88mm bore, 90mm stroke, 3 cylinders for 1.64L displacement.  Uncertain about parts availability.  Kohler also does small diesels with pistons in this size range.  There's a team in SCCA CSR running 2cycle Kohler engines and I believe they have some factory support, so you might find some help from Kohler if you can get in contact with the right people.  Kohler's online service manuals show the pistons look like normal 3 ring automotive flat top jobs, so perhaps diesel specific pistons may be unneeded.  S/F....Ken M

Re: Converting a gasoline engine to diesel power.

Yeah, I'm not sure how diesel specific they'd have to be, either. I was looking at pictures of pistons for (if I remember right) the Isuzu diesel that came in the Chevy LUV, and they looked just like flat top gas pistons as well. But others I've seen like from Mercedes diesels and heavy-duty diesels have a much thicker crown section.

I'll check out Yanmar. Looks like there are a lot of Chinese suppliers. That's an arena I've never dived into before, so I may have some research to do. I don't want to drop $100 on a set of pistons from Alibaba and then get something 3 months later that doesn't match what I ordered.

38 (edited by echosixmike 2015-05-11 09:25 PM)

Re: Converting a gasoline engine to diesel power.

One thing that is very common in diesels is piston oil sprayers.  IIRC, there was a nifty technique for machining a conrod to make it throw oil onto the bottom of the piston, I recall it was common on Porsche motors.  That might be worth looking into as well.  S/F....Ken M

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic … p;start=30

pg 3 halfway down, there's a picture of what I'm talking about.  Volkswagon, Porsche, same difference, lol.

Re: Converting a gasoline engine to diesel power.

I think you could just have a set of not too expensive custom pistons made by JE and have the ring stack placed a little lower.

40 (edited by fleming95 2015-05-12 10:38 AM)

Re: Converting a gasoline engine to diesel power.

SpaceFrank wrote:

What I need is for the collective hoonconscious to find me a 2-valve diesel engine with bores in the 86.5-88.5 mm range that's readily available in the states.

<snip>

All I can offer is something with an 87.5mm bore size, available in Europe, but it has wacky cred:

How about an diesel engine designed by Isuzu, bought by GM, and put into Saab 9-5s (and Renault Espaces for even more wackiness):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMAX_V6_engine

Re: Converting a gasoline engine to diesel power.

I saw that when I was researching Isuzu engines, but I assume since it was never available in a stateside car that pistons for it would be expensive to get here.

Okay, stupid question: Where is a good place to buy replacement pistons? Rockauto has crapped out on me so far, even for engines that were very common in the states. Price is important. I'm looking for something in typical aftermarket parts price range. I don't want to shell out for custom pistons or shipping from Germany for a project that is likely to explode or need an overhaul quickly when we fuck something up.

Re: Converting a gasoline engine to diesel power.

The problem is the original pistons are tall, measured from the Pin Center to the top of the piston 44.83 mm. Modern pistons are lighter (better for high rev-ing engines) and defacto shorter. For example Nissan VG30 (pathfinder 6 Cyl 3.0) pistons of 87mm stock are 32mm height (c-t) with 9 cc of dish. So to make up for the 13mm of height difference you need a longer connecting rod.

Stock 225 cu in rods are 170.18mm center to center
Stock 198 rods are 177.97 mm c-c. 8mm of difference, raises the piston and the CR
Nissan KA24 stock rods are 165mm C-c and they are some of the longest of the Nissan con rods I know of. The LD28 rods are only ~139mm long

The Sealed Power pistons for that range of bore (87.5mm up to 88mm) which are talked about for the long rod slant six are all 39.929mm height. Using the 198 conn rod, stock 225 crank and bored block gets you to the 12.7 static CR range. BUT the piston hits the head (piston extends out of the block by .8433mm). So you have to mill the piston. the Sealed power pistons are ~$100 for 4 (they are for the dodge 2.2l turbo). So you buy 1 set plus 2.

The solution to getting the Higher CR for a slant six diesel is to mill the head. And use the 198 con rods with some of those sealed power or Clevite pistons, and mill the tops off by ~.9mm.

Running my spreadsheet, with the Clevite TC2912, if you reduce the size of the head chamber from 54cc to 26 cc, you'll get 18.54 Static CR in my long rod engine. 15.95 dynamic CR with the Big Delta cam that was in there. With a stock cam, the  dynamic CR should go up a bit. the Clevite TC2912 are ~$30 each.

Too bad the long rod I built is in the JY, it had the 198 rods and sealed power pistons, and ran, all you would need to to is mill a head.
http://row52.com/Vehicle/Index/VH23C2B292839

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Re: Converting a gasoline engine to diesel power.

Frank i sent you my engine calculations spreadsheet, which has a bunch of slant 6 versions. info in the e-mail.

If anybody else wants a copy I can post a google docs link. Its set up for Nissan engines, but you can enter your own information.

How much to mill the head??
Take the head off.
Put some plumbers putty on the head where the valves will hit. Put a thick (3/8") quarter sized piece. BUT less total material than is in the head volume.
Oil the valve faces
Put the head back on with the used head gasket, torque half way
connect the timing chain/belt
Pull the plugs
Rotate the engine by hand (wrench) 2 full turns or more. Don't bend a valve
take the head off.

Cut with a razor and measure the thinnest part of the putty where the valve would impact the head. The thickness minus the min clearance will tell you how much you can mill the head.

80" clearance between intake valves and pistons at all times, and at least .100" for exhaust valves, which expand more with heat. Add .030" to these figures if you have aluminum rods in the engine to allow for their expansion and stretch.

Engine builders have found that all you need on the intake side is the total amount of deck clearance plus .010”-.015” for piston rock (pivoting in the bore wall). On the exhaust side, you need 2 to 2 ½ times the clearance you have on the intake.

If aluminum rods are being used, add a minimum of .030” to these suggested clearance figures, as they stretch and expand more than steel rods.

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?Everyone who has ever built anywhere a 'new heaven' first found the power thereto in his own hell- Frederick Nietzsche

44 (edited by chevette 2015-05-16 06:42 PM)

Re: Converting a gasoline engine to diesel power.

Man, this thought is killing me.  Keep in mind I am a diesel mechanic, but not a diesel hot rodder.  These are basically opinions based on 22 years in the business tearing down and rebuilding engines.  My biggest issue would be the injectors.  If you use the older pop style injectors, you will need a higher compression ratio.  Otherwise the spray pattern may burn a hole in a piston.  Also, the older engine like the one in the Chevette, are idi, so injector placement and the combustion chamber relationship are critical.  The newer common rail injectors would work with a lower compression ratio, but that's gonna take some impressive electronic work as well as a high pressure oil pump to fire the injectors. 
     Pistons would be easy enuff, take an old one to a machine shop and have them make them from a solid billet of a high quality material.  That's what I'm working on doing for the Chevette.  As for a head gasket, again, take a stock one to a machine shop, and have one made from copper.  They can make it in any thickness to adjust compression ratio.

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Re: Converting a gasoline engine to diesel power.

so, why not get MB diesel engine? older once, per electronic fuel injection.

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Re: Converting a gasoline engine to diesel power.

Because where's the fun in doing something that other people have ready done that you know will work?
This is for SCIENCE!

Logistics Pessimist/CAPCOM for Escape Velocity Racing
Heroic Fix - Gator-o-Rama 2014