• From: Boston, MA
  • Registered: 2015-08-12
  • Posts: 265

Topic: Road Car to Build and Mod

Hey, 

I am looking to get a second car to have as a project car that I can tinker with.  It will not be a Lemons car, just a fun project.

I am looking to get a car that is pretty cheap with available parts and pretty cheap performance parts.  I am looking for a car that is RWD and a sedan, preferably two door.  What I want to do is build a motor for the car and then swap that in, along with suspension and other upgrades. Also E85 for max power.   

What I am thinking is to get a Volvo 240 (because nostalgia, my dad had one when I was a kid and i like the square styling), hopefully a 242 if I can afford one.  There are a bunch of upgrade parts for the 240 series and Volvo parts are super cheap.  Also I think I read that it is pretty easy to swap in a Redblock or Whiteblock engine.  Or if i am really adventurous I could put a 2JZ in it. 

what I am looking for are other options.  What brands and models take upgrades well on the cheep?  There has got to be something form Nissan and the RB20 engine,  I am just not familiar with the brand, also I don't want to make a filthy drift missile.  I also kinda want to steer away from Honda because I had a civic and I'm ready for a different brand. 

What do you all think.

Moot Point Racing - 1991 Volvo 240 - #496

2 Reply by Guildenstern (edited by Guildenstern 2016-03-28 07:19 PM)

  • From: Cleveland, OH
  • Registered: 2011-09-03
  • Posts: 2,227

Re: Road Car to Build and Mod

Whatever has a Chevy 350.

At least 60% of all Summit and Jegs inventory is parts for the Chevy Smallblock.

Followed by the Ford 302/351W

If you want chassis and suspension too, I'd say a nice G-platform like a Malibu/Monte Carlo/Regal/Cutlass etc..
OR if you have 5 elbows the F-Platform Camaro and Firebird.

On the Ford side, Your options are FOX body Mustang, and SN95 Mustang. (yea Fox T-bird too, but it is different enough to limit chassis stuff as I'm learning.)

You may have to go south to get a good rust free version.

Those will have the most parts, the cheapest go faster parts, and the easiest sourcing of parts.

Edit: Pro Tip: The 240 series Volvos love a nice chevy smallblock.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
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3 Reply by OnkelUdo (edited by OnkelUdo 2016-03-29 04:58 AM)

  • Registered: 2011-10-14
  • Posts: 4,167

Re: Road Car to Build and Mod

mully006 wrote:

Hey, 

I am looking to get a second car to have as a project car that I can tinker with.  It will not be a Lemons car, just a fun project.

I am looking to get a car that is pretty cheap with available parts and pretty cheap performance parts.  I am looking for a car that is RWD and a sedan, preferably two door.  What I want to do is build a motor for the car and then swap that in, along with suspension and other upgrades. Also E85 for max power.   

What I am thinking is to get a Volvo 240 (because nostalgia, my dad had one when I was a kid and i like the square styling), hopefully a 242 if I can afford one.  There are a bunch of upgrade parts for the 240 series and Volvo parts are super cheap.  Also I think I read that it is pretty easy to swap in a Redblock or Whiteblock engine.  Or if i am really adventurous I could put a 2JZ in it. 

what I am looking for are other options.  What brands and models take upgrades well on the cheep?  There has got to be something form Nissan and the RB20 engine,  I am just not familiar with the brand, also I don't want to make a filthy drift missile.  I also kinda want to steer away from Honda because I had a civic and I'm ready for a different brand. 

What do you all think.

A 242 is not a sedan.
The motor in the 240 is already a red block.
Volvo 240 parts are either going down in quality (aftermarket) or down in availability (quality aftermarket, some OEM) or up in price (OEM).
240 performance part are mostly NOS or from a company called IPD or require some modification to work.
Hipsters drove up the market on these cars in a lot of areas so finding one in rust free, basically sound condition is getting difficult.

All that said, I love Volvo 240's and have a had number of them over the years.  Post 1986 cars survive rust better (no 242's).  There are two common engine upgrade paths on these; B230FT motor from the 7/9 series or V8 swap.

The B230FT stock is not enormously powerful but the guys at turbobricks have a lot of tricks for little to no money for pushing into the 250-275 hp range without significantly impacting durability.  Running E85 requires moving to a megasquirt type system and replacing a few of the fuel lines/o-rings.  Going crazy on that motor is still an option but prices and complexity escalate rapidly.

V8 swap has many flavors with the Converse Engineering kit being the closest to turnkey.  Outside of the Buick/Rover motor, if you are doing DIY the Ford 302 is the easiest.

If you want boxy-but-good and are not wed to the Volvo 240 specifically, the 960 is your best bet.  Engine and transmission failures are both very common so the market even for running ones is crappy.  The sedans can be had all day long for $1500 running and driving.

  • Registered: 2011-10-14
  • Posts: 4,167

Re: Road Car to Build and Mod

Guildenstern wrote:

Edit: Pro Tip: The 240 series Volvos love a nice chevy smallblock.

Actually, the 7/9 series love an SBC but it is a tough shoehorn on the 240 requiring approximately 12 steering u-joints or a header with such a tortured path that the driver side bank will have significant flow issues.  The 302 fits much better and the Buick/Rover V8 maintains the 50/50 weight distribution (wagon only) but performance parts are less common (donor motors are plentiful).

  • From: Boston, MA
  • Registered: 2015-08-12
  • Posts: 265

Re: Road Car to Build and Mod

Guildenstern wrote:

Whatever has a Chevy 350.

At least 60% of all Summit and Jegs inventory is parts for the Chevy Smallblock.

Followed by the Ford 302/351W

If you want chassis and suspension too, I'd say a nice G-platform like a Malibu/Monte Carlo/Regal/Cutlass etc..
OR if you have 5 elbows the F-Platform Camaro and Firebird.

On the Ford side, Your options are FOX body Mustang, and SN95 Mustang. (yea Fox T-bird too, but it is different enough to limit chassis stuff as I'm learning.)

You may have to go south to get a good rust free version.

Those will have the most parts, the cheapest go faster parts, and the easiest sourcing of parts.

Edit: Pro Tip: The 240 series Volvos love a nice chevy smallblock.


I am aware that a lot of people put V8's in the 240.  Personally I am not a huge fan of American "classic" cars.  I not sure why, I just never really got the bug.  I am not apposed to a V8 I just really want to end up with a turbo something, and if I have a V engine my love of symmetry would force me to twin turbo with the mirrored ones from Nelson racing engines.  And that is not a budget build.

Moot Point Racing - 1991 Volvo 240 - #496

6 Reply by dculberson (edited by dculberson 2016-03-29 12:10 PM)

  • From: Columbus, OH
  • Registered: 2009-05-26
  • Posts: 2,839

Re: Road Car to Build and Mod

OnkelUdo wrote:

A 242 is not a sedan.

It sure is! It's a two-door sedan. It has an A B and C pillar and sufficient room in the back seat for passengers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedan_%28automobile%29

On to the original subject - the Volvo 240 series is a great classic foundation for a lot of fun. I can't think of much that competes. It's not a sports car but it's also not an overweight land yacht. People make fun of them for being heavy but they're about 2800 lbs (242) to 3200 lbs (245). Nowadays that's a positively svelte car - an S2000 weighs 2800 pounds! If you can get 200 - 300 hp in a 240 they're good performers. The stock suspension is very soft but that's easily solvable. Interior plastics haven't aged well and some years had biodegradable wiring that will need addressed. But overall they're a solid platform to start with.

Other options might be a classic Celica (RWD era of course) or early Supra, both of which have good swap opportunities. The Celica can be a tight fit for the 2JZ but the 1UZ-FE swaps in readily. The disadvantage there is the cost of a manual transmission swap. It's gotten cheaper lately but I think you'll still be a thousand bucks into just the adapter parts (slave cylinder, flywheel, and bellhousing adapter) before you get the thing hooked to a manual of your choice. The Supra swallows a 2JZ really well and manual transmissions bolt right up.

Supra:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/df/6f/a4/df6fa491a754a1e4c6f128975bc8dc6c.jpg

Early Celica:
http://www.engineswapdepot.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/1973-Toyota-Celica-with-a-Twin-turbo-1UZ-FE-01.jpg

The early Datsun RWD stuff can be polarizing. A Datsun 510 is near universally loved but the 210 and others are a love it or hate it affair. I would love a 510 with an RB20det.

http://www.datsuns.com/red/red-jul-2k5.jpg

Early Saabs speak to me but they're all front wheel drive.

Quad4 CRX - Wartburg 311 - Civic Wagovan - Parnelli Jones Galaxie - LS400 - Lancia MR2 - Boat - Sentra - 56 Ford Victoria
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7 Reply by mully006 (edited by mully006 2016-03-29 12:27 PM)

  • From: Boston, MA
  • Registered: 2015-08-12
  • Posts: 265

Re: Road Car to Build and Mod

dculberson wrote:

Early Saabs speak to me but they're all front wheel drive.

Same, MCM's 900 build kinda kicked off my decision to get a project car.  I really want a clean 900 but they are FWD and parts are hard to find and expensive.  I liked the early Celica you had a picture of, and the Datsun.  Not a huge fan of the Supra,  from what I have read they are a great platform, but the JDM ricer culture kinda ruins it for me. 

I will have to look into the Celica and some Datsun's I know very little about them.

Moot Point Racing - 1991 Volvo 240 - #496
  • From: Boston, MA
  • Registered: 2015-08-12
  • Posts: 265

Re: Road Car to Build and Mod

OnkelUdo wrote:

A 242 is not a sedan.
The motor in the 240 is already a red block.
Volvo 240 parts are either going down in quality (aftermarket) or down in availability (quality aftermarket, some OEM) or up in price (OEM).
240 performance part are mostly NOS or from a company called IPD or require some modification to work.
Hipsters drove up the market on these cars in a lot of areas so finding one in rust free, basically sound condition is getting difficult.

All that said, I love Volvo 240's and have a had number of them over the years.  Post 1986 cars survive rust better (no 242's).  There are two common engine upgrade paths on these; B230FT motor from the 7/9 series or V8 swap.

The B230FT stock is not enormously powerful but the guys at turbobricks have a lot of tricks for little to no money for pushing into the 250-275 hp range without significantly impacting durability.  Running E85 requires moving to a megasquirt type system and replacing a few of the fuel lines/o-rings.  Going crazy on that motor is still an option but prices and complexity escalate rapidly.

V8 swap has many flavors with the Converse Engineering kit being the closest to turnkey.  Outside of the Buick/Rover motor, if you are doing DIY the Ford 302 is the easiest.

If you want boxy-but-good and are not wed to the Volvo 240 specifically, the 960 is your best bet.  Engine and transmission failures are both very common so the market even for running ones is crappy.  The sedans can be had all day long for $1500 running and driving.

If it is not a sedan then what is it?

The B230FT upgrade is what I was thinking about.  I would like to build one up, including internals just because it would be an interesting project.  I did a very quick google for some parts and it did appear to be more limited than I originally thought, which is too bad.  The V8 swap just doesn't really appeal to me. Like I said to Guildenstern I would want to turbo it so that would escalate cost quickly. 

What do you thing a reasonable build of the B230FT could make? I don't have a target but if you have an idea what gains I could achieve over the stock internals that would be great.

Maybe I'll just get a Miata and turbo that...  everyone does that though

Moot Point Racing - 1991 Volvo 240 - #496
  • From: Columbus, OH
  • Registered: 2009-05-26
  • Posts: 2,839

Re: Road Car to Build and Mod

I've always wanted to do a 1UZFE swap into a Volvo 242. Unusual swap, light v8 motor, 250ish hp (or 300 if you go 3uzfe) stock, very stout internals that take to boost readily.

I say go nuts. Start with a 1UZFE powered 242 and then later boost it. But then it's not my sanity and checkbook I'm exhausting. ;-)

Quad4 CRX - Wartburg 311 - Civic Wagovan - Parnelli Jones Galaxie - LS400 - Lancia MR2 - Boat - Sentra - 56 Ford Victoria
Known Associate of 3pedal Mafia, Speedycop, and the Russians.  Maybe even NSF.

10 Reply by mully006 (edited by mully006 2016-03-29 12:54 PM)

  • From: Boston, MA
  • Registered: 2015-08-12
  • Posts: 265

Re: Road Car to Build and Mod

I'm not committed to RWD I've just never had one before.  My Honda was FWD and my Subaru is AWD.  Here are some more cars I was interested in but they do not tick all the boxes

Mk2 Golf GTI
Saab 900
Some kinda of turbo Subaru.  I have the feeling that any WRX or STI you can buy for under $4k has had a very hard life. 
Jeep Cherokee XJ 2-door standard
Fiat Panda 4x4 Gen 1 (too bad you cannot get these in the USA, you could import one I guess)
Classic Mini
Peugeot 205 GTI (also have to import)
E21 or E30 BMW

That's all I can thick of for now.  I'll edit when I think of more

Moot Point Racing - 1991 Volvo 240 - #496
  • From: Boston, MA
  • Registered: 2015-08-12
  • Posts: 265

Re: Road Car to Build and Mod

dculberson wrote:

I've always wanted to do a 1UZFE swap into a Volvo 242. Unusual swap, light v8 motor, 250ish hp (or 300 if you go 3uzfe) stock, very stout internals that take to boost readily.

I say go nuts. Start with a 1UZFE powered 242 and then later boost it. But then it's not my sanity and checkbook I'm exhausting. ;-)

This might be a reasonable sane idea.  Will look into it.  Depends on how much fabrication work is required to get the engine in.  I do not have extensive fabrication skill or tools to use.  So as little as possible is best.

Moot Point Racing - 1991 Volvo 240 - #496
  • From: Tustin, CA
  • Registered: 2010-12-30
  • Posts: 3,275

Re: Road Car to Build and Mod

Looking through your list, what jumps out -

Saab classic 900 convertible.  Particularly if we get one from out here in the west.  They could be had here, delivered there for under $5k  Pretty sure that they would bring a lot more dollars and hold their value in CT

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/ct … 32390.html

6 cyl E30 is probably going to be the easiest as there is lots of stuff out there for them.

E21 is intriguing for this specific application.  In comparison to the 2002 before it and the E30 after it, those cars sucked.  Slow, heavy.  Hardly a performance car.  All the plastic interior bits broke, etc.  All that makes them cheap to buy.  And the platform isn't that horrible that it's problems can't be overcome if hot-rodded.

http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/cto/5486636188.html

Golf, Subaru and Jeep don't do much for me.  Perhaps too pedestrian.  The others are kind expensive or fragile to live in CT.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
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  • From: Boston, MA
  • Registered: 2015-08-12
  • Posts: 265

Re: Road Car to Build and Mod

cheseroo wrote:

Looking through your list, what jumps out -

Saab classic 900 convertible.  Particularly if we get one from out here in the west.  They could be had here, delivered there for under $5k  Pretty sure that they would bring a lot more dollars and hold their value in CT

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/ct … 32390.html

6 cyl E30 is probably going to be the easiest as there is lots of stuff out there for them.

E21 is intriguing for this specific application.  In comparison to the 2002 before it and the E30 after it, those cars sucked.  Slow, heavy.  Hardly a performance car.  All the plastic interior bits broke, etc.  All that makes them cheap to buy.  And the platform isn't that horrible that it's problems can't be overcome if hot-rodded.

http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/cto/5486636188.html

Golf, Subaru and Jeep don't do much for me.  Perhaps too pedestrian.  The others are kind expensive or fragile to live in CT.

These are good points.  If I was to get a Saab 900 I would not get the convertible because it think its a bit ehhh.  I hadn't really thought too much about shipping the car.  I do travel a fair amount for work so I could hypothetically fly out somewhere and then drive it back or something.

Moot Point Racing - 1991 Volvo 240 - #496
  • Registered: 2011-10-14
  • Posts: 4,167

Re: Road Car to Build and Mod

mully006 wrote:

If it is not a sedan then what is it?

I was sticking strictly to Volvo's definition but it is a coupe.

Building a B234FT is the "ultimate" for complexity and how much you can spend.  It marries the B234F (16V) head to the rest of a B230FT.  Outside of ultimate horsepower it gains you little...torque is lower until high RPM's, etc.

Refreshing a B230FT then doing the APC Saab add-on or similar and picking the turbo rebuild that meets your goals would likely meet all your needs.  That said, megasquirt can simulate the same action as the APC (it basically pulses the cold start injector in certain circumstances) with the right programming.
Go to turbobricks.com for more info. 

Just refreshing the motor is around $1000-1200 for machining, head gasket, rings, bearing, seals and oil pump.  The right trim of turbo (if either the Mitsubishi or the T3/4 does not please) can run $600-2000 plus your programmable BOV.  Add to that the megasquirt stuff and in the end I would guess a skilled fabricator, or one with access to one, you are looking at north of $5000.  You CAN do it cheaper depending on your skills and willingness to junkyard dive.

The old-school turbo+, APC, manually adjusted BOV can still be lots of fun until you blow the motor and is what I was describing with the 250 HP using junkyard parts.

  • From: Seattle, WA
  • Registered: 2009-10-28
  • Posts: 2,111

Re: Road Car to Build and Mod

OnkelUdo wrote:
mully006 wrote:

If it is not a sedan then what is it?

I was sticking strictly to Volvo's definition but it is a coupe.

"Coupe" is one of those words with a definition that has fluctuated over the decades, but inasmuch as a 242 has a full-sized cabin and a full-sized rear seat, it's really more of a two-door sedan than it is a coupe.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally

16 Reply by OnkelUdo (edited by OnkelUdo 2016-03-29 05:08 PM)

  • Registered: 2011-10-14
  • Posts: 4,167

Re: Road Car to Build and Mod

mharrell wrote:

"Coupe" is one of those words with a definition that has fluctuated over the decades, but inasmuch as a 242 has a full-sized cabin and a full-sized rear seat, it's really more of a two-door sedan than it is a coupe.

For arguments sake, is the BMW 2002 a coupe or a sedan?

I known the Eurotrash folks have recently been blurring lines again with 4-door coupe (I believe VW CC was first) but the Camry 2-door was even classified as a coupe and I guarantee it has more seating in back than a 242...and do not get me started on "Executive Coupes" from the American makers that could often carry a half dozen dead hookers between the back seat and the trunk.

  • From: Seattle, WA
  • Registered: 2009-10-28
  • Posts: 2,111

Re: Road Car to Build and Mod

OnkelUdo wrote:

For arguments sake, is the BMW 2002 a coupe or a sedan?

I'd call it a sedan. The Neue Klasse coupes are instead the 2000C and 2000CS with their cramped (in comparison to a 2002) rear passenger areas. I agree, however, that for the purposes of advertising, anything can be called anything.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally
  • From: Gilbertsville, PA
  • Registered: 2009-12-22
  • Posts: 3,251

Re: Road Car to Build and Mod

I can't believe you're talking about a budget, rwd toy and not even considering fox body fords or 4th gen f bodies. 

Maximum bang for the buck.

You could even build a Turbo 2.3 mustang with a 16v Volvo head,

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  • From: Boston, MA
  • Registered: 2015-08-12
  • Posts: 265

Re: Road Car to Build and Mod

Sir Thomas Crapper wrote:

I can't believe you're talking about a budget, rwd toy and not even considering fox body fords or 4th gen f bodies. 

Maximum bang for the buck.

You could even build a Turbo 2.3 mustang with a 16v Volvo head,

Well I don't know a lot about American cars so I didn't know they were good for budget builds.  I have heard of them, but that is it.  Also like I said before they don't really push the right buttons for me.  I didn't grow up around them or anything so I don't have an attachment.

Moot Point Racing - 1991 Volvo 240 - #496