Re: 2017 Rules Update?

On the topic of lug nuts, that's actually great logic. I'm really glad we don't allow tire changes on the hot pits, because I'm quite sure we'd see more wheels coming off on track if teams were incentivized to attach them in even more of a hurry than they already are. Removable steering wheels certainly make sense for some cars (or car/driver combinations), but mandating them for all cars doesn't seem wise to me.

In a general sense, adding additional complexity and room for constructor/operator error is not always the best way of dealing with a hazard. I'm not necessarily arguing against any of these 2017 (or understood 2018) changes, primarily because I'm pretty confident in the ability of Lamm, Pagel, and co. to weigh all the factors. Especially if they're getting input from the insurance company... like them or not, judging the likelihood of idiots dying in various circumstances is kinda their job.

Re: 2017 Rules Update?

Mandating removable steering wheels would be interesting. Some cars would be a challenge.

I started piecing together one for the Saab, and it was a nightmare. First off I'm pretty sure the steering column is aluminum, so weld on is a no go. Next, even though Saab was owned by GM, they don't use a GM spline. Instead they use an old 48 spline that I can't find record of anyone using since old school Land Rovers. I found one company that makes quick release adapters for 48 spline:
http://schroedersteering.com/steering-wheels/   Part number 2570

However their hubs are all simple 3 bolts. But they are the same style of hub that are all over the place, like this one:
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance- … 9/10002/-1

So Schroeder will sell you just the 48 spline insert for about $40 (!), and then you try to mate it to a hub like the one from Jegs. However you'll find that the Schroeder insert is a few thousandths too large in diameter (but the mating spline is perfect).


So, to get a working quick release on the saab, here is what I had to do/still have to do.

1. Buy the Schroeder insert
2. Buy a hub from Jegs to match the steering wheel I own
3. File off the large boss on the steering column that only allows the wheel on one way
4. Mount the insert on a lathe and reduce it's OD by about .005 to make it fit in the Jegs hub.
5. (to do) Make a new nut to hold the insert onto the steering column
6. (to do) make or buy a wheel spacer to get the steering wheel further from the dash
7. (to do) Enjoy my new quick release steering wheel

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Abandoned E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: 2017 Rules Update?

SpaceFrank wrote:

On the topic of lug nuts, that's actually great logic. I'm really glad we don't allow tire changes on the hot pits, because I'm quite sure we'd see more wheels coming off on track if teams were incentivized to attach them in even more of a hurry than they already are. Removable steering wheels certainly make sense for some cars (or car/driver combinations), but mandating them for all cars doesn't seem wise to me.

In a general sense, adding additional complexity and room for constructor/operator error is not always the best way of dealing with a hazard. I'm not necessarily arguing against any of these 2017 (or understood 2018) changes, primarily because I'm pretty confident in the ability of Lamm, Pagel, and co. to weigh all the factors. Especially if they're getting input from the insurance company... like them or not, judging the likelihood of idiots dying in various circumstances is kinda their job.

Considering that every hazardous occurrence that has necessitated a rule change has occurred during a race at Sonoma with too F'n many cars (seriously, name one elsewhere), why insurance doesn't lean on them to get the car count down, is beyond me. The Camaro got hit, time for a change in kill switches. Ferkel got bashed above the carousel? HANS for everyone. Ranchero smackdown? Now we need to monkey with steering columns.

Mandating steering wheels be removable seems foolish. Are you also mandating that they have to be removed on exit? if so, you're slowing my exit abilities. Our car is almost 7 feet wide and a Pillarless hardtop coupe. Our oldest driver can make the exit within the rules with or without opening the door, how does making the wheel come off make it safer? It adds an unnecessary step which takes time.

Tradewinds Tribesmen Racing (The road goes on forever…)
#289 1984 Corvette Z51 #124 1984 944 #110 2002 Passat
Gone but not forgotten, #427-Hong Kong Cavaliers Benz S500
IOE (Humber!) Hell on Wheels (Jaguar)

29 (edited by VKZ24 2016-12-14 02:55 PM)

Re: 2017 Rules Update?

cheseroo wrote:

Not sure why you had a go at me because I shared my experiences and expressed my opinion that mandating removable steering wheels is a bad idea.

Sorry, I didn't for my response to sound like I was irritated by you giving your opinion.  You were stating yours, I was stating mine.  Like has been said, most mandates are likely insurance related anyway.

I have no problem with 99% of the Lemons rules, but as you know, we don't get a vote, right or wrong.  I'm still campaigning for us to be allowed to clean WINDSHIELDS ONLY on the hot pit (for safety reasons), but HQ is concerned it will spiral out of control, which I don't get.  The current rules say we can add ice to coolers only (safety concern, especially at CMP in SC) so why not add clean windshield's only?  Do anything else, and you get to visit the penalty box.  If you've driven the last stint at Barber, heading toward the setting sun, with rubber all over the windshield, you really understand.  Yes, I know we can go back to the paddock and clean the windshield, but this is a race.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: 2017 Rules Update?

Type44 wrote:

Considering that every hazardous occurrence that has necessitated a rule change has occurred during a race at Sonoma with too F'n many cars (seriously, name one elsewhere), why insurance doesn't lean on them to get the car count down, is beyond me. The Camaro got hit, time for a change in kill switches. Ferkel got bashed above the carousel? HANS for everyone. Ranchero smackdown? Now we need to monkey with steering columns.

That is a rather good point that hadn't occurred to me before.

Every time one of these rule updates happens, someone complains about the additional cost and someone else says something like "yeah, but you can't put a price on safety." And they're both right. In addition to making a good point about car counts, Rob's comment kinda brings home exactly what bothers me about this whole thing: there's an additional requirement added for everyone any time a bad enough wreck happens, and most of these incidents are what I'd call edge cases. This doesn't seem like a sustainable risk management philosophy.

I know this series is still way cheaper and easier to get involved in than most of the other options (and more fun, which is more important). But if this keeps up, then at some point I fear the whole "budget" part of this budget racing thing is going to erode away.

Re: 2017 Rules Update?

Type44 wrote:

Ferkel got bashed above the carousel? HANS for everyone.

In fairness, the Nash/Miata incedent was earlier in the year and pretty much sealed that deal...Ferkel validated it.

Re: 2017 Rules Update?

VKZ24 wrote:

Yes, I know we can go back to the paddock and clean the windshield, but this is a race.

Now that I've been a safety marshal for the hot pits at a Lemons race, I guarantee that line of reasoning would be invoked by teams trying to change transmissions out there if the list of allowable activities progressed beyond "two" to "several." A lot of teams seem to have difficulty remembering what is and isn't on the list of two things as it is.

Besides, in this specific instance, the inevitable spilling of buckets of soapy water and littering of paper towels and rags by people in a hurry in an area where other people are trying to drive and refuel seems like a bad idea. This means there would have to be rules about what constitutes appropriate "hot pit windshield cleaning methods, approved cleaning supplies and quantities allowed over the wall" and so on, making for one more thing to patrol instead of watching for fueling issues. No, thank you.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally

Re: 2017 Rules Update?

VKZ24 wrote:
cheseroo wrote:

Not sure why you had a go at me because I shared my experiences and expressed my opinion that mandating removable steering wheels is a bad idea.

Sorry, I didn't for my response to sound like I was irritated by you giving your opinion.  You were stating yours, I was stating mine.  Like has been said, most mandates are likely insurance related anyway.

I have no problem with 99% of the Lemons rules, but as you know, we don't get a vote, right or wrong.  I'm still campaigning for us to be allowed to clean WINDSHIELDS ONLY on the hot pit (for safety reasons), but HQ is concerned it will spiral out of control, which I don't get.  The current rules say we can add ice to coolers only (safety concern, especially at CMP in SC) so why not add clean windshield's only?  Do anything else, and you get to visit the penalty box.  If you've driven the last stint at Barber, heading toward the setting sun, with rubber all over the windshield, you really understand.  Yes, I know we can go back to the paddock and clean the windshield, but this is a race.

Oh, but we DO get a vote. As a business, you can act like you're the IRS and issue proclamations to your customers only as long as your phone keeps ringing. Once you have no backlog, no waiting list, and your capacity exceeds profitable operation, you have a situation on your hands. Ask GM as they awaited a bailout.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to come across that whiny, but it's hard to frame it in a less abrasive manner. Yes, there are a ton of other series to race cruddy cars in and they have a bunch of rules also. (And by a bunch I mean a big fat book)... It's just that every time somebody gets into a really good crunch at an oversubscribed race, it adds to my list of stuff I have to spend $ on. And the more I have to put into a car we race twice yearly or so, the less I have to spend on other pursuits. SAid other pursuits become more attractive the pricier this "cheap" racing becomes. At some point I stop buying this year's fancy safety gadget and focus on finishing the shifter kart or touring on the Guzzi.

Tradewinds Tribesmen Racing (The road goes on forever…)
#289 1984 Corvette Z51 #124 1984 944 #110 2002 Passat
Gone but not forgotten, #427-Hong Kong Cavaliers Benz S500
IOE (Humber!) Hell on Wheels (Jaguar)

34 (edited by VKZ24 2016-12-15 08:21 AM)

Re: 2017 Rules Update?

mharrell wrote:

Now that I've been a safety marshal for the hot pits at a Lemons race, I guarantee that line of reasoning would be invoked by teams trying to change transmissions out there if the list of allowable activities progressed beyond "two" to "several." A lot of teams seem to have difficulty remembering what is and isn't on the list of two things as it is.

Besides, in this specific instance, the inevitable spilling of buckets of soapy water and littering of paper towels and rags by people in a hurry in an area where other people are trying to drive and refuel seems like a bad idea. This means there would have to be rules about what constitutes appropriate "hot pit windshield cleaning methods, approved cleaning supplies and quantities allowed over the wall" and so on, making for one more thing to patrol instead of watching for fueling issues. No, thank you.

So to be clear, are you saying it's a bad idea, or it's just that you don't want to have to police it? 

The same can be said for allowing ice to be added to the coolers.  What if someone spills some water?  What if they slip on the ice and fall?  Can you use something other than ice?  How much ice can you add?  If you spill some ice, and nobody sees it, did it really spill?

It's pretty easy IMO to "what if" something to death, even if it's as simple as adding fuel, ice, or cleaning a windshield.  The reality is, this isn't something most teams would do at every stop.  For us, the only time we would do it (if we were ever allowed to do so) would be during the last hour of Barber.  I see you're in Seattle, and since you guys only get sunlight one hour per week, it's probably not a real issue for you.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

35

Re: 2017 Rules Update?

I can see the other issue with cleaning the windshield is a guy running around the car trying to quickly clean the windshield and not paying attention to what is coming down the pitlane.  Limiting the number of people doing things is the hot pits helps safety.

Racing 4 Nickels - 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
2011 SHOWROOM-SCHLOCK SHOOTOUT  IOE Winner
2012 The Chubba Cheddar Enduro Class C winner
Facebook Page

36 (edited by mharrell 2016-12-15 03:09 PM)

Re: 2017 Rules Update?

VKZ24 wrote:

So to be clear, are you saying it's a bad idea, or it's just that you don't want to have to police it?

No, not "or... just." I think it's a bad idea and I don't want to police it. I think policing it is part of why it would be a bad idea, as it would be time spent not watching for fueling issues.

My guess, and it's purely a guess, is that Lemons HQ decided that dumping ice into a cooler inside a car, where spilled ice more likely will end up on the floorboards instead of on the ground, is not a perfect situation but is an acceptable risk. If you want to make the case for more non-fueling activities in the hot pits, they're the ones you need to convince, not me.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally

Re: 2017 Rules Update?

Is Lexan still permissible in the rear and side windows?  Not sure by reading the rules.

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: 2017 Rules Update?

TeamLemon-aid wrote:

Is Lexan still permissible in the rear and side windows?  Not sure by reading the rules.

I was thinking "oh Lord, please no Lexan discussions" but you are right it does appear that Lexan is not allowed in side/rear windows even though it is allowed for windshields.  However, I don't believe that was their intent.  IIRC, the genesis of this rule was they discovered that some older cars didn't have laminated glass in rear/side windows and they wanted to ensure that stuff didn't end up all over the track.  Perhaps someone could poke John to clarify that.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: 2017 Rules Update?

cheseroo wrote:

...it does appear that Lexan is not allowed in side/rear windows even though it is allowed for windshields.

That part of rule 3.J.9 reads "All glass windshields or windows must be OE-type automotive laminated or tempered glass" so it's a question of whether "glass" is meant to be taken only with "windshields" or also with "windows." I suspect the intent is "all glass windshields or glass windows" which would mean that polycarbonates, such as Lexan, are still okay for windows. It's just that if any window is glass, it's got to be proper automotive glass. I agree clarification should come from Lemons HQ, though.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally

Re: 2017 Rules Update?

mharrell wrote:
VKZ24 wrote:

So to be clear, are you saying it's a bad idea, or it's just that you don't want to have to police it?

No, not "or... just." I think it's a bad idea and I don't want to police it. I think policing it is part of why it would be a bad idea, as it would be time spent not watching for fueling issues.

My guess, and it's purely a guess, is that Lemons HQ decided that dumping ice into a cooler inside a car, where spilled ice more likely will end up on the floorboards instead of on the ground, is not a perfect situation but is an acceptable risk. If you want to make the case for more non-fueling activities in the hot pits, they're the ones you need to convince, not me.

Also there's a lot of "But this is still a race" people that would skip refilling their cool shirts and go to Jelly on the track becoming a menace to everyone. Hang around the penalty box around 4pm on a good hot day and watch for the blank stare. If you're heat stroking out enough to be Black Flagged you're already a danger to yourself and everyone else, and you're the last person to know about it.

Ice in the Hot Pits is to get the Nickel Chasers to at least not make things EVEN worse out on the track.

Cleaning windows at race pace? Yea I've seen that clown and pony show before. Doesn't belong on the Hot Pit.

LeMon up some way of cleaning your windshield without having to break out a spray bottle and paper towels.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: 2017 Rules Update?

Guildenstern wrote:
mharrell wrote:
VKZ24 wrote:

So to be clear, are you saying it's a bad idea, or it's just that you don't want to have to police it?

No, not "or... just." I think it's a bad idea and I don't want to police it. I think policing it is part of why it would be a bad idea, as it would be time spent not watching for fueling issues.

My guess, and it's purely a guess, is that Lemons HQ decided that dumping ice into a cooler inside a car, where spilled ice more likely will end up on the floorboards instead of on the ground, is not a perfect situation but is an acceptable risk. If you want to make the case for more non-fueling activities in the hot pits, they're the ones you need to convince, not me.

Also there's a lot of "But this is still a race" people that would skip refilling their cool shirts and go to Jelly on the track becoming a menace to everyone. Hang around the penalty box around 4pm on a good hot day and watch for the blank stare. If you're heat stroking out enough to be Black Flagged you're already a danger to yourself and everyone else, and you're the last person to know about it.

Ice in the Hot Pits is to get the Nickel Chasers to at least not make things EVEN worse out on the track.

Cleaning windows at race pace? Yea I've seen that clown and pony show before. Doesn't belong on the Hot Pit.

LeMon up some way of cleaning your windshield without having to break out a spray bottle and paper towels.


You are supposed to run wipers. Is there a "race safe" solution you can use as wiper fluid?

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: 2017 Rules Update?

I assume water would be fine for wiper fluid. Combined with a Rain-X treatment before each day's race, that oughta be enough.

Re: 2017 Rules Update?

Yeah.  I think it was written to get people to update their unsafe glass in their 1948 Plymouth not eliminate Lexan.

mharrell wrote:
cheseroo wrote:

...it does appear that Lexan is not allowed in side/rear windows even though it is allowed for windshields.

That part of rule 3.J.9 reads "All glass windshields or windows must be OE-type automotive laminated or tempered glass" so it's a question of whether "glass" is meant to be taken only with "windshields" or also with "windows." I suspect the intent is "all glass windshields or glass windows" which would mean that polycarbonates, such as Lexan, are still okay for windows. It's just that if any window is glass, it's got to be proper automotive glass. I agree clarification should come from Lemons HQ, though.

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: 2017 Rules Update?

TeamLemon-aid wrote:

Yeah.  I think it was written to get people to update their unsafe glass in their 1948 Plymouth not eliminate Lexan.

mharrell wrote:
cheseroo wrote:

...it does appear that Lexan is not allowed in side/rear windows even though it is allowed for windshields.

That part of rule 3.J.9 reads "All glass windshields or windows must be OE-type automotive laminated or tempered glass" so it's a question of whether "glass" is meant to be taken only with "windshields" or also with "windows." I suspect the intent is "all glass windshields or glass windows" which would mean that polycarbonates, such as Lexan, are still okay for windows. It's just that if any window is glass, it's got to be proper automotive glass. I agree clarification should come from Lemons HQ, though.

I think Phil already bought all the old glass out of the 48 Plymouth.

Owner of the Knights Templar Neon
A&D of middling proportions

Re: 2017 Rules Update?

mharrell wrote:
cheseroo wrote:

...it does appear that Lexan is not allowed in side/rear windows even though it is allowed for windshields.

That part of rule 3.J.9 reads "All glass windshields or windows must be OE-type automotive laminated or tempered glass" so it's a question of whether "glass" is meant to be taken only with "windshields" or also with "windows." I suspect the intent is "all glass windshields or glass windows" which would mean that polycarbonates, such as Lexan, are still okay for windows. It's just that if any window is glass, it's got to be proper automotive glass. I agree clarification should come from Lemons HQ, though.

I actually put an email in to Pagel as soon as I saw this. The more I look at it, I don't think it outright bans Lexan, but it could probably use to be clarified.

Owner of the Knights Templar Neon
A&D of middling proportions

Re: 2017 Rules Update?

VanillaHaze wrote:
TeamLemon-aid wrote:

Yeah.  I think it was written to get people to update their unsafe glass in their 1948 Plymouth not eliminate Lexan.

I think Phil already bought all the old glass out of the 48 Plymouth.

We will have to remove the rear glass.  Front is apparently tempered per Randy.

Re: 2017 Rules Update?

SpaceFrank wrote:

I assume water would be fine for wiper fluid. Combined with a Rain-X treatment before each day's race, that oughta be enough.

It never seams to be, There's always that really smeary mess after a couple hours of oil spray and bugs.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: 2017 Rules Update?

Guildenstern wrote:
SpaceFrank wrote:

I assume water would be fine for wiper fluid. Combined with a Rain-X treatment before each day's race, that oughta be enough.

It never seams to be, There's always that really smeary mess after a couple hours of oil spray and bugs.

The only time I remember us cleaning a window mid race is just as the sun starts to set but I can see reasons it would be required before that.

I do see teams at Gingerman (paddock fueling) checking tire pressures and cleaning the windshield every fueling stop.  I wonder about their sanity as one team in particular cannot seem to keep their wheels on their car in spite of the OCD attention to lug nut torque and tire inflation pressures.

49

Re: 2017 Rules Update?

OnkelUdo wrote:
VanillaHaze wrote:
TeamLemon-aid wrote:

Yeah.  I think it was written to get people to update their unsafe glass in their 1948 Plymouth not eliminate Lexan.

I think Phil already bought all the old glass out of the 48 Plymouth.

We will have to remove the rear glass.  Front is apparently tempered per Randy.

The rules are for Glass specifically so I would assume lexan is ok.  It to make sure large pieces of glass doesn't slice and dice the driver

Racing 4 Nickels - 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
2011 SHOWROOM-SCHLOCK SHOOTOUT  IOE Winner
2012 The Chubba Cheddar Enduro Class C winner
Facebook Page

Re: 2017 Rules Update?

OnkelUdo wrote:
Type44 wrote:

Ferkel got bashed above the carousel? HANS for everyone.

In fairness, the Nash/Miata incedent was earlier in the year and pretty much sealed that deal...Ferkel validated it.

FWIW, Ferkel vs. Miata vs. Miata was 2015, and Nash vs. Miata vs. 944 was early 2016.

I'd have loved to see some tweaks to rules enforcement given the number of yellow flag smash-ups this year, but I digress.