Topic: New Team in NJ - advice

3 other friends and I just picked up our car. It's an 86' AW11 with a bit of rust and soon to have a lot of elbow grease. Our plan is to start with the NJMP race this season and then hopefully roll into the other 2 northeast races this summer. We have all our receipts and saved the craigslist ad to help in defending the price of our car. We've also gone through the rules a number of times and feel fairly comfortable knowing what we need to change/add so that our car will pass tech (most nervous about the roll cage). Additionally each of us is slowly acquiring SFI rated racing gear to be legal. After all that work, we'd hat to not be able to race. I've seen that there are a few races where teams get waitlisted/rejected due to too many applicants for a race. Is this an issue at the NJ race?

I've seen that teams with good themes get priority. Our number one mission is to get the car ready for a safe, fun weekend of racing. That in mind, how much time should we put into a theme?

Re: New Team in NJ - advice

We are doing our first race at Barber's this weekend. We spent about 9 months building our car (mazda MX-3) and only about the last two weeks with one guy working on the theme. Our priorities were the same - car first, then theme if we get to it. We got to it, but most of it will be removed before the car goes on the track. There are lots of teams from races I've been to that don't bother with a theme at all. I don't think you have to have the best theme in the world. But if you at least do something, I'd assume you'd make it in over a team who did nothing.

That said, we're in the Southeast region. The races are well attended, but not overfilled like some areas.

Re: New Team in NJ - advice

OutlawAnything wrote:

..... (most nervous about the roll cage)......

What??

IF you have concerns or questions ask them BEFORE you build!!!  Waiting until you are at the race is asking for trouble.  Yes, the rules are very clear, but you can and will run into things that are not covered.



Bill

CT LeMons 2016 Thompson Motor Speedway #36 Sabrina Duncan's Revenge, IOE Trophy, 5th Place 'C' Class 1977 Ford Pinto
CT LeMons 2009 Stafford Motor Speedway #16 Team Teflon, 11th Place (overall) 1997 Saturn SL2

Re: New Team in NJ - advice

And Please, ask BEFORE you weld and preferably before you cut, it makes it less awkward when someone has to tell you that won't work.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL) https://www.facebook.com/groups/MBTLracing/
88 Thunderbird "What's the word? Thunderbird!", "What's the Price? Thirty Twice!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)

Re: New Team in NJ - advice

If you have signed up for jersey already you should be fine.
It does sell out occasionally, but earlier signups seem to get a little bit of preferred treatment with regards to getting waitlisted. 
The theme will help out at BS inspection time, Impress the judges and they wont break your balls to hard.
Lame or no theme and you will likely get BS laps added on.
Reliability first, Theme second, go faster Third! ............Remember this!
Most teams will give you advice and help on the race weekend. Don't be shy, ask questions,its all in fun!
Look out for the old Rover with a Grover stuffed muppet on the roof. Stop by and say Hi.
Manny.

Re: New Team in NJ - advice

Post pics of your cage for us veterans to critique.  We may save you some trouble.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
#411
'93 Acura Integra

Re: New Team in NJ - advice

Start with another car.  Seriously.  I owned/raced one.

1) the cage is going to be hell to make.  If you leave the roof on (and we didn't) then the cage is going to be very low and you will need to bolt the seat directly to the floor.  The rear stays should go through the rear window area to the strut towers.

2) It's a mid-engine car.  It will try to kill you every chance it gets.  Oh, you're going into turn 1 and a little off line - let me spin you around and show you that apex you should have hit.

3) the 4AGE engine is notorious for spinning bearings if it loses oil pressure for even a second.  A single nice long turn will do that by taking the oil up into the valve covers and away from the pick-up and starve the oil pump.  On top of that, the stock pump cavitates at high RPM so you real racing red line is much lower. 

I could go on, but I would not consider it a beginners race car.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: New Team in NJ - advice

where in NJ are you?

The Roto-Racer '89 Merkur:  If it ain't rusting, It ain't racing.

'14 Real Hoopties of NJ: Judges Choice

Re: New Team in NJ - advice

RobL wrote:

Start with another car.  Seriously.  I owned/raced one.

1) the cage is going to be hell to make.  If you leave the roof on (and we didn't) then the cage is going to be very low and you will need to bolt the seat directly to the floor.  The rear stays should go through the rear window area to the strut towers.

2) It's a mid-engine car.  It will try to kill you every chance it gets.  Oh, you're going into turn 1 and a little off line - let me spin you around and show you that apex you should have hit.

3) the 4AGE engine is notorious for spinning bearings if it loses oil pressure for even a second.  A single nice long turn will do that by taking the oil up into the valve covers and away from the pick-up and starve the oil pump.  On top of that, the stock pump cavitates at high RPM so you real racing red line is much lower. 

I could go on, but I would not consider it a beginners race car.

These guys are veterans of the series and I would seriously consider their advice in regards to your car choice.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita" 
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)
1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless)
1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites) (Sold -> Houston.  Gone and forgotten)

Re: New Team in NJ - advice

Outlawanything- not sure where you are located but we are in South Jersey and running 3 cars at NJMP this year.  You are welcomed to stop by and see what we have done.  All 3 cages built by different people and even another team a few houses down with a car that I believe RobL above built.  If you're not local it would be a good idea to befriend a team near you to bounce ideas off of.  Dirt cages are often not legal in Lemons.  Also, don't worry about being accepted just put in your app now and you'll likely be fine.

Team Glue Sticks
00 Firebird, 02 X-Type, NX200, 00 Mazda 626 (Sold)
2016 NJMP Heroic Fix

Re: New Team in NJ - advice

In you're in the northern part of the state, you're welcome to stop by and see our car any time. We're based in Rockaway with a '90 240SX. We're pulling the car from storage next weekend and will most likely see some garage time every weekend between then and the race. We've learned a lot over six races and two years.

Chief Gadget Inspector
Six-time Loser
1989 (or '90) Nissan 240SX

Re: New Team in NJ - advice

Joe Regulator wrote:

In you're in the northern part of the state, you're welcome to stop by and see our car any time.

Same offer here.  We're spread around the state, but the car sits in my driveway (well, lawn) in Butler, NJ.

Re: New Team in NJ - advice

-SDR- wrote:
OutlawAnything wrote:

..... (most nervous about the roll cage)......

What??

IF you have concerns or questions ask them BEFORE you build!!!  Waiting until you are at the race is asking for trouble.  Yes, the rules are very clear, but you can and will run into things that are not covered.



Bill

That is why for our 1st build we PAID to have ours done, even know we have a great welder/fab guy. We didn't want to have any issues, however after seeing some of the cage work....

http://i68.tinypic.com/1zx427t.jpg

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: New Team in NJ - advice

Good to see another AW11 there. We will be there in one of the garages, not sure which one yet. Car 351, the cosmonaughts.

I have to mirror what other people said. Ask cages questions early and often. The cage in our car came with it but hand't been raced in 10 years and had to be modified for lemons. it is tight an uncomfortable for a taller guy (6'2") like me. We picked up a new car at the end of last year, but that wont be ready for this race, we hope to make a better cage with more room and safety.

Also as previously mentioned, this car will try to kill you. It is not a good car to start with, and arguably not a good car for lemons because it does not like lifting in the corners, and other associated evasive maneuvers in the corner that are common at lemons races. We have finally gotten the suspension/brakes/tires to a point that the drivers on our team can recover safely when it tries to switch ends on you. Also, add a splitter/air dam to the front. These cars get super light in the front at the high speeds through the last corner of NJMP and the straight.

We ran our first race on the 4age, and then blew two of them at our second. Both were pretty tired engines and even with our added oil cooler and sumped pan and valve cover drain backs. These engines are also hard to find nowadays, so much so that we actually made money when we sold our blown engine and bought all the parts to do a 1mz swap. if you are set on keeping the 4age, I would set up a oil pan with extra capacity and trap doors, add an oil cooler, and an upgraded radiator.

Feel free to contact me if you have any questions about set up, or if you need any spare parts. We have a ton Mk1a parts since the engine swap and are now running Mk1b rear suspension.

Re: New Team in NJ - advice

RobL wrote:

Start with another car.  Seriously.  I owned/raced one.

1) the cage is going to be hell to make.  If you leave the roof on (and we didn't) then the cage is going to be very low and you will need to bolt the seat directly to the floor.  The rear stays should go through the rear window area to the strut towers.

2) It's a mid-engine car.  It will try to kill you every chance it gets.  Oh, you're going into turn 1 and a little off line - let me spin you around and show you that apex you should have hit.

3) the 4AGE engine is notorious for spinning bearings if it loses oil pressure for even a second.  A single nice long turn will do that by taking the oil up into the valve covers and away from the pick-up and starve the oil pump.  On top of that, the stock pump cavitates at high RPM so you real racing red line is much lower. 

I could go on, but I would not consider it a beginners race car.

Another new AW11 team here!

I guess I'm in for trouble as well. The car has a monster oil cooler in the right fender vent, any real benefit to it? Or is it mostly an oil pressure issue?

Re: New Team in NJ - advice

TURBOLOL wrote:

Another new AW11 team here!

I guess I'm in for trouble as well. The car has a monster oil cooler in the right fender vent, any real benefit to it? Or is it mostly an oil pressure issue?

I saw your other post about your cage - oy, you guys are behind the curve on this...  The oil cooler is there to keep pressure and keep the oil from deteriorating.  Look at what I said about cavitation, and add heat and low pressure and you are in for problems.  I imagine that was a regular racing (SCCA Sprint races) car and not an endurance car and they need that cooler to keep the engine together.  Now imagine racing for 10-16x as long - 5-8 hours vs. 30 minutes. 

--Rob

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: New Team in NJ - advice

At present the car is in Staten Island with one team member. 2 of us live around Secaucus and the other is upstate NY. Not so nervous about the snap oversteer. In fact it's one of the reasons we kind of like the car (we really wish we found a turbo instead of the N/A, but our financial stooge couldn't cut it). Our seat arrangement is on the floor and we all fit just about perfectly with it that way and we maintain the 2" helmet distance. We found the diagrams of the 3 cage options. Our setup currently is the right/left main bar (fig. 1C of how not to fail lemons tech), but our issue is that the header bar is not contiguous, nor is the main bar as it gets close to the main hoop (fig. 1C). Everything else is how it looks on the diagram (except we need to weld it to the floor). Our thought is to convert it to the Halo type (fig 1B), which would get rid of our non-contiguous sections and get the cage within spec. I've seen pre-cut pieces for sale on places like Summit, etc. and other speed shops for a reasonable price, and would just need to trim to our specs.

18 (edited by OutlawAnything 2017-04-01 02:29 AM)

Re: New Team in NJ - advice

My Teamate already posted this issues with pics in the tech area, but in case anyone didn't see it... attached are 2 pics, hopefully they convey what I tried to say above.

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv35/bmvoigt/IMG_1386_zpsubducgij.jpg

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv35/bmvoigt/IMG_1387_zpswabklppq.jpg

Re: New Team in NJ - advice

From what I have seen the bolt in cages as a whole are not acceptable. Even cutting out the "halo" section and replacing with a contiguous piece will be difficult and may still not make the cage legal.

Need more pics!

Re: New Team in NJ - advice

Nix that last post. Didn't see your separate cage post in tech section.

Re: New Team in NJ - advice

Is that whole cage a bolt in?  It is highly advised by everyone not to attempt to convert a bolt in cage into a welded one.  Tech will not like it.  It is also highly advised that you find a local team in North Jersey there to check out what they've done and maybe pay them in beer to advise you on how to build a proper lemons cage if you're intent on doing it yourself.  Even if you can weld, having someone who has installed a cage, or several, before is a huge asset and will save you hundreds of dollars and countless hours of cutting out what didn't work right the first time.  There is nothing worse than getting to tech Friday before the race only to have the inspector fail your cage.  Especially when you're hours from your shop.  At a minimum a couple guys on this thread are extremely experienced cage builders and can guide you in the right direction.

Team Glue Sticks
00 Firebird, 02 X-Type, NX200, 00 Mazda 626 (Sold)
2016 NJMP Heroic Fix