cup to lemon (Page 2 of 4)

I think another big difference it that the MTGT is able to drive on the street it has plates and pass all the requirements to be register in California, which is not one of the easier states to get this done in.

Do they have VIN numbers?
If you cut the cage from the T, it's just a Hot Rod. We did replace the door skins and Hood with custom panels, but the tub, bed, and grille shell are OEM Ford Body panels. The roof panel is only there to meet safety rules. The bulk of the car body is production panels. The cost of authentic doors is far to high to use them on a Lemons car, and the hood is only there to conform to the rules.

I didn't read it as an argument as much as I read it as a question.

Further question on my part would include, were those cars born to be race cars?

Even if they were born from showroom stock crap, letting them in would instantly make Lemons a spec race for those chassis. The MTGT is a fresh design on a 1920s theme, not a race version of a 1980s car.

I think the MTGT has some issues to it that make it hard to contend with on some levels but I can wrap my head around legal builds that would let me do my own thing and maybe keep up with it. I don't have any good idea of how I would do that with a IMCA (or similar) car.

...granted, there are a whole basket-load of cheaters and about five different "types" of sportsman and street-stock cars from circle-track out there(in the circle-track world, and if you don't count year-to-year rule changes) but the general gist is that those cars were just Camaros and Firebirds with the bodies off and something like a 305/318 stuck in.

...now as to "spirit of the rules", that's another question.

all this aside - I'm afraid the days of "non-fabricated" cars having a chance at winner on laps are going to come to an end rapidly - as in I (speaking for a vast number of "us") certainly don't have the facilities to make a MTGT, and  w/o serious welding help or some mighty spendy tools couldn't come up with a bike-engined car... but even so, as "it gets done" others will follow the lead and we'll be seeing speed and reliability creep in this area.

~I could, however, purchase a circle-track car, paste a Munsters theme or a Space 1999 shuttle them or a.. pretty easily on it and have a similar type of vehicle, had I the drive to... Speed-screwing sheet metal is well inside my fab capabilities :-)

Perhaps the head office needs to give a handicap to cars with this kind of power-to-weight ratio that is induced by extreme fabrication with like, say 400 treadwear instead of 200? (and yeah, I've seen the power to weight thread)

I kind of wonder if the powers that be would allow the mtgt to be built to run again.  It turned out better than I think anyone thought it would, but even with that I don't see it yet being that to compete you have to completely fabricate your car.  The most dominant car this year has been a MX3.  Haven't seen the car but I don't think its been completely rebuilt and modified to be some kind of one off racing moster.

How many of your so called "fabricated" cars have won on laps?  And how many races have there been?  It's not even 10% "fabricated" cars at this point, you're just jumping to conclusions.  The series is dominated by reliable, cleanly driven and well crewed crap cans.  The "fabricated" cars are a blip.

If you took a cup car and turned it back into a street legal car, including getting a plate and insurance on it, then lemoned it, I bet you could get it in.  But you would also be putting way too much work into something that would then lose to a Saturn SL2.

The MTGT is undoubtably a VERY COOL CAR! I like it the quality of its build. I think for publicity it's fantastic for Lemons. I respect your driving and  the level of competition you guys bring to the track, and yeah, I hope you get more wins on laps, too, 'cause you've had some bad parts luck...

But.

A RANT>

JalopyShoppe 'm not against the MTGT - I'm against 100% FABRCATING something that couldn't be done in your/my/ANYONE"S driveway.

You guys have a SHOP that makes Rods. That's what you DO. That is patently NOT what the rest of "us" do. As a shop you have access to tools most of "us" have only seen in catalogs. "We" also don't have access to cherry-pick parts from a dozen ex-customer cars to place on one-end or the other of a ~fabricated~ space frame from a past era.

Most of "us" take POS EXISTING cars and mod them 'til they fall off the jackstands, are heavier than crap or look like swiss cheese, in  neighborhoods where the parking police ding you for oil changes and parking the wrong way - if not worse.

Some of "us" work in fields where we have limited access to lifts/pits, port-a-powers and welders, spare garage siding and angle iron, and maybe half a dozen wrecked bikes, but again, this same "us" is likely to be fabricating on a dirt driveway in cow-town, NOT A SHOP.

who has the decided advantage in question? The guy with the combination of tools, shop and boatload of resources.
...I wouldn't be able to fab the TGT in my driveway - I ~Might~ be able to fab the Angry Hamster, but only 'cause I could hide it under an EZ-up... and I would be starting with an existing "car". And, too I certainly couldn't pony up the amount of "safety" was involved in your cage build - my rather simple cage was $1200! I suspect yours was or should have been nowhere near that number, or again if it was, "free use" of the EG shop is an unfair advantage...

So it seems to "us" that you have PROFESSIONALLY BUILT a Lemons Car. Yes, Labor is free, but there just might be a boundary where labor and resources such as a shop to do that labor in are and unfair advantage.

Bring on Prickstine, The Bavarian Ranchero, V-8 Volvos, and even a square-tube GL1200 loyd. Hack a Mokiat, FiaGuzzi or Frankemiata. Give us Slant-six E-30's and poorly designed Radial engines. Cut out the middle of a Toyota Van and put an Audi engine in it.
~But don't expect anyone to fall for a car that was built from the ground up, one piece at a time to be called anything other than "kinda cheaty" - and don't ask people that couldn't in a million years gain access to your resources to forgive you your "ingenuity".

...Expect instead that "they" will want to know why "we" can't go buy a twenty year old sportsman bomber for $500, sell the cheap-circle-track stuff off it, throw in a T-5 and fab up or hang some cool-looking body panels for it... and be what you are w/o being an E-30.

~end of Rant~

Ok, really, are we turning into F1 or GTP or Can-Am or any other series that has been at times ruined by a few teams finding a loophole in the rules?

Luckily we are not because in the end the Lemons rules say that Jay and crew can decide whatever they want.  And a car like this, or whatnot, while yes technically legal they can just say no to and they will.  And thats what keeps this series together.

I hear a lot of talk about the MTGT in here, but I have to ask, have they won every race this year?  Is that car while yes a custom build not as much of a POS as many of ours (I seem to recall their transmission losing like every gear last race?).  Not only that but to question them using their own fab skills, how far do you take it?  I mean then maybe its not fair that I had to spend almost $3k for our cage to be built when other build it in their driveway for free.  And in the same respect my fancy cage made our car so stiff that we can out corner many cars we have no business out handling.  The MTGT is an awesome bit of fab work, but honestly that was the only way to even get the car safe enough to race.  If they didn't do half that stuff and got hit by something even as crappy as my Fox, at best the car would get ripped in half and be destroyed even in a minor collision (yes I know the frame if not rusty could survive the apocalypse, but the body structure on those things is a joke).    OTOH these former "stock cars" have a lot of money and time into the specific suspension and frame setups, and were designed under a cost no object setup and formula.  Yeah the MTGT guys are hotrod builders, but they used off the shelf parts, they don't have suspension rigs and things like that that were used to design these original chassis.

IMO the organizers feel its within the spirit of the rules, and its ONE car that while yes is fast, isn't out there destroying all.  And based on the obvious nature of which how this series is run (to keep everyone competitive) and things like the claiming rule, if they ever felt it would get out of hand they could just say "you're done" or "Heres $500, that thing is mine" and be done with it.