cup to lemon (Page 3 of 4)

I think the perception of what is or isn't kosher is whether you (the LeMoneer) is building up something into a Lemons car or debuilding something into a Lemons car.

Sure, all race cars are built up from something, but the stage prior to it getting to LeMons-- is it constructed or deconstructed (prior to reconstruction)? That may be a litmus test.

I'm thinking that the whole "legal for highway use" thing is a clause that is included in the insurance underwriter's contract, along with crumple zones, doors, hood, etc. As has been stated in other threads, If you want an exception from the rules, talk to Jay-- it's his ass that's going to get sued if someone wants to sue. He knows the Model T guys and if they are/are not the sue-happy type. Hell, Judge Phil and Evil Johnious were both attached to the team in some form back in the earlier days. If a newbie or otherwise unestablished entity who's never appeared in Lemons before were to suddenly show up with a home-built Catterham or even this

they'd be sent packing or given a bunch of BS laps and then watched carefully to see if they "get it".

Racing?

Winning?

In Lemons?

Remember, if it's about taking home the nickels then there's one 'winner' and a hundred+ 'losers'. 

If its about triumphing over and with that questionable heap of metal that's taken your team's time, money, and free will for months on end - be it an assemblage of parts from seven decades, a rusty flood victim, or your first ride that you can't let die in the junkyard - well, then, each of us has our own race to win, eh?

-Jeff

Also it should be pointed out that no one official has posted anything at all in this thread.  I think they are avoiding it like the plague.  If you feel it falls within the rules, email Nick and Jay, show them the add of the car you want to buy with why you feel it should be considered legal to race in Lemons.  If they say you can race it, you can race it, if they say you can't race it, you can't race it.

Dewinter FTW. lol

Is there someplace that IOE and the different classes are explained? I've seen references but no information.

E30's don't interest me. That being said, I WILL take that one that's done up like a Ranchero! That and Prickstine took a lot of skill to make look that way. I don't know what those people's mechanical skills are but they've got bodywork down. I guess it all comes down to your strengths and weaknesses. Do what you like with what you can do it with. If it's your vision of what a Lemons racer should be I think that's most important. If you're not having fun what's the point? Might as well be at work otherwise.

2.4 Whining, no, this is trying to clarify whether my friends with a rusted-out truck with a 350/TH350 that was got for free, an old circle-track car for scrap value and an odd collection of barnyard body parts *would be allowed* is worth their summer off t build or not, isn't THAT Is the original intent of this thread, no?
The way those friends have put it forth from reading what John and several others have claimed in other forums is that their "circle track modified" is a TUBE FRAME CAR - and so they just put it off. AND No, they aren't interested in buying a pinto/wartburg/e30, they have what they have.
...and then they actually GO to a Lemons race and see the MTGT...
and then one calls and says "did you see the HotRod article and?"
~get the drift?

Unibody/G body, I can't get 'em straight - I'm a *foreign car* kind of dude. My bad. I mean "body-on-frame" and "subframe-connected-by-tubes" Circle track rules. The fomer is what is in question, the latter is definitively "Tube frame". My bud's have a Pontiac Zyzx with Body-on-frame and a Chevy Grghgy with unibody and subframes - I used the wrong car names. again, My bad.

Hoverducky and Fleming?
Easy to win? what are you smoking dude? Rules to make it easy to win? go smoke some more...
The 400TWI is just a thought, and somehow you made it into I want a 400page book from Bernie Ecclestone - give me a break...
...Maybe a new class "AA" or whatever for "SuperLemons" - but I still think we're seeing speed-creep and reliability creep due to several factors and this is just one of them.

...serious though, even the speed/reliability creep in class "C" is pretty notable.

I ~LIKE~ driving a POS VW Beetle, and am not going after class "A" - hell, I'm not going after class "C"...
- but maybe, just maybe, others want to be *competitive* w/o quite so much... ground-up build-it-from-scratch necessity? Maybe they want to buy parts, sell parts and throw them on *an existing platform* and *have a chance* that isn't just waiting for another team to have a break-down? Or maybe they're from some dark midwestern hole-in-the-wall, have a field with old beat-up circle-track cars, are on unemployment and want to have the *same* pride of "we built it" that many of us do... are they in or are they out? I SEE that discussion need being made... maybe you can't.

whoever made the (I hope it's a) joke about showroom stock SCCA - haha you're ~funny~ (laughing hiccups)

Fish - it's still that it's not a "just a hobby" for you... it may not be BMR racing, but it is a shop where it's "what you do".
It Maybe is not as a number one income, but then still an income *manufacturing* cars.
Again, Read it to say Professional, built by a professional.
~and yep - that is praise and envy, and if I could, I would, but I can't, and I don't have the pal-base with anyone who can - hence the team (and car) I have, so I don't.

Gnometech - you misread somewhere - yep, I know you built it in a side garage, and I know you guys blew up a gazzilion engines and I just shake my head at where they come from because I have yet to source a single bike motor cheap - but I know they're out there so I just shake my head... same can be said for angry hamsters (but I get dizzy wondering why they pounded the V- engines so long)
BTB If you come across a 250 electric start anything, I have a pit-bike need. I haven't found one for under $350 that runs... and I can only afford trade or obscenely cheap...

As for "Three months building" somewhere up there - how many of YOU have spent hella more time on that *converted* crap-can you're driving than three months? I bet there are lots. I see enough threads of "I have a new car" and then only see the car the next *year* to know a LOT of time goes into all of our projects. Three months to do something like an MTGT? again, professional. Gnometech? care to weigh in on how much fab time? sheesh.
~thinking~ If you have less than that in a converted-not-fabricated car you're probably not in the top of class "A". THAT is a 2.4 argument...

LOL on the Chevy Monza - I want one!

Jallopyshoppe from above somewhere - (quote) added "nerf barfs" care to reconsider the wording? I hope/don't think you meant that...
( I realize you need what you have for safety - please reword!)
3.13: Nerf Bars Not Allowed: Added structural elements that extend past the original bodywork line are not allowed. In other words, no nerf bars, wheel-protection cages, or crash bars.

I missed a bazzillion post-reposts but I think it's covered.

What I'm getting here:
MTGT is Cool
- Yep thumbs up
some sorts of Ex-Circle track cars are not cool (old-school cheap modifieds at the top of list)
- I, and some others, think that judgement is uncool.
Fab-ing from the ground-up is/is not entirely "in the spirit of Lemons"
- no further comment, that seems like POV and $$ available determined answers
"tube frame" does not necc. mean anything with more tubes than frame... and if there is a VIN
- no "official" word *in rules* on this - read unresolved. By example, MTGT has opened Pandora's..

He meant "nerf bars".  Tech said the car had to have them.  The Illemonati were consulted and involved throughout the build. 

Phil has said it a number of times: if you want to build something questionable, start a conversation with Jay about it.  It seems to me that he wants to see crazy shit on track as much as anybody. 

This here forum thing isn't exactly an official channel of communications with our Lemony overlords, so I would suggest that your friends with the parts collection talk to the folks who make the decisions.

Scott

IOE isn't explained anywhere partly because exactly what it is changes from race to race.  Generally, speaking, it's the "best really bad car", but what constitutes "best" and "really bad car" can change depending on the field.  About the only thing I think you can say with any confidence is that a vehicle that began life as a sports car and didn't have a well-earned reputation as a total lemon is disqualified.

My approximation of how the individual classes break down:
Class A: cars that are expected to be both fast and reliable; ones that don't break and don't rack up black flags will be competing for the win on laps.

Class B: cars that are expected to be either slow and reliable or fast and rather less reliable; occasionally a car from this class will get the win on laps (see MSR in June), mostly they'll be scattered from the back half of the top ten down the rest of the field.

Class C: cars that are expected to be either brutally slow or only run about half the race.  I think IOE almost universally comes from this class.  Has a class C car won a race on laps?

JalopyShoppe - OK - I like/knew/suspected that the nerf bars are OK and Ok'd - I would have called them something else because of the rules in print - we aren't the only people talking/reading here and it (safety/rolbar rules) is easier if it doesn't get more confusing than it is...and as I said, yep, YOU need them. 100% behind that, and I think asking for variances for things like that to keep Spank's Mokiat and a few other toys in the mix is the best/only way.

As for more "out there" vehicles, easily made, like the MTGT Yep, EXACTLY what I'm "pounding the podium for" and why I jumped on this now very long and time-consuming thread!
I'm suggesting that if someone w/o access to your backyard op has access to an old full-frame or to the suspension-mounts frame Modified (RichVS, your late modified is not what I was looking at ~that~ is a more recent rules and/or the "other class" of "Modified" the full-frame'rs were common through to the late eighties and probably nineties before a large number of SoCal tracks dried up) and as mentioned, something like a 350/350 combo - 
~IF~ it/that were more clearly defined, less loudly decried, someone like Spank or I or an enthusiastic group of newbies *Could/Could-have* make up a S'Cool Bus or the Ice Cream Truck or the ... SOOOO much easier, ~and NOT~ be the slowest thing on the track :-)
(If you want a real ride, try driving something that feels like a tricycle on the freeway.... I urge you to drive Spank's Citroen or the mini on 3 cylinders, or my bug with the spare 40hp engine, or the Donk, or the... terrifying when someone goes by with 40-60mph closing speed)

- and so if I had it to start over (I'm far too invested in a beetle now) I would have hung a rusty 50's sedan delivery front and cowl (I saw in Lincoln for the price of the scrap) with a utility-truck bed (I saw on Craig's for $150) on a circle-track tube-on-frame car with some 318-ish engine (I think) old spec POS car from said eighties (I saw on Circle-Track News in Chico for $350)
...to make up "The good humor truck"
BUT - two things, first being I had seen on the forum(s) and heard that even the tube-on-frame circle track cars that look amazingly close to MTGT were verbotten, SO I was COMPLETELY put off -- and then the 'dub fell into my lap.

MTGT has put a wedge in that door. Precedence by similarity.

Speed creep - different thread - I'll feel like there needs to be an "AA" class for myriad reasons 'til for some reason I get stuft into it. And then I'll say Damn why did I suggest it.

- as to your op - yep. OK, whatever. Compare: I have a sewing business for motorcycle seats in my guest/storage/library room. It's tiny, dusty and has only a sawhorse and plank for a sewing table. I just Friday got a call from Chicago re one of my seats on some customers' bike - from a shop that wanted to know MUCH more... as if I were Corbin seats. Truth is I "only" work with one shop in SF and word-of mouth. I probably do two seats a month - if that, and get about $75 each... but I AM a professional upholsterer, want to be or not. Do people pay you to fab/mod/make cars? Do you give out your number for that sort of stuff? Fine lines are blurry.

So - I like the other thread - a Chevette Model-A. are those frames really that great? why?

Can we get a like button for forum posts?

To adress the time frame... I'm blessed with no children, and an understnading GF... Dave is retired. We chose to drop everything and get the car built for Buttonwillow... Call it a vacation.

As far as your sedan delivery/tube frame project...
What is the advantage of a circle track frame? It can't be the handling, because dirt and pavement are 2 different worlds. Not to mention that most have an altered left to right wheelbase to help with the left turn only situation. 
If it's just the fact that it's pre caged, and you want a cheap cage: quit whining.
If it's the fact that the frame is done, and you can't build a frame yourself: quit whining.
If you really wanted to build such a beast, try and befriend someone like Dave or I, talk them into your scheme and I bet it'd become reality. It would certainly get you farther than backhanded compliments and ranting that no one makes things easy enough for you...
I'm lucky enough to be a"professional" mechanic with the luxury of picking and choosing my projects. If it makes any difference, my current paycheck comes from making and installing sheet metal patch panels on a Datsun...

Speed creep:
It will happen. Happens in all forms of racing. For a guy that takes so much pride in the decision to build a slow car, you certainly complain about faster cars alot. The speed differential is part of any endurance race comprised of multiple classes. If you want to race with cars all going a similar speed: spec racing! It's out there. Otherwise, I guess you gotta find someone with a fast car that you can beat up...