101

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

wow, a whole lot of good info poured in within the span of a few minutes. let me see about answering all the questions:

1) yes, the PT6 is awesome and ridiculously priced. an engine that isn't flight worthy at the place i got a quote from is $165k  even if there are 10x cheaper engines that's still 4x more than i want to spend (looking to spend less than $5k on the engine)

2) hybrid electric, no, no, no. i don't care if you guys think i'm being stupid and hard headed anymore, just no.

3)i've recently gotten rid of a vette drivetrain and i'm familiar with them (bought a rolled chassis to get the frame/suspension for another Lemons project) the transmission is too long and the outputs are too far towards the end. i don't want to have to stretch the wheelbase of the car. that means that at the longest i can't have the output further than about 25" from the transmission face. maybe less depending on the drive to the transmission

4)turbine output direction isn't known yet. it depends on the turbine. i'll make sure i get the turbine before picking the rest of the drive train to avoid any drive train reversals if possible.

5)BoKu, those sites are valuable. i hadn't seen those before. buying a wrecked car for it's motor is often cheaper than buying the motor. i guess i should not be surprised that planes are the same way. and who the hell picks the model names: "Aircraft:    1991 Ayres Thrush" Thrush? really. yeah, i'd like to fly a Thrush!

6)what the heck does 400Hz DC mean? it's DC or AC, how can DC have a frequency?

7)"After landing the airplane veered off the runway and into a ditch." ok, some of this stuff makes for funny reading smile

8) i want to know more about $50 turbines. oh my goodness, i want some! can you get me more info about how to go about that?

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Marc wrote:

wow, a whole lot of good info poured in within the span of a few minutes. let me see about answering all the questions:

2) hybrid electric, no, no, no. i don't care if you guys think i'm being stupid and hard headed anymore, just no.


6)what the heck does 400Hz DC mean? it's DC or AC, how can DC have a frequency?


8) i want to know more about $50 turbines. oh my goodness, i want some! can you get me more info about how to go about that?

2. Yeah Yeah we don't need anymore Liberal retardation in this nation.

6. The Gen sets were 400hz AC.

8.  My buddy got them from a guy in Port Hueneme (Ventura)  California

These surplus gensets can be had... Back in the day i used to build monster trucks so call this guy-> Marc Boyce from Boyce Military surplus in Clarfield Utah. He most certainatly knows a guy who knows a guy as he always did when I needed Rockwell and other military hard parts.

_______________
#3 IROC MAIDEN

103 (edited by Scotty 2012-07-05 01:18 PM)

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

By the way... APU turbines are out there also... typically they are approx 100HP are less than 100lbs and operate in the 7000rpm range. Sea Stallion type choppers and smaller turbo jet aircraft have those. maybe even one from a CH47 could be had.

_______________
#3 IROC MAIDEN

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Maybe twin smaller turbines would be the way to go. Afterall, two is better than one...LOL

_______________
#3 IROC MAIDEN

105

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Scotty wrote:

By the way... APU turbines are out there also... typically they are approx 100HP and operate in the 7000rpm range. Sea Stallion type choppers and smaller turbo jet aircraft have those. maybe even one from a CH47 could be had.

I've got a line on a decent APU turbine already. that's not the problem, the problem has to do with their single spool design. it makes pulling power from the shaft to send to a transmission very tricky.

106 (edited by Marc 2012-07-05 01:20 PM)

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Scotty wrote:

Maybe twin smaller turbines would be the way to go. Afterall, two is better than one...LOL

twin would make for more parts but more redundancy. i'm not actually against this idea. i'd have to come up with some kind of gearbox with two sprag clutches so one turbine could just sputter and die without affecting the other.

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Marc wrote:
Scotty wrote:

Maybe twin smaller turbines would be the way to go. Afterall, two is better than one...LOL

twin would make for more parts but more redundancy. i'm not actually against this idea.


When I seen the gen sets my friend had a few years ago the turbines were the size of a kitchen trash can. You could run two of those side by each. then a convertor in the middle going back to your current transmission.  Or mount them above with a convertor between the two and a cog belt to the Suberu trans.

_______________
#3 IROC MAIDEN

108

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Scotty wrote:
Marc wrote:
Scotty wrote:

Maybe twin smaller turbines would be the way to go. Afterall, two is better than one...LOL

twin would make for more parts but more redundancy. i'm not actually against this idea.


When I seen the gen sets my friend had a few years ago the turbines were the size of a kitchen trash can. You could run two of those side by each. then a convertor in the middle going back to your current transmission.  Or mount them above with a convertor between the two and a cog belt to the Suberu trans.

except that the small turbines are usually a single spool design and you can't spool them up against a stalled torque converter, just not enough power at that RPM.

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Marc wrote:
Scotty wrote:

Maybe twin smaller turbines would be the way to go. Afterall, two is better than one...LOL

twin would make for more parts but more redundancy. i'm not actually against this idea. i'd have to come up with some kind of gearbox with two sprag clutches so one turbine could just sputter and die without affecting the other.


have you seen the old Volvo overdrive box? It's just like a gearvendors OD you could totally decouple.

_______________
#3 IROC MAIDEN

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Scotty wrote:
Marc wrote:
Scotty wrote:

Maybe twin smaller turbines would be the way to go. Afterall, two is better than one...LOL

twin would make for more parts but more redundancy. i'm not actually against this idea. i'd have to come up with some kind of gearbox with two sprag clutches so one turbine could just sputter and die without affecting the other.


have you seen the old Volvo overdrive box? It's just like a gearvendors OD you could totally decouple.

Trust me. You don't want to put the OD unit from a M46 on there. You'll kill the cone clutch in 3 seconds.

The DD: '95 Volvo 850 T5R - ButterCup Yellow
The Tow Vehicle: '97 GMC Suburban K2500 6.5TD - Poo Brown
My Racer: '84 Volvo 245GLT - <strike>Jew</strike> CheapAss Black
The iFixit.com Lemon Racer: '92 Volvo 245DL - Svedish White

111

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

scottyd wrote:
Scotty wrote:
Marc wrote:

twin would make for more parts but more redundancy. i'm not actually against this idea. i'd have to come up with some kind of gearbox with two sprag clutches so one turbine could just sputter and die without affecting the other.


have you seen the old Volvo overdrive box? It's just like a gearvendors OD you could totally decouple.

Trust me. You don't want to put the OD unit from a M46 on there. You'll kill the cone clutch in 3 seconds.

it took a bit to find info on it. the box seems a bit expensive and i'm really not convinced it's the right thing for this project. but thanks for the info, i'll keep it in mind for future projects.

what about the cone clutches? why would they wear out that quickly?

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

scottyd wrote:
Scotty wrote:
Marc wrote:

twin would make for more parts but more redundancy. i'm not actually against this idea. i'd have to come up with some kind of gearbox with two sprag clutches so one turbine could just sputter and die without affecting the other.


have you seen the old Volvo overdrive box? It's just like a gearvendors OD you could totally decouple.

Trust me. You don't want to put the OD unit from a M46 on there. You'll kill the cone clutch in 3 seconds.


They have put those as OD units on big ass motorhomes for years... It's amazing how tiny they are and wimpy looking but I was told they can hold 750hp.

_______________
#3 IROC MAIDEN

113 (edited by EriktheAwful 2012-07-06 08:09 AM)

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

I just spoke to my buddy with the two gen sets. He said they were 40HP each and ultra light due to Helo transport. he scraped them both last year as for he they were 400hz gen sets and would only work for radio equipment. he said the cool thing about using a gen set turbine is that they already have the reduction box built in and reduced the normal opperating RPM to 3800 from 28,000.  Now here is the kicker; he said because those gensets are 400HZ they can be found all over the place at military salvage places but they DO NOT advertize them because they are worthless. So you would have to call around.

Now here is the super kicker, They have 120HP and 180HP versions out there.  Hope this info can help.

Now here is the super dupper kicker; he got the gen sets for 50.00 each. that seems like it's in budget. LOL

These are the type turbines I deal with. The turbine-generators produce 110v (or 220v) 3-phase AC at 400Hz because that's what the planes' electrical systems run on. If you're interested, you'd be looking for an A/M32A-60. If you want to search govliquidation by NSN, look for 6115011237589 (I just ran a search and didn't find anything). I believe it's the 180hp turbine.

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Scotty wrote:
scottyd wrote:
Scotty wrote:

have you seen the old Volvo overdrive box? It's just like a gearvendors OD you could totally decouple.

Trust me. You don't want to put the OD unit from a M46 on there. You'll kill the cone clutch in 3 seconds.


They have put those as OD units on big ass motorhomes for years... It's amazing how tiny they are and wimpy looking but I was told they can hold 750hp.

Are we speaking of a gearvendors unit or the unit from the Volvo M46?

The DD: '95 Volvo 850 T5R - ButterCup Yellow
The Tow Vehicle: '97 GMC Suburban K2500 6.5TD - Poo Brown
My Racer: '84 Volvo 245GLT - <strike>Jew</strike> CheapAss Black
The iFixit.com Lemon Racer: '92 Volvo 245DL - Svedish White

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

scottyd wrote:
Scotty wrote:
scottyd wrote:

Trust me. You don't want to put the OD unit from a M46 on there. You'll kill the cone clutch in 3 seconds.


They have put those as OD units on big ass motorhomes for years... It's amazing how tiny they are and wimpy looking but I was told they can hold 750hp.

Are we speaking of a gearvendors unit or the unit from the Volvo M46?


They are practically identical.

_______________
#3 IROC MAIDEN

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Scotty wrote:
scottyd wrote:
Scotty wrote:

They have put those as OD units on big ass motorhomes for years... It's amazing how tiny they are and wimpy looking but I was told they can hold 750hp.

Are we speaking of a gearvendors unit or the unit from the Volvo M46?


They are practically identical.

The idea is. The execution is not.

For example: the GV unit can withstand uber HP as you describe.
The Volvo unit can withstand ~200whp.

The DD: '95 Volvo 850 T5R - ButterCup Yellow
The Tow Vehicle: '97 GMC Suburban K2500 6.5TD - Poo Brown
My Racer: '84 Volvo 245GLT - <strike>Jew</strike> CheapAss Black
The iFixit.com Lemon Racer: '92 Volvo 245DL - Svedish White

117

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

when these kinds of drivetrains hit the junkyards, hybrid electric drivetrains with turbines might start being feasable:

http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/11/ford … pery-guts/

123HP, liquid cooled. and from the estimates out there, about 250lbs for the engine, controller and transmission.

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

scottyd wrote:

The Volvo unit can withstand ~200whp.


Then I think it would be a great coupleing device for a 150-250hp turbine.

_______________
#3 IROC MAIDEN

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

scottyd wrote:
Scotty wrote:
scottyd wrote:

Are we speaking of a gearvendors unit or the unit from the Volvo M46?


They are practically identical.

The idea is. The execution is not.

For example: the GV unit can withstand uber HP as you describe.
The Volvo unit can withstand ~200whp.


ScottyD.... Gear vendors uses the P-type and J-Type Volvo unit same as the Volvo 240.... IDENTICAL. The reason gearvendors charges so much is all the adapter castings to fit different transmission applications.

_______________
#3 IROC MAIDEN

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Volvo= http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Laycock-overdrive-transmission-J-type-Gear-Vendor-Volvo-/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/$(KGrHqVHJC0E-P4zwS5+BPuBVQ7,zQ~~60_12.JPG

Gear Vendors = http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Factory-Rebuilt-P-Type-Gear-Vendors-Overdrive-System-/21/!BrVYWT!BGk~$(KGrHqQH-DIEvB95U86KBLzNW1Tsrw~~_12.JPG

_______________
#3 IROC MAIDEN

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Scotty wrote:
scottyd wrote:

The Volvo unit can withstand ~200whp.


Then I think it would be a great coupleing device for a 150-250hp turbine.

What's the wheeltorque?

How many Volvo OD units have failed on you personally?

Moral of the story: use a GV not a Volvo OD.

The DD: '95 Volvo 850 T5R - ButterCup Yellow
The Tow Vehicle: '97 GMC Suburban K2500 6.5TD - Poo Brown
My Racer: '84 Volvo 245GLT - <strike>Jew</strike> CheapAss Black
The iFixit.com Lemon Racer: '92 Volvo 245DL - Svedish White

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

scottyd wrote:

How many Volvo OD units have failed on you personally?

None, but my thought is the Volvo units don't have the upgraded fluid/cooling capacity.

I can say this for sure tho... I will never personally have a Volvo part fail on me...LOL

_______________
#3 IROC MAIDEN

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Marc wrote:

6)what the heck does 400Hz DC mean? it's DC or AC, how can DC have a frequency?

They use 3 phase rectifier circuits but don't include a capacitor. This creates an 800Hz (400Hz frequency x 2 peaks per cycle) ripple in the DC voltage output at 28 volts. The plug in APUs we use in the hanger are little carts dragging probably 000 wires to convert the 3 phase AC into the DC.

Scotty wrote:

I just spoke to my buddy with the two gen sets. He said they were 40HP each and ultra light due to Helo transport. he scraped them both last year as for he they were 400hz gen sets and would only work for radio equipment. he said the cool thing about using a gen set turbine is that they already have the reduction box built in and reduced the normal opperating RPM to 3800 from 28,000.  Now here is the kicker; he said because those gensets are 400HZ they can be found all over the place at military salvage places but they DO NOT advertize them because they are worthless. So you would have to call around.

Now here is the super kicker, They have 120HP and 180HP versions out there.  Hope this info can help.

Now here is the super dupper kicker; he got the gen sets for 50.00 each. that seems like it's in budget. LOL

I don't know what the problem is. APU output is so dirty that you would need to massage the output anyway. Might as well add in a transformer to step up from the 28 volts the have to 120 and feed that to an inverter to get useable AC out.

BTW, the AC Alternators/Generators use a Constant Speed Drive since the turbine speed varies and that variance affects the frequency. They are little self contained hydraulic systems and some have electronic controls to provide the specific output speed. Maybe you could adapt one of them (hook the electronic controls up to the "gas" pedal) to vary the speed being fed into the transmission while keeping the turbine in the RPM sweet spot.

124

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Ahh, that makes more sense, it's just unrectified smile

you could actually make that work without batteries in the middle if you had the right motor. you just step up the voltage to where you want it then use a bunch of TRIACs to do some wave-chopping to throttle the motor.

as long as it was a brushless A/C motor you would not get premature wear, but it would likely scream and whine at certain power levels.

then you just use the throttle control on the turbine to do what it's made to do, maintain a fixed RPM with a variable load.

the advantage/disadvantage with the simple triac controller is you get to shed the battery weight but you also now need a generator that can furnish peak power instead of average power and you're back to a heavy generator.

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Screaming would be so cool!

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring 6th-PBIR Lemons 9th - Charlotte Chump  CrashnBurn 9th
Sebring 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Trans Fail 16th
Daytona 11th - Sebring 6th - Atlanta Motor Speedway 2nd - Road Atlanta Trans Fail 61st-Road Atlanta 5th
Daytona 13th - Charlotte 9th - Sebring 2nd-Charlotte 25th broken brakes - Road Atlanta 14 10th-Daytona 14  58th- Humid TT 19th Judges' Choice!