Topic: Working on my future Lemons tow vehicle

Finally started to make my dream tow vehicle: It's a 1968 Pontiac Superior Ambulance and I'm dropping in an Isuzu 4BD2-T diesel engine along with the Jatco transmission from the donor 94-95 Isuzu NPR.

I hope to have it moving under its own power by the end of the calendar year and hauling our Lemons ride(s) to some west coast events in 2010.

I've started a blog here: http://www.hubgarage.com/mygarage/Spank226

Feel free to offer me advice and pointers. I've NEVER worked on anything American or diesel before. Yes, I know a Chevy 6.5L or 6.2L would be a more direct swap, but too late for that. I committed to the Isuzu powertrain.

Wish me luck!

http://hubgarage.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/1904536/pontiac_08_detail.jpg

http://hubgarage.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/1904619/100_2728_detail.JPG

http://hubgarage.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/1917261/100_2737_detail.JPG

Re: Working on my future Lemons tow vehicle

That's outstanding.
I wish you the best of luck. cool

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Re: Working on my future Lemons tow vehicle

You are a sick man.  I love it.  Good luck!

Bloomington, IN
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Re: Working on my future Lemons tow vehicle

Ha! Why WOULDN'T you do that? Why not make two?

Re: Working on my future Lemons tow vehicle

I like the cut of your Jib!

Re: Working on my future Lemons tow vehicle

Nothing wrong with the Izusu!!  A 6.2/6.5 would have been more trouble than it' worth.. IMO

Re: Working on my future Lemons tow vehicle

Parked in space #13.  Coincidence?

Lemons South 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Spring 2009 - Fail, Lemons Detroit(ish) 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Fall 2009 - Fail, Lamest Day 2009 - Fail, Miami 2010 (Chump) - 2nd!, Sebring 2010 (Chump) - Fail, Cuba 2010 - Crew Chief, Roebling 2011 (Chump) - 8th!, Sebring 2011(Chump) - 19th!

Re: Working on my future Lemons tow vehicle

Ohhhh, a man after my own heart with a 60's Pontiac ambulance.

My rust bucket:

http://gatetek.com/consort/P1020402.JPG

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Re: Working on my future Lemons tow vehicle

http://jalopnik.com/cars/assets/resources/2007/10/Moparbulance.jpg

Belvedere Adrian, captain of the very dignified Faster Farms Plymouth Belvedere team, has this Christine-style '58 Plymouth Ambulance in his stable of Hell Projects.

10 (edited by Spank 2009-10-15 10:21 PM)

Re: Working on my future Lemons tow vehicle

Loren wrote:

Parked in space #13.  Coincidence?

Yea, those were the pics I got to see when I bought the thing .Bought it from those pics, only.

dculberson wrote:

Ohhhh, a man after my own heart with a 60's Pontiac ambulance.

My rust bucket:

http://gatetek.com/consort/P1020402.JPG

Sweet! I like the over under headlamps a lot.

I really don't know a damned thing about American cars. I'm pretty much a 1-make guy and even that is self-taught and quite half-arsed.

I'm still just taking measurements and am pretty sure I'm going to have some clearance issues with that stock pontiac power steering unit, the cross linkage for the steering, and maybe even the power brake booster on the firewall. I'm sure there are people out there who know what alternate linkage or power steering units I could consider, but I'm going to be flying more and more blind as I get into this deeper and deeper.

Hoping I can relocate the cube box from the Isuzu this weekend while the truck still moves and then get the engine/tranny in the days after. Getting the engine hanging in the bay will make things more clear.

Re: Working on my future Lemons tow vehicle

Spank wrote:

Yea, those were the pics I got to see when I bought the thing. Bought it from those pics, only.

Hey, I recognize that car! It was right down the road from me.

I was checking it out when I had some machine work done by the Harley guy in the same complex.  My first thought was Lemons, but that's been done. Then I thought camper, but that was met with angry-spouse. Looks like you found a way to incorporate all three!

Glad to see it went to a good home, and I think your swap is cool as hell. But the Isuzu motor got me thinking about my Jeepney dream again...

Oh the memories.

http://wewenew.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/yellow-jeepney1.jpg

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Re: Working on my future Lemons tow vehicle

Spank wrote:

Sweet! I like the over under headlamps a lot.

Stacked headlights are, like, my totally f'in favorite.



Spank wrote:

I really don't know a damned thing about American cars. I'm pretty much a 1-make guy and even that is self-taught and quite half-arsed.

I'm still just taking measurements and am pretty sure I'm going to have some clearance issues with that stock pontiac power steering unit, the cross linkage for the steering, and maybe even the power brake booster on the firewall.

Especially with the drivetrain going away, there's not a whole lot that will be American other than a bunch of iron and the suspension/steering.  The suspension on these things is as straighforward as you can get: two a-arms, a coil spring, and a shock at each corner.  The difficulty comes in when you realize that everything is upsized about 4x compared to what you're (probably) used to and takes a ton of force to even budge.  Ask me about replacing my front suspension bushings.  On second though, don't.  I think I have PTSD from that one.

Once you get the Pontiac engine out, and take measurements, you'll probably find you have what might be gently understated as "a lot of room."  Those engine bays are cavernous.  A brake booster is a brake booster, and assuming you're doing brake upgrades (disc swap?) you'll probably want a different one anyway.  There are low profile units available made for engine swaps but they're big bucks.  I bet you could find something off a newer car that will work and is smaller.

Is that recirculating ball steering like mine?  There are a billion other cars that use the same setup so I'm sure there's a swap out there if you need it.  I don't know how much cutting and welding you want to get into, but now's your chance to get really good at it!

Are you going the low-dollar route or is this going to be a polished ride?  I can't wait to see it come to fruition either way.  You'll be causing some gnashing of teeth with the PCS.  (Professional Car Society - they don't like customizing these.  They like restoring them.)

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Re: Working on my future Lemons tow vehicle

Sparky: Small world!

dculberson: I started with a 51 Cadillac ambulance but it was original and running. I've been on the PCS before and, well, I don't go there anymore. I appreciate the desire to restore cars, but I'm not there yet. So I sold the Caddy to someone who wanted to keep it original and I got this Pontiac-- without a drivetrain-- for 1/10th the price so there's less chance I'll be smothered in my sleep by a pontiac or pro car purist.

I'm definitely going low-dollar, though. Ultra low dollar if possible. Welding gas is expensive, too, so I'll hope to do as little of that as possible ;o)

Re: Working on my future Lemons tow vehicle

more progress today! Likely the last bit of progress I'll make this month, though. I'll do what I can when I can, though.

http://hubgarage.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/1947514/100_2778_detail.JPG
http://hubgarage.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/1947498/100_2782_detail.JPG

http://hubgarage.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/1947470/100_2794_detail.JPG

Re: Working on my future Lemons tow vehicle

"Sparky" Pete wrote:

the Isuzu motor got me thinking about my Jeepney dream again...

Oh the memories.

Why doesn't someone make a Jeepney out of their E30?

Re: Working on my future Lemons tow vehicle

That rig is so full of awesome. Very cool tow rig.

Re: Working on my future Lemons tow vehicle

How about a hydro boost instead of vacuum assist , save room

It Ain't My Fault

Re: Working on my future Lemons tow vehicle

Very cool swap...I've been thinking about this for my 97 F-150...anybody try it with a  1/2 ton?

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....

Re: Working on my future Lemons tow vehicle

I'll have to look up what you're talking about, woodstock. I pretty green when it comes to this stuff.

I'm having clearance issues still and it's pretty clear that the frame crossmember is gong to have to be cut and modified some. big problem with that, besides the whole cutting and welding part, is the lower suspension arms are attached to that crossmember. It would be great if I could just cut a big ol' U into the frame and box it out, but not sure if that's asking for trouble. As a compromise, I'm thinking I can just cut out the top half of the crossmember and then plate it to complete the box and also see what I could add underneath of it.

Gotta admit, though, I'm kinda scared to start cutting the frame. Need to use some of th leftover roll cage tubing from the Mini to brace it before I cut, I reckon.

http://hubgarage.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/1950513/100_2798_detail.JPG
and it needs to get closer to matching up with THIS:

http://hubgarage.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/1950521/100_2796_detail.JPG

Re: Working on my future Lemons tow vehicle

chop out the firewall and move it back a few inches? you could put the whole engine behind that crossmember and move it lower in the chassis... it would be like...balancing it and stuff. besides, I'm sure the passenger compartment has a few FEET to spare, lol

Re: Working on my future Lemons tow vehicle

The drivers compartment in most procars is actually pretty tight- to make more space you need to hack out the divider and move THAT back, then move all the driver compartment stuff back... looks like you're in for a lot of chopping!

Re: the hydro boost suggestion- since Diesels don't make the same amount of vacuum that gas engines do, the brake booster systems are sometimes run off the power steering pump (hydraulic) instead of the typical vacuum system.  I know this was the case on my old Chevy 6.2 Diesel truck. If you stick with the stock booster, you'll probably need a vacuum pump on the engine.

I'd be really leery of cutting the front crossmember on a car that's already pushing design weight AND going to be used for towing AND (I would guess) carrying a drivetrain combo heavier than the original unit. You're looking at a LOT of kinetic energy that has to be kept under control.

Looks like you already "clearanced" the steering linkage a bit, eh?

That's a heck of a project, hope it works out for you!

Re: Working on my future Lemons tow vehicle

Thanks for the post, unknownroad-- Yea, the front seat room is actually pretty tight. Don't plan on doing anything about that or intruding much into it if I can help it.

I also don't know how structural the firewall is and if I can get away with cutting and boxing it some while the car is fully laden (IE windscreen, dash, and doors are all impacting it some, I'd imagine).


Brakes: Since there was an engine fire, I'm not going to expect to use the existing brake master/booster. If I'm going to replace it, I'll go ahead and look for something that's hydraulic like you suggest-- maybe even the one out of the truck... Thanks for that, btw: I wouldn't have known/thought of that issue with the vacuum.

I'm leery of cutting it, too, but I will at least be nothing it a bit to give clearance for the edge of the oil pan.

After spending time looking at it some more (since I can't work on it for another week) I think what I need to do is raise the body some on the rails-- maybe put an additional 2" or so of spacer material in there where it's already got 2" of rubber in there... I think I can get away with it aesthetically since the frame would look a lot like an extension of the lower side valance-- this will allow me to keep the engine higher in the engine bay and allow the hood to close without mods, allow me to have the tranny up higher with less support intrusion into the footwell (the tranny support that I'll likely take from the truck goes above the tranny and will require me to box the rear part of the footwell 4" or so I'm estimating.

Weight: 721 lbs dry for the engine.

RE: steering linkage-- I just popped the joints so that crosspiece isn't in the way while I'm checking out the other clearance issues.

To recap, it looks like I'm 1) raising the body some on the frame rails 2) opening up the trans tunnel and boxing the rear portion of the passenger's footwell 3) boxing the firewall a couple of inches 4) modifying the oil pan 5) notching, boxing, and triangulating the crossmember, 6) figuring out the brake and steering thing(s)

Folks, please feel very welcome to comment and offer suggestions-- it's not like I've ever done this or anything like this before...

Re: Working on my future Lemons tow vehicle

Offsetting the engine to the right a little or angling it a little has been done...

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....

Re: Working on my future Lemons tow vehicle

Spank wrote:

I also don't know how structural the firewall is and if I can get away with cutting and boxing it some while the car is fully laden (IE windscreen, dash, and doors are all impacting it some, I'd imagine).

I'd be really, REALLY careful with that windshield. Looking at it, it appears to be the commercial chassis windshield (see how much higher it is than the door windows?), and those are extremely hard to come by, or at least they were a few years ago when I was really caught up in the procar scene. You might be able to get away with plasma-cutting and welding on the firewall while it's in, but I wouldn't use any kind of abrasive cutter or do any higher up on the firewall. The rubber and glass are probably both brittle by now.

I think the body lift idea is a good one. I don't really see any other way to get that transmission under it. One thing to consider, tho- it's my understanding that Superior mostly used fiberglass to construct the rear section of their cars. If that's the case with this one, you'll need to be super-careful about lifting it evenly to avoid torquing the body and cracking hell out of it. It will also mean that the firewall is very structural, and you'll probably want to remove the windshield before lifting the body, just in case.