Re: Chronicles of a Lemons Daytona

Part 20 - Approaching the breaking point.

This race tested me in a big way. I'm used to last minute thrashing, but not to this extent. And it's all thanks to an engine block.

A few weeks ago I finally broke down the engine from October and dropped it off to be cleaned and decked if necessary. I wouldn't have even bothered with decking, except it was fairly evident that water was getting into cylinders 2 and 3 during october. So I left it with an old school shop a mile from my house. Not 3 minutes after I leave I get a call to come back. When I walked back in they said "what you've got here is a big piece of junk." Turns out the block had cracks from the water jackets and oil ports into the head bolt holes in at least 4 locations. Awesome.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-GBNE5LeXmk8/VTFmFw4OCtI/AAAAAAAAPkA/B9mMuvuon70/w1116-h628-no/IMG_20150417_115920%253Anopm%253A.jpg

The short version of the story is this. I tore apart my spare engine that day and dropped it back off. It wasn't in great shape. Out of flat and the cylinders were bad. And their guy was out for a week. They promised me I'd have it tuesday night before the race. I dropped off two heads to another shop to have decked as well and a very basic valve job done. One head turned out to have dropped valve guides (yay more paperweights). But I got the head on monday and the block tuesday.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-brqmKMg2R94/VUkxxlWe_cI/AAAAAAAAPxY/nhlCE5vQ6SA/w1116-h628-no/20150505_170955.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-iWAo7WIRKT0/VUgLTRKhZAI/AAAAAAAAPw8/dOchBlfxtZI/w1116-h628-no/20150504_201358.jpg

Tuesday night Dad came up to help and together we built the engine, installed it, and got a bunch of electrical work done. At midnight we called it a night and went to catch some sleep. At 6am wednesday morning I sat bolt upright in a panic and realized I had installed the main caps from the junk engine into the new block. Son of a Bitch. So by the time Dad got back up to Nashua I had pulled the engine, swapped the caps, and was ready to drop it back in. We managed to get the engine bay about 60% by the time we needed to stop and pack.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-73rAW3y0Wn8/VUmVF1WotlI/AAAAAAAAPxo/MqIduzadygc/w1116-h628-no/20150506_001341.jpg

Thursday we made the long drive down to the track, purposely getting there early so we'd miss traffic. Once we were let in we set up camp next to 3PM and kept wrenching on the car. We called it quits around 10pm with the engine bay about 90%. Friday we started at 7:30. After buying some last minute parts we set to work finishing the car.

First we found the radiator to be leaking. Awesome. Napa could have one by 3:30. Around 2pm everything was installed and the wiring was finished so we went to hook the car up and try to start it. But when I went to connect the ground it almost welded itself to the battery terminal. What the hell. Turns out the heat shield we put on the starter cables was conductive and shorting the positive cable to the block. Yay. We adjusted it's position, taped off all the connections, and re-installed. Touch the negative cable again and it still tries to short. An hour of searching later we find one fuse that when pulled stops the problem. Ok, leave it out, we'll find the issue later.

Flipping the fuel pump switch brings the sweet sound of silence. What the hell now. Fuel pump is dead. Apparently when I stored it dry some condensation formed inside and rusted. Amazing. No stores in the area carry walbro pumps and no one has a spare (That they know of). This is where i owe a huge thank you to a team I can't remember. They tell me that in their BMW they've used an inline pump from a 1989 Ford E350 Econoline Van, and it's mostly the same form factor. Auto Zone has one in stock for $80. It even has threaded ends on one side that the -8AN fitting we had been using will just thread on to.

Finally with a new radiator and fuel pump we hit the engine start buttons and listened to the reassuring sound of a continuously cranking engine. Knowing the timing was nowhere near right I started spinning the distributor until the engine coughed to life and finally settled into a normal idle (I got the timing to within 2 degrees of right just by ear. I was proud). That first firing happened at 7pm. We kept working until 10 getting all the little details sorted out.

Saturday morning we ran the car through tech only to find our brake lights now didn't work. Amazing. With the green fast approaching I managed to bypass the stock wiring and direct power them off an unused switch on my master switch panel (the Hopes and Dreams switch).

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-xsMj19hwOSs/VVH4nC0xmfI/AAAAAAAAP1g/A6xVBlg3Cgc/w1116-h744-no/11187434_10152847490473091_4038887820806963018_o.jpg

I should take a moment to explain my state of mind as I geared up and headed towards the pit entrance. Since I bought the car in 2011 I've never once considered giving up on the daytona, until this race. The amount of work required to get the car running was huge. I left most of it out of this recap for sheer length of the post. So when I drove on track and saw the boost gauge showing a solid zero even while the turbo was audibly spooling, I was ready to just be done. At one point I thought I heard knocking from the engine and was perfectly ok with the car just being dead. I think I even had a very brief fantasy about the car catching fire and watching it burn.

Thankfully a few laps in I remembered why I do this stuff. Yes the car had no boost. Yes it was running like crap. yes it was breaking up under load and wouldn't rev past 4k without massive backfires. But god damn it I was racing a car that I had built, and it's just a hilarious car to drive. I think it all clicked when I threw the car into the chicane without braking and put 20 yards on the BMW that was trying to pass me and wasn't brave enough to enter at the same speed. For all the heartache the car gives me, once it's on track it reminds me what fun is. I spent the rest of my 3.5 hour stint giggling as I pushed the car as fast as it would allow in it's ill running state.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/--o6TkOieKKE/VVH4mTNRm_I/AAAAAAAAP1c/I4QJdDcI2lI/w1116-h744-no/10985490_10152847490943091_1053982410130356174_o.jpg

Now we should talk about stepping on our toes. We came in a lot this race. For the first time ever I got a pass under yellow flag. I was watching two cars ahead of me. One was a very slow car (slower than even me!), and the second was a BMW that had been trying to decide if they were going to pass the slow car for a couple corners. I finally grew impatient and went by them both, only to look in my rearview and see the flagger that had a yellow up and I missed. Stupid. I cursed at myself and went right to the penalty box. They let me back out, but two laps later the black flag finally waved for me and I came back in. Turns out they just hadn't relayed the self report back to the flagger in time. No harm, back to racing.

Our second driver went out, and over two hours self reported a couple times for 2 wheels off. No complaints from me there, he's at least aware of his mistakes. On the last self report he makes a comment that he might need a driver change because he's really hot. I said ok, give me a warning if he does so we can get someone suited up. Maybe 15 minutes later I see him stumbling back to our pit area. He manages to say "I couldn't do it anymore, can't feel my legs, got confused where our pit area is, and i'm not sure where i left the car." It would have been funnier that he lost my racecar if he was not clearly in a bad way. I yelled for dad to suit up, found the car, got dad in and out on track, and then made sure my driver cooled off and drank a lot of water/Gatorade.

Some background here. We had the heat running in the car because we thought we were having cooling issues. Turns out we never had the radiator fan wired up (stupid). It was very hot in the car. I felt ok during my stint other than very sweaty, but this driver did not. Heat exhaustion is not something to shrug off. He said that all of a sudden he just forgot how the track went. Thankfully he had the sense left to get off the track immediately. We'll never run the heat again without ducting out a back window, it's not worth the risk to our drivers.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-EIxj2LSHbS0/VVH4mrp0CZI/AAAAAAAAP1Y/FI15rpUl6nI/w1116-h744-no/10699710_10152847490808091_5378209009723087184_o.jpg

Saturday night we fixed our boost leak (intercooler pipe fell off), checked the car over, and then went back to trying to be useful to other teams who were still fighting with broken cars. Sunday we finally had a car that would move at a decent speed again. With 6psi the car actually can sit mid-pack. During my final hour I was able to enter the straight at 85, and be touching 100 by the start/finish line before the engine would break up completely and force me to coast.

We did step on ourselves a few more times. Dad ran clean. Our other driver did a few self reports, and then came in with the exhaust hanging. 5 minutes and he was back out. He also had a small tangle with the Orange RX7. Thankfully no major harm to either car, just cosmetics.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-uJrVmu7HBVA/VVEtkoIts7I/AAAAAAAAP0M/dXj11Es3H9U/w1116-h628-no/20150511_175241.jpg

Somehow during all this we'd managed to bounce between second and third in class all weekend. Sputnik had a decent 10 lap lead over us until they got told to park until they were 2 laps down. Well this is interesting. Unfortunately we did a driver change soon after they went back out. They held a 2 lap lead over us, and the subaru outback was now 1 lap up on us for second. I just kept ignoring the standings. I looked before I jumped in for the final hour and saw that we had overtaken the outback, by only a couple laps, and we were a few down on Sputnik. No way I could catch Sputnik, they were running faster than us, but I could hold second.

With boost the car was now even more hilarious. It had somehow learned to torque steer. A new trick. The brakes were scary, and I was fighting what I thought fade (and turned out to be one of the vacuum booster caps falling off) my whole last hour. But after 10 races I know how to throw that car thought corners. I think I threw a few cars for a loop when they tried to pass on a corner and I just held the inside right with them. I found Sputnik and hung behind them for a while. We finished in second, and couldn't ask for a more deserving team to beat us. Well done to sputnik for running such a consistent fast race. We managed second in class 8 laps down on them.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-oWvnSi06ERQ/VVH4mauUznI/AAAAAAAAP1s/8zPvGRUDbHs/w1116-h744-no/11187275_10152847490973091_7416601606959273054_o.jpg

That last hour in the car was one of the most fun I've ever had. The car was just so hilariously bad, but I was managing to make the best of it. This is why I do Lemons. This is why I'll always have a C-Class car. Yes I want a second car that will probably land in A-Class (even if we don't have the drivers to compliment it), but it's just so much more rewarding to make it green to checked in a car that should by all rights be dead. The daytona is the most entertaining car I've ever driven, and that's surpassing cars like the V10 R8, Jag F-types, Lotus, and others. The daytona is like a family member at this point, and I've never driven it without a huge smile on my face.

But this brings to light a sad thought. The daytona really is dying. It has some structural concerns. Nothing I can't reinforce to get through the year safely, but after seeing 3PM's triumph try to separate it's rear end from the front, I'm being forced to think seriously about where to go. I think I'm going to have to retire the car after this October. I may seriously cry when I'm forced to scrap the shell. But the question is now open. What body desperately needs a Chrysler 2.2 Turbo Engine as it's power plant?

I have some thoughts, and they make me happy.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Abandoned E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: Chronicles of a Lemons Daytona

It was great to see you guys running strong(ish) and finish a race without major trouble.   you've earned it.

The Roto-Racer '89 Merkur:  If it ain't rusting, It ain't racing.

'14 Real Hoopties of NJ: Judges Choice

Re: Chronicles of a Lemons Daytona

Wow, great write up!  Enjoyed it more than the Jalopnik one...

TheEngineer wrote:

Now we should talk about stepping on our toes. We came in a lot this race. For the first time ever I got a pass under yellow flag. I was watching two cars ahead of me. One was a very slow car (slower than even me!), and the second was a BMW that had been trying to decide if they were going to pass the slow car for a couple corners. I finally grew impatient and went by them both, only to look in my rearview and see the flagger that had a yellow up and I missed. Stupid. I cursed at myself and went right to the penalty box. They let me back out, but two laps later the black flag finally waved for me and I came back in. Turns out they just hadn't relayed the self report back to the flagger in time. No harm, back to racing.

The exact same thing happened to us, except for two wheels off, not passing under yellow.  Self reported immediately, went back out, only to be black flagged for the same incident.  Really irritating when you're trying to put laps on the board and gave us two strikes for one self reported incident which was non-detrimental to anyone except us.

#94 Team Zima 1986 BMW E30

Re: Chronicles of a Lemons Daytona

The Daytona must live on! I had no idea that car was with this team for some reason until after I got out of the car. I had a lot of fun going back and forth with you guys (and this was, in fact, the car that forced me to start driving more aggressively after being a total pansy for most of my stint--some speak of boat rage, but I got Daytona rage).

As for the car, look south? Surely there's a Daytona body without a lot of rust to be had. It's somewhere. Probably up on cinder blocks in someone's yard outside Shreveport. The 944's been a Texas and California car all its life, and besides one crack in the pan under the seat that had to be reinforced (that part of the pan is always Swiss cheese on those dumb cars), that sucker is solid, and doesn't give us a lot of rust-related woe.

Re: Chronicles of a Lemons Daytona

The daytona will live on in part. I don't want another Chrysler G-body. The daytona has it's legacy, and if we can get a class win I'll be ok with leaving it at that. The car has earned an IOE, and organizer's choice, and two I got Screwed, it's quite a story.

I have a good idea of what I want to replace it. It's in the Chrysler family. It's RWD. And by god I will make the 2.2 turbo engine sit in it's engine bay. Long live the 2.2 turbo.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Abandoned E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: Chronicles of a Lemons Daytona

Go for the Maserati TC!  Same 2.2 Turbo!

-mike

Re: Chronicles of a Lemons Daytona

TheEngineer wrote:

The daytona will live on in part. I don't want another Chrysler G-body. The daytona has it's legacy, and if we can get a class win I'll be ok with leaving it at that. The car has earned an IOE, and organizer's choice, and two I got Screwed, it's quite a story.

I have a good idea of what I want to replace it. It's in the Chrysler family. It's RWD. And by god I will make the 2.2 turbo engine sit in it's engine bay. Long live the 2.2 turbo.

Manny and I, aka Team Super GRover, were the ones that told you about the fuel pump. I can't believe I still had that part list on my phone and Manny remembered that we used something similar. I am glad to hear it worked out for you.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: Chronicles of a Lemons Daytona

chaase wrote:

Manny and I, aka Team Super GRover, were the ones that told you about the fuel pump. I can't believe I still had that part list on my phone and Manny remembered that we used something similar. I am glad to hear it worked out for you.

An enormous thank you for that. I was so lost in get the car done mode that I completely forgot who told me not 5 minutes after I confirmed the store had one. It couldn't have worked better.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Abandoned E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: Chronicles of a Lemons Daytona

TheEngineer wrote:
chaase wrote:

Manny and I, aka Team Super GRover, were the ones that told you about the fuel pump. I can't believe I still had that part list on my phone and Manny remembered that we used something similar. I am glad to hear it worked out for you.

An enormous thank you for that. I was so lost in get the car done mode that I completely forgot who told me not 5 minutes after I confirmed the store had one. It couldn't have worked better.

No problem. It is what we do in Lemons. Everyone needs help every now and again. We needed to borrow a coil from one team and extra brake fluid from our neighbors.  Just pay it forward like a good Lemons team should.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: Chronicles of a Lemons Daytona

Is there even any question about what should come next?

http://oldcarbrochures.org/var/resizes/NA/Chrysler_and_Imperial/1990-Chrysler/1990-Chrysler-TC-Brochure/1990%20Chrysler%20TC-02.jpg?m=1320687798

161 (edited by fiasco 2015-05-12 09:42 AM)

Re: Chronicles of a Lemons Daytona

Judge Phil wrote:

Is there even any question about what should come next?

http://oldcarbrochures.org/var/resizes/NA/Chrysler_and_Imperial/1990-Chrysler/1990-Chrysler-TC-Brochure/1990%20Chrysler%20TC-02.jpg?m=1320687798

There was a red one with a stick at Holland Auto Parts in Billerica, MA, a few years ago...they aren't the most disciplined about getting stuff to The Crusher.

https://lemonsfiasco.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/tcmaser.jpg

https://lemonsfiasco.wordpress.com/2012 … -part-two/

Re: Chronicles of a Lemons Daytona

Nah, I'll let someone else have the glory of a TC. Unless someone comes up with a better idea I like the one in my head. Still a Chrysler, and I'll swap in a 2.2T from the daytona. Should be a C-Class car still.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Abandoned E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: Chronicles of a Lemons Daytona

TheEngineer wrote:

Nah, I'll let someone else have the glory of a TC. Unless someone comes up with a better idea I like the one in my head. Still a Chrysler, and I'll swap in a 2.2T from the daytona. Should be a C-Class car still.

Make the K-car rear wheel drive?  Great idea!

Re: Chronicles of a Lemons Daytona

Amazingly, Mopar offered a RWD conversion kit for the daytona that let you throw in a 440 V8. Impossible to find these days.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Abandoned E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: Chronicles of a Lemons Daytona

How about doing a Conquest TSi?   RWD  turbo  lots of  future bad decisions or join the dark side and run a BMW.  Every engine under the sun nearly fits in the engine bay. 

I have seen v12's and fords and LSx's in there a few Supra engines heck even some Mitsubushi jobs.

Re: Chronicles of a Lemons Daytona

Lebaron with a Seinfeld "John Voight's Car" theme

Planet Express
"IOE" "C Win" 4834.701 Race Miles and counting
Toyocedes
"Least Southern Pickup Truck" "IOE" "C win" "C win (again?)"

167

Re: Chronicles of a Lemons Daytona

chaase wrote:
TheEngineer wrote:
chaase wrote:

Manny and I, aka Team Super GRover, were the ones that told you about the fuel pump. I can't believe I still had that part list on my phone and Manny remembered that we used something similar. I am glad to hear it worked out for you.

An enormous thank you for that. I was so lost in get the car done mode that I completely forgot who told me not 5 minutes after I confirmed the store had one. It couldn't have worked better.

No problem. It is what we do in Lemons. Everyone needs help every now and again. We needed to borrow a coil from one team and extra brake fluid from our neighbors.  Just pay it forward like a good Lemons team should.

He totally did by the end of Saturday, thanks to the fuel pump!  The fuel pump in our civic died (Bosch 044 external), and the only replacement we could find in the paddock was a Walbro.  Because the Daytone had the econoline fuel pump, Chris gave us the fitting he had that fit our fuel setup perfectly, and got the civic back running again in no time.  Thanks again Chris!

Chris from 3 Pedal Mafia

Re: Chronicles of a Lemons Daytona

Red Lemons Racing wrote:

How about doing a Conquest TSi?   RWD  turbo  lots of  future bad decisions or join the dark side and run a BMW.  Every engine under the sun nearly fits in the engine bay. 

I have seen v12's and fords and LSx's in there a few Supra engines heck even some Mitsubushi jobs.

This idea has crossed my mind.


the 2.2 won't go in a BMW, but I have not eliminated BMWs from future cars.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Abandoned E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: Chronicles of a Lemons Daytona

What was the final answer with the Boat? I saw it hit the track late sunday.
There was a lot of hair pulling when I stopped by as the Engine would crank no Start.

Manny.

Re: Chronicles of a Lemons Daytona

What was the final answer with the Boat? I saw it hit the track late sunday.
There was a lot of hair pulling when I stopped by as the Engine would crank no Start.

Manny.

Re: Chronicles of a Lemons Daytona

Sonic wrote:

He totally did by the end of Saturday, thanks to the fuel pump!  The fuel pump in our civic died (Bosch 044 external), and the only replacement we could find in the paddock was a Walbro.  Because the Daytone had the econoline fuel pump, Chris gave us the fitting he had that fit our fuel setup perfectly, and got the civic back running again in no time.  Thanks again Chris!

Awesome!

A nice little chain reaction and all over a bad fuel pump.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

172

Re: Chronicles of a Lemons Daytona

Mkotzias wrote:

What was the final answer with the Boat? I saw it hit the track late sunday.
There was a lot of hair pulling when I stopped by as the Engine would crank no Start.

Manny.

Despite having two guys who are really good at all things Chevy working on it, it barely ran, and we fried the starter while playing with it setting the timing a million different ways.  We dragged it behind a truck to get it going, and it ran like ass no matter what we did.  We think the replacement junkyard motor was just crappy, as we used all of our known good accessories, manifolds, distributor, etc.   We are currently arguing with the junkyard about the "warranty" and pulling that motor the weekend.   The future fate of the boat is uncertain at this time, and at the very least it will get a "break" for 2 races as we have to debut our Citroén and Mercedes.

Chris from 3 Pedal Mafia

Re: Chronicles of a Lemons Daytona

I hate to say things like this, but maybe it's time to get something less terrible than a Chrysler 2.2/2.5 engine. That Daytona is one of the worst cars in Lemons history. Which was cool at first, but now it's just depressing.

Re: Chronicles of a Lemons Daytona

Judge Phil wrote:

I hate to say things like this, but maybe it's time to get something less terrible than a Chrysler 2.2/2.5 engine. That Daytona is one of the worst cars in Lemons history. Which was cool at first, but now it's just depressing.

The great Judge Phil telling someone to get a less crappy car. Now I have heard everything.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: Chronicles of a Lemons Daytona

chaase wrote:
Judge Phil wrote:

I hate to say things like this, but maybe it's time to get something less terrible than a Chrysler 2.2/2.5 engine. That Daytona is one of the worst cars in Lemons history. Which was cool at first, but now it's just depressing.

The great Judge Phil telling someone to get a less crappy car. Now I have heard everything.


They say his heart grew 3 sizes that day.

The Roto-Racer '89 Merkur:  If it ain't rusting, It ain't racing.

'14 Real Hoopties of NJ: Judges Choice