1 (edited by Evil Genius 2011-01-25 09:09 PM)

Topic: Secrets of the Inner Circle, or how to do well at Lemons

Ha, made you look...     


        First a disclaimer, the following is all my opinion, nothing more, I am a tech inspector and a cage builder, and I work for Lemons.  but what you are about to read is my opinion on how to build a Lemons car that isn't a cheater, may get you accepted to the show and has a better than even chance of finishing in the top 10...  Now if you do all I advise and you don't finish in the top 10, clearly, you've not done something right, don't blame me.

      Why am I arrogant enough to think that you even care what I have to say? Well, lets just go with that, I'm arrogant, deal with it.   Oh, and I build race cars for a living and have won a Lemons race.  As an inspector I see how cars are built and prepped and can correlate what I see with finishing order, Its not rocket science.   The other tech inspectors, judges and management are very good at predicting cars that will survive and do well.  Some of that wisdom is here..

        There are 4 simple things you have to do, after you get the car,  to be a top finisher.   

        But wait, assuming you haven't already bought or been given that E-30, lets talk about car selection.
        Pick a car you can work on, isn't too complex and is interesting, your chances of getting accepted go up if you bring something weird, gotta Borgward Isabella in your back 40? perfect, your uncle have a thing for Renault Dauphines? Great, get him to sell you a rusty one for $1.00, find a Porsche 928 for $250, well, good luck with that...   another E-30, Civic, Miata, Integra, Prelude, RX-7, Supra, Camaro or Mustang, you'd better have a good theme.  Themes involving scantily clad  women/men/robots (your preference) are good, clever names, good. Tiger Woods getting pummeled on the top of you car, fantastic. The starship Enterprise on your car and costumes to match, go ahead, race a Miata.  Cool ghetto-charger sticking through the hood, good.    Some cars will make the judges and the other competitors think you're cheating just because of what it is. Think:E-30, Mustang, Miata, RX, SER, 944, Integra or any car with a lumpy-sounding V-8, avoid them like the plague. 

     So, now you've chosen and acquired your car for under $250 (you have to have something left to work with)  its off to work we go.  What could possibly go wrong?

My 4 simple things:

     1.  Make it reliable
     
     2.  Make it light

     3.  Make it handle

     4.  Don' t be a Dick

  That's it, are you done yet?   
   
     We'll take these one at a time

     1. Reliability.   Don't add or subtract anything in a way that compromises reliability. Your car is Japanese, don't mess with the wiring, leave most, if not all of it in, If its British, rip it all out and make your own harness, stay away from wheel spacers, wrong offset wheels, high hp motors. Don't change something just because you can. Add coolers for every fluid, but do it well, a poorly installed cooler will likely leak or even restrict flow. Here is a paradox, coolers should add reliability by keeping the car cooler, but they add complexity and weight, if you aren't a good wrench, and can't do the job, don't.   Make sure the radiator is cleaned out, both inside and outside (clean the crap out of the fins)  Add a small mesh screen to protect the radiator and coolers, rocks thrown up from other cars will easily pop a hole into a radiator.  Clean everything up, use zip ties, make sure that nothing can rub against a rotating part.  Seal off and insulate every exposed, unused wire...   The list is endless, you don't have any money to work with and you run into worn out hoses, wires and belts, remember beer isn't in the budget and have fun.
    I consider good brakes part of reliability.  Buy the BEST possible pads you can find, upgrade the brakes if you can, use 600+ degree Dot 4 brake fluid and change the hoses on any car over 10 years old, use old (but still good) OEM rotors instead of brand new cheapies, they have been heat treated and normalized over the past 20 years and are unlikely to crack like offshore $12.99 rotors will.  Rebuild or replace your calipers. 20 year old seals tend to fail when the brake fluid hits 400 degrees for the the first time.
    Clean up the engine compartment, degrease everything, fix the oil leaks. At WOT  racing conditions your engine gets very hot and oil fires are not fun.  Check and repack or replace your wheel bearings, especially the fronts.

     2. Add Lightness.    Simple, take out EVERYTHING you don't need for a Lemons race.   Remove insulation, dashboards(see above about reliability first) sound deadening, sunroofs, windows, AC equipment..  Send it all packing, but be careful about the wiring, don't screw it up.    Again, this is simple, get the crap out of your crap-box, you'll be happy you did.  Be careful here: you may need wipers, washers and lights.   

     3.   Handling.    Yep, they have corners in these races, quite a few.    This is where you spend your other $250.  Get the car low, sell your soul for negative camber, get good shocks, buy the right tires (I'll not wade into that debate)  Talk to the guys that race cars like yours, what do they do?   Yeah, I know that there is no money for camber plates and adjustable shocks, but do the best you can. rebuild your old shocks, very cheap.  Keep in mind, the judges know about urethane bushings and expensive suspension mods in general, and they will nail you with penalty laps if you cheat on the $ here.. But there are ways to get the camber and damping you need for almost free, just be prepared to spend a lot of time on it.   Be careful about massive or un-balanced swaybars, they can really screw up your handling, bigger isn't always better. 

     4.   Don't,  just don't, be a dick.     The fastest way to long penalties, getting cursed, not getting the parts you need is to be a dick to the organizers and other competitors.  You think that the inspector is being tough, just ask how to fix the problem, go fix it and come back, don't argue. The Judges don't like your 17-way adjustable Ohlins shocks? smile and take your penalty like a man. You hate the guy next to you because his umpteen-million dollar toter-home stacker trailer is blocking out the sun, remember he probably has a full 5 axis CNC mill in there that can make you a new billet control arm for your Om617 powered Spitfire, so be nice. You think the guy in front of you is blocking, don't dive bomb him, make contact and end up listening to bad techno for an hour, wait, think about it and make a better pass, live to fight another day.  Come into the penalty box, swearing and claiming that you are being picked on that you are the best driver since Jimmy Clark.. while the cone you hit is still stuck under your car..   uh, nope, major dickness, huge penalty...  You get the idea,   'nuff said.

    4.1  Don't let a dick be on your team.. Got a hothead brother-in-law that thinks he can race because he loves Grand Turismo?  Make excuses and go for the meek geek IT guy at work who is good at saying sorry, you'll be happy you did.


Notice that I've said nothing about adding power, hell, I'd almost advocate limiting power for better reliability...  No, wait, I love powerful cars, that isn't true. I would never turn down the power, but, power isn't required to win the race.       Turning up the boost breaks things, takes an old crapbox beyond its design parameters and in the end will cost you the race.   Keep the car circulating, don't spend too much time in the pits and you'll do well.....

    If you haven't started to build a car yet, go to a race and pay attention. Watch the Judges during the BS inspections, they are incredibly accurate on the relative crappyness/potential finishing ability of the cars.  Walk the paddock and look at the cars, make guesses on which will finish well and why, and then compare what you thought with the actual finishing order....  Your eyes will be opened.    Ask questions, help teams out, hammer back beers with guys... you will learn a lot.   


   That's it for now, I'm sure I'll come up with some new thoughts after you super-wrenches tell me I'm all washed up...     


-From the first letter of John to the Racers.

Gosh, my business card says 'Tech Tyrant'

Re: Secrets of the Inner Circle, or how to do well at Lemons

I've added lightness, and fixed the handling (no really)... but I just can't get myself to part with the OE British wiring loom. It's the only one I've ever seen that actually works!

Much to my teammate's chagrin, we doin' it with Lucas Baby!!

(We'll be done by dark, right?)

"Real ZomBees prefer Bacon"
IOE(x2) MGB/SAAB 96, Judge's Choice, Class C Win, & 2011 Hooniverse Car of the Year!
MRolla, Stick Figure/Animal House, Free Range MR2, SAAB Sonett, "The Death Flip"
2008 Exoskeleton Jag Fiasco, Concours d Lemons - Rue Britannia, worse British car.

Re: Secrets of the Inner Circle, or how to do well at Lemons

Very good advice. I might add:

5) Have good teammates. You need drivers that are pretty quick, have good car control, have good vision, and know how to stay out of trouble. This doesn't mean that they have to be pro SCCA racers, but drivers that can anticipate what other (possibly inexperienced) drivers will do.

They also need to have a good personality fit (e.g. be willing to play in a team,  laid-back is good, want to have fun), have skills that the team needs (mechanical, fab, artistic/theme, financial, transport/tow, etc), be available, be reliable (show up, pay up, don't cancel), and have the cash.

Further, if you want to win or place near the top, I think:
6) Have a fast-ish car. Doesn't have to be the fastest by any means (and those cars may break). But starting with the wrong car will make it impossible to win. Our car simply isn't fast enough. There are enough cars weaving through the pack that one of them will be good enough to stay out of the penalty box and beat us, even if we had zero BS lap, zero penalties, and drove until our tank was empty and our bladder was full.

That said, we have a ton of fun in our low power mid sized sedan. It's been really reliable, easy on consumables, and easy to drive. We'll never win in it, but that isn't our goal. We just want to race, say out of the penalty box, stay off the jack stands, and have a really good time. I'd guess there are quite a few teams in our situation.

Near-Orbital Space Monkeys
#528 BMW 528e 121hp Black "Saturn 5" Rocket car with orange foam flames. Sold.
#71 Yellow Fox Mustang. For sale.

4 (edited by VKZ24 2009-10-22 06:17 AM)

Re: Secrets of the Inner Circle, or how to do well at Lemons

I agree 100%.   Point #1 is the key.  It doesn't matter if your car is 5 seconds faster per lap if you spend half the day working on it because of overheating or whatever.


I would add one thing though...BRAKES.  Buy the best pads you can afford.  If your pads came from AutoZone, you are doing it wrong. Yes, I know some people have made it through with those sh*tty pads, but really...just go buy REAL race pads.  I know they cost more, but they will stop better, last longer, won't fade and cause you time in the penalty box explaining why you just crashed into that other car entering T1.  Point No.2 above will help with brakes as well.  FYI, we ran Hawk HP Plus pads and used less than half of the fronts.  The rears still look brand new.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: Secrets of the Inner Circle, or how to do well at Lemons

I couldn't agree with #1 more.  Slow laps on the track will always do you better than no laps in the pits.  Case in point, our car was worlds faster than the lada, yet they beat us overall.  They kept running, we broke.  Simple as that.

We also are not going to win.  We went as a mostly green team with no aspirations other than finishing. And we did, didn't kill each other, had a great time, and met a hell of a lot of great people.  Jay sunk his hook deeper, we have another car coming, will run 4 events with 2 cars next year, and are currently looking at black market organ donation to fund it.  In other words, progressing down the normal Lemons addiction path just nicely.

Bloomington, IN
We'll bring Beer!  Motorsports
Team Fiery Death! #0 2009 Lamest Day(65th), 2010 American Irony(24th), 2010 Detroit Bull(4th),2012 Capitol Offense (8th) 2012 American Irony (11 th), 2013 Capitol Offense (3rd) 2013 Chubba Chedder (4th, Judge Choice!) Now sadly part of a scrap pile. 
Toothless Racing Deadbeats #110 2011 Summit Point (61st) Currently being rebuilt into the new car!

Re: Secrets of the Inner Circle, or how to do well at Lemons

Guess I'll throw in a tip: watch the rad cradle....for the smaller unibody cars even a small bump will torque the rad cradle and impart a twisting force on the rad....with modern crimped tanks this will encourage a failure...use rubber and get the rad to "float" free of the rigid stock mounts and consider how it will move in a minor impact....if you can use longer hoses, do it to avoid straining the outlet/inlet necks...use a very small amount of ignition "grease" on the outlets if the barbs and hoses are good....if not go the other way and use silicone gasket goo....let it dry a full 24 hrs before you fill the system.

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....

Re: Secrets of the Inner Circle, or how to do well at Lemons

jimeditorial wrote:

Guess I'll throw in a tip: watch the rad cradle....for the smaller unibody cars even a small bump will torque the rad cradle and impart a twisting force on the rad....with modern crimped tanks this will encourage a failure...use rubber and get the rad to "float" free of the rigid stock mounts and consider how it will move in a minor impact....if you can use longer hoses, do it to avoid straining the outlet/inlet necks...use a very small amount of ignition "grease" on the outlets if the barbs and hoses are good....if not go the other way and use silicone gasket goo....let it dry a full 24 hrs before you fill the system.

Good tips... to all as well as Jim...

Sons of STIG
Judge Jonny, "So, what's the next formerly thought to be immune from winning that will steal the nickels?An MR2? A Fierro (ha ha ha)? A Datsun/Nissan Z? A Camaro?"

Re: Secrets of the Inner Circle, or how to do well at Lemons

Cutting holes in the hood sure helps keep coolant temps in check.

Really doing well can be summed up best like this:  Do whatever it takes to keep your ass out on track.  Just. Turn. Laps.

Fall South 09- 23rd place
Southern Discomfort '10 Magnum PU- 5th place
Spring South '10- 1st...... LOSER!

Re: Secrets of the Inner Circle, or how to do well at Lemons

And try to bring as many spares as possible, because what you don't have, will break.  We broke down for lack of $50 in parts.  We got it resolved, but it cost us 4 hours.  Make sure you have the little things, coil, spare cap and rotor, fuel pump, etc.

Bloomington, IN
We'll bring Beer!  Motorsports
Team Fiery Death! #0 2009 Lamest Day(65th), 2010 American Irony(24th), 2010 Detroit Bull(4th),2012 Capitol Offense (8th) 2012 American Irony (11 th), 2013 Capitol Offense (3rd) 2013 Chubba Chedder (4th, Judge Choice!) Now sadly part of a scrap pile. 
Toothless Racing Deadbeats #110 2011 Summit Point (61st) Currently being rebuilt into the new car!

Re: Secrets of the Inner Circle, or how to do well at Lemons

davisriley wrote:

And try to bring as many spares as possible, because what you don't have, will break.  We broke down for lack of $50 in parts.  We got it resolved, but it cost us 4 hours.  Make sure you have the little things, coil, spare cap and rotor, fuel pump, etc.

If you can buy new SMALL parts within budget then do it...

That $5 you skimped on the belt or $25 on a new mechanical fuel pump... $30 on an oil pump that was questionable...

Sons of STIG
Judge Jonny, "So, what's the next formerly thought to be immune from winning that will steal the nickels?An MR2? A Fierro (ha ha ha)? A Datsun/Nissan Z? A Camaro?"

Re: Secrets of the Inner Circle, or how to do well at Lemons

Riktor wrote:
davisriley wrote:

And try to bring as many spares as possible, because what you don't have, will break.  We broke down for lack of $50 in parts.  We got it resolved, but it cost us 4 hours.  Make sure you have the little things, coil, spare cap and rotor, fuel pump, etc.

If you can buy new SMALL parts within budget then do it...

That $5 you skimped on the belt or $25 on a new mechanical fuel pump... $30 on an oil pump that was questionable...

Absolutly.

Bloomington, IN
We'll bring Beer!  Motorsports
Team Fiery Death! #0 2009 Lamest Day(65th), 2010 American Irony(24th), 2010 Detroit Bull(4th),2012 Capitol Offense (8th) 2012 American Irony (11 th), 2013 Capitol Offense (3rd) 2013 Chubba Chedder (4th, Judge Choice!) Now sadly part of a scrap pile. 
Toothless Racing Deadbeats #110 2011 Summit Point (61st) Currently being rebuilt into the new car!

Re: Secrets of the Inner Circle, or how to do well at Lemons

A $12.00 alternator belt cost us an hour+ at the Fall CMP event.

Fall South 09- 23rd place
Southern Discomfort '10 Magnum PU- 5th place
Spring South '10- 1st...... LOSER!

Re: Secrets of the Inner Circle, or how to do well at Lemons

I agree with all of these tips. It worked for us at CMP Fall. In fact, they worked so well that we almost fell victim to the curse. People got the wrong idea that there was more there than there really was. It was just a bone stock car with rock hard tires that was prepared for reliability and driven well. Any team can win that uses these tips.

One tip that I would caution noobs on that is not mentioned here, but has gotten some press on other threads is staying out for extendedly long stints. Don't do it! Exhaustion sneaks up on you slowly, and you may not realize that you are in trouble. Most of the teams that are doing this have very experienced enduro drivers. One hour would be my max recommended drive time for a team that does not race enduro on a regular basis.

Everything was fine after they got the fire put out.

Re: Secrets of the Inner Circle, or how to do well at Lemons

Good post.  Messages are right on!

My suggestion.  Pay attention to the rules.  For example, don't get black flagged for a pit lane infraction by speeding or having someone over the wall without the proper dress.

-- John Robertson / Schumacher Taxi Service

Know more about a Craptation, coROLLa and BMW than I ever wanted to!
Stafford 08, CMP Spring/Fall 09, Stafford 09, Nelson Ledges 09, CMP Winter 10, VIR Chump 10, IOE Winning Craptation CMP Spring 2010, and lots more

Re: Secrets of the Inner Circle, or how to do well at Lemons

Hey Evil, Is it true that you have a dyno in your shop?  How long were your stints at BW?  Did you install a large gas tank? Some words about adjustable shocks....the adjustability is for cars that run on the street AND the track.  Adjustable shocks on a race car are put on the stiffest setting and left there.  So, if one can find really stiff shocks, there is no need for adjustability.  Been that, done there...got the bs laps to prove it...

sawinatthewheel...sometimes too much, sometimes not enough...just like life

Re: Secrets of the Inner Circle, or how to do well at Lemons

sawinatthewheel wrote:

Some words about adjustable shocks....the adjustability is for cars that run on the street AND the track.  Adjustable shocks on a race car are put on the stiffest setting and left there.

LOL.  F'n with the noobs?

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: Secrets of the Inner Circle, or how to do well at Lemons

sawinatthewheel wrote:

Hey Evil, Is it true that you have a dyno in your shop?  How long were your stints at BW?  Did you install a large gas tank? Some words about adjustable shocks....the adjustability is for cars that run on the street AND the track.  Adjustable shocks on a race car are put on the stiffest setting and left there.  So, if one can find really stiff shocks, there is no need for adjustability.  Been that, done there...got the bs laps to prove it...

Yes, we have a Mustang Dyno, and we use it.     I wasn't driving at BW,  but the stints were as long as a tank of fuel lasted, somewhere between 1:20 and 1:40 depending on Yellows.  The tank is a stock Volvo 244 tank, about 14-15 gallons.

   The car doesn't have that much power. the 302 is tired and we run a smallish Carter 500CFM carb in the interest of torque and fuel mileage.  We used the Dyno to jet the carb.      It has under 200 HP, but over 200 ft/lbs of torque.  It cannot spin, they were shifting at approx 4500 rpm.       A larger tank would be nice and I think Dave is working on it.....  They won with good driving and only one penalty.

Gosh, my business card says 'Tech Tyrant'

Re: Secrets of the Inner Circle, or how to do well at Lemons

sawinatthewheel wrote:

Hey Evil, Is it true that you have a dyno in your shop?  How long were your stints at BW?  Did you install a large gas tank? Some words about adjustable shocks....the adjustability is for cars that run on the street AND the track.  Adjustable shocks on a race car are put on the stiffest setting and left there.  So, if one can find really stiff shocks, there is no need for adjustability.  Been that, done there...got the bs laps to prove it...

Remind me not to ride in your car.... lol

Re: Secrets of the Inner Circle, or how to do well at Lemons

Evil Genius wrote:

the 302 is tired and we run a smallish Carter 500CFM carb in the interest of torque and fuel mileage.  We used the Dyno to jet the carb.      It has under 200 HP, but over 200 ft/lbs of torque.  It cannot spin, they were shifting at approx 4500 rpm.       A larger tank would be nice and I think Dave is working on it.....  They won with good driving and only one penalty.

That car was FAST! and CLEAN!  Congrats on the win

And thanks again for the use of your engine hoist Friday night.

Re: Secrets of the Inner Circle, or how to do well at Lemons

OK,OK..I should add that I wasn't thinking of Koni...I think Koni's stiffest setting would rip the top of the shock tower right out of the car.  My point is that once the car is handling correctly there is no need to change the shock setting.  The judges get all huffy when they see adjustable shocks but in reality there isn't much adjusting goin' on.  KYB AGX is at the lower end of the adjustable shock price range and those can be set on the stiffest setting.

sawinatthewheel...sometimes too much, sometimes not enough...just like life

Re: Secrets of the Inner Circle, or how to do well at Lemons

sawinatthewheel wrote:

OK,OK..I should add that I wasn't thinking of Koni...I think Koni's stiffest setting would rip the top of the shock tower right out of the car.

Correct, once a shock is dialed in there should never be big adjustments to it.   And you can blow a Koni by setting it on it's hardest setting. 

I actually don't have much/any experience with shocks "less than" Koni.  For the buck, Konis get my vote everytime - even on street cars.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

22 (edited by Spank 2009-10-22 10:28 PM)

Re: Secrets of the Inner Circle, or how to do well at Lemons

Evil Genius wrote:

They won with good driving and only one penalty.

Well, the Sprite got tagged and we also got tagged in the mini pretty hard on day 1 at Buttonwillow-- hard enough that it f-d up the steering rack and lunched a borrowed wheel that I've gotta find a replacement for-- no black flag for your drivers, though.  And we were pointing EVERYONE by. Well, possibly not the guy who was driving when it got hit.

Water under the bridge, though. Shoulda never borrowed those wheels, neither.

--Spank

Re: Secrets of the Inner Circle, or how to do well at Lemons

The price of one adjustable Koni and your whole budget is GONE...

Richard Doty
1984 Porsche 928 "Estate"
Porsche- "there is A substitute" Racing
Dirt Poorsche Racing #2

24 (edited by kalpol 2009-10-26 02:34 PM)

Re: Secrets of the Inner Circle, or how to do well at Lemons

icemang17 wrote:

The price of one adjustable Koni and your whole budget is GONE...

Not really, we found a NOS set of red Konis for the front of the Brava for a hundred bucks.  Granted, who else would have ever bought them, but still, maybe you'll get lucky.

Also they were on the stiffest setting and nothing ripped out of the car.

Josh Poage
Poage Ma Thoin Racing - 1981 Fiat Brava #09 - 2009 Yee-haw It's Texas
Prison Break Racing - 1986 325e #27 - 2010 Gator-o-Rama
Poage Ma Thoin Racing - 1981 Fiat Brava #09 - 2011 Heaps in the Heart of Texas

Re: Secrets of the Inner Circle, or how to do well at Lemons

Very good tips guys Id like to have one more.

HAVE FUN!!  Its Lemons!!

Team Sucker Punch: Winner Class B Doing Time at Joliet 2023 Autobahn ,Winner Org Choice award Were the Elite Meet to Cheat 2015
Chevy Camaro (Tiger striped #38)  (1989-2017 RIP old friend)
Chevy Corvette 1984......and still racing!