Arrive and Drives: a new discussion (Page 1 of 2)

My problem with anybody but me driving was the cage and accidents: Adding people to the team who are simply acquaintances would make me even more nervous.

1) if paid driver #1 wads the car up in turn 2, what happens to the money from the other folks? and who pays for the car?

2) if said driver is also wadded up and med-evac'd to a hospital and has debilitating injuries, what would be my liability having designed the cage and oversaw(sp?) the car's construction (even though the cage conforms 100% to current FIA regulations)? 

I was paranoid about someone suffering an injury and STILL am since our mini is now a "club car" and anyone from the club (no dues, no paperwork, no officers --nothing formal "club") can use it. I'm not the car's owner, but I did captain the car's build.

A wise man once told me:  "don't take anything to the race track that you can't afford to leave there."  This is why we race a neon instead of something more exotic, wierd or cool.  The shell is disposable, and the cage is a bolt-in with an extra driver's door bar welded in.  If the car gets crashed, it's likely that most of the parts could be re-used.  That's what I'm hoping, anyway.

So far, my team is on only its 2nd Lemons.  We have had arrive-and-drive guys in both events.  Our standard so far is that the arrive-and-driver must be known by at least one local team member, and known to be a decent driver in prior track events.  The car was built by myself and a couple other locals, and it is made clear to the arrive-and-drivers that they do not have any ownership stake in the car.  The arrive-and-drivers have to pay their share of the costs to enter and campaign the car for the weekend.

Is it fair that I put a lot of time and money into the car, but others need only show up on race weekend?  No, but if I want to race that's how it has to be.  I'd rather have guys that I know, and whose capabilities and demeanor I know, fly in or drive in and race with us than have just any local yahoo who might clumsily help build the car.

If liability protection is your main concern from an owner's perspective, one thing you might want to consider is the kind of corporate shell approach that a lot of real estate developers take. You'd want to talk to your own lawyer about this, but the basic idea is to form a general corp (LLC, usually) and then form a separate limited partnership (LP) for each particular car. Doing so will involve some legal expense what with the entity formation and getting all the bylaws straight, but if done right, it could shield you individually from liability and focus all the liability in the corporations. You would need to get some pretty iron-clad disclaimers from all your ride-buyers, too, in addition to some other stuff. And you have to make sure that you don't fall afoul of the alter-ego laws, too, which can make it tricky for such low-budget stuff as Lemons. Getting a corp form involved would also make it easier to secure insurance, although it probably wouldn't be cheap since this is an inherently dangerous line of activity.

Also, you'll probably need to farm out a ton of work so that you don't re-insert yourself into the chain of liability. If the cage fails, for example, then Bob's Cage Installers would be on the hook instead of you as a DIY builder of the car. Again, this may not be practical for a low-budget series. In fact, it's probably taking it way too seriously. I can't believe you roped me into this discussion, on a Sunday morning no less. As countless millions have doubtlessly said before me, damn you Troy!

Point 2 is sort of related to liability....up here for example, if you share the costs of a cross country trip, the driver's insurance is OK...if you take cash that's more than the shared expenses, you're a taxi and need that kind of insurance...seems to me that if your pay driver is just covering his/her share of the expenses, the car owner isn't running a money-making enterprise, just sharing expenses..then what's fair is simply running costs divided by the number of drivers....Car owners should share the cost of car prep...if they're also the drivers, you're go to go.

1) A team should bring as many cars as they can build and get accepted.  Don't worry about others not getting a slot.  You are providing opportunities for drivers.  If someone doesn’t get in they need to improve their theme and application.
2) Charge what it cost for your team to run the car.  Our cost has been in the $350-450 per person for 4-6 drivers.  Everything we run is low budget.  Cheap seat.  No cool suits, radios, timers….
3) What you get depends on your team.  We have given everyone on the team equal seat time, but if they end up with a penalty they forfeit their remaining shift and it gets split up amongst the other drivers (If their penalty infringes on the next driver’s time they have time deducted from their next shift).  Our guys take care of their own food.  Camping fees or hotel is at your own discretion.  We put up a couple ez-up awnings, nothing more.  I’ve seen some teams advertise food and a bed in a motor home.  Do what works for you.
4) I think team members should be expected to work on the car, share duties spotting (or manning the radio), be ready to drive and any other errands needed to keep the car going.

Not too complicated.  I might develop a basic release form that explains this is dangerous and that there are no guarantees of seat time.

I was the one who brought it up in the other thread, and I don't recall calling them all jerks.

Anyway I do agree with what they said as it being a good way for people who can't build a car, get a full team or tow the vehicle cross country.  (I seriously doubt that the new england cars will ever race the california cars).

However if every team starts entering 2 or more cars to rent you quickly cut down the number of teams that can build a car.  It has been stated that former entrants that have shown they are within the spirit of the race get in before new people.  So basically Troy's cars will get in before new guys car.  I'm sure if Troy entered 100 cars and took up all the spots it wouldn't fly.  (although it would be interesting to have the teams randomly assigned at the day of the track to random cars).

I'm sure there is some nice balance so its fair to everyone though.

As for cost, it should be enough to cover everything to make the car run, some compensation for the work you put in to do that and probably something extra so you can pay for future repairs or the replacement car when someone rams it into a wall.

You have to make sure the car will pass inspections without a hitch (no tech problems and bs with 0 laps because I would be pretty mad to pay money to rent the car and start 500 laps in the whole)  That the car be mechanically sound so it has a good shot of running the full race, and relatively competitive (like a mid pack performance car, I would assume if you had a car that you felt would win you'd be driving it)

The team members would show up, split driving duties fairly, and drive within the rules as best as possible.  Being arrive and drive can't expect them to do much in prep work, and you'd assume if the car breaks it would be in their best interest to help the best they can, but I wouldn't expect them to fly from where ever they came from with much in the way of tools, and I doubt they will be fully versed in everything about whatever specific model you have them running in.  So you would have to assist in that and probably furnish the parts for repairs.

Cars per team say three max, only two cars which are manned are arrive and drives. Any more than that and you will just be playing car owner and host and not get to drive.

Cost depends on how much you spend to put the car together, $3000 to $4000 is my best feel for what you really need to spend.  So:
4 driver $800 to $900
5 driver $650 to $725
6 driver $550 to $625
Now before the whining starts saying that is not enough, you CAN spend way more putting a car together for Lemons but anything beyond $4000 and you are doing a bunch of unnecessary work to improve performance.  Most of those performance mods will do nothing but bite you in the trunk later on.

What should you get if you rent, is a car that if driven without black flags will finish in the top 20%, a car that passes tech without any drama or issues, if it gets hit with BS laps it should be a reasonble ammount that can be overcome by clean driving.  The car is able to finish the race without mechanical issue.  Now before you jump up and say "no that is not reasonable!" hear me out.  A semi-modern crap can from the 80s and up should have the reliability that, if driven with an ounce of mechanical sympathy, can easily cover the distance of any Lemons race.  If the car was reasonably reliable to start with (Z's need not apply) do the basic maintenance (shocks, brakes, clutch, fluids, belts, hoses and a working cooling system) that you would do before a cross country road trip in a crap can and you should be good to go.

Expectations if the car breaks the arrive and drives work to help fix it, because it will break, but the car owner also does everything in his power to get the car fixed.   If the car owner is on track then he needs to come in make a driver change and help get the broken rent car back on track.  Otherwise do not expect any repeat arrive and drive customers, and much internet name calling to follow.  If the rent car failure is terminal then offer to put your arrive and drives in your other team cars so that everyone gets some seat time.

Couldn't you set aside a $100/driver contingency fund to cover unexpected stuff like that?  Or say "ok, the car is currently not running.  anyone who wants to keep driving is free to throw in $30 so we can go get parts to fix it, anyone who does not want to keep driving doesn't have to."

No I said:
"Cars per team say three max, only two cars which are manned are arrive and drives.  Any more than that and you will just be playing car owner and host and not get to drive"

I believe that if you try to manage more than two cars full of arrive and drives, you will not have time to drive your own entry.  I am considering his question as what can one person do alone.  I guess for the slow I should have made that more clear.  I am not trying to making up rules for Jay.  He has already ruled.

I do not give a flip about how many people and teams you pull together.  50 people and 5 cars, bring them, the more the better.  I do not think it would make for a fun event to manage 50 arrive and drivers and 5 other cars.  That is all.

Each car applies separately already, so no, I have no idea what your point is.

Seriously Jer calling someone or something retarded over Lemons?  Go Club Race.

Each of the three events the Gnome has run has had a team mate fail to get a great stint due to one thing or another.  It's ok because we basically keep the same group of drivers on the team so what goes around comes around and everyone has had good stints too.  At Reno everyone got some great seat time.  At Buttonwillow, not so much.

The big issue with arrive and drive is that Lemons cars are too crappy to be sure to last the whole race even if they don't crash.  Having people who have no stake in the team or car pay to drive is a bit risky because there is a chance the car will go tits up before they get to drive.  Refunds?  I don't think so.  Charging a driver for damage is also a bit tough.  Establishing fault in a race environment is not really easy.  If the Gnome gets piled, or poops it's engine, we will have to work together to fix it.  Once you are charging arrive and drivers, you can't really expect them to bust knuckles on a car that's not theirs, particularly if you are billing them for what they broke.  We just ridicule a driver when he breaks the car and leave it at that.

I think that running a team for arrive and drivers is not really viable when the equipment is not new and professionally maintained.  Lemons is best raced by teams made up of friends who throw their resources together and have a good time.

The biggest reason I want to build several cars is to help match the cars with the driver's abilities.

Yes folks, some Lemons drivers are better than others and some cars are better than others.

the top finishing cars are not usually the fast ones.  Sometimes they break but most of the time, they get penalties. 

Schwing, who won the first Houston race does make fast lap times in their FX-16 and they are good drivers.  I still find it hard to believe that car is that fast but it does make good lap times.  They drive it well and stay out of trouble.

As we are going to full course races without chicanes, I think the better cars with better drivers are going to start to stand out more.  Four cylinder Mustangs will be easier and more forgiving to drive, especially for beginners.  However, a well driven V8 Mustang will blow it's door off.

My 240Z turned out way faster and more competitive than expected.  It was a build among a group of friends, complete with drama.  I got to foot a large portion of the bill too since I did legally own the car.  Our team is quite different from the beginning for various reasons.  So now I fill empty seats with more or less arrive and drives.

I'd like to see the 240Z driven by a full team of truly good drivers.

For my friends and family that want to come race too, I want to put together fun but less aggressive car for them.  A car that is less likely to get away from them so easily, stress reliability. 

Besides, when they get in trouble, they can enjoy Lemons justice on their own too.  I don't expect to get 6 more friends together to fill a beginner car, maybe a few.  Throw in a few more and you've got a team.  As a more experienced group, we can help them and maybe teach them.

I have a first gen Celica I want to set up for this.  I think I am going to leave the automatic and throw on a big cooler.  Give it a little camber but nothing excessive.  Good tires but maybe a longer lasting tire. 

After that, I was thinking some intermediate cars.  Maybe an additional advanced car.  I'm working on various crazy ideas. 

Aside from this issue, I think many Arrive and Drive guys have a feeling of entitlement.  Well, for the amount of time, effort and money that's in my car, I am starting to think $500 ain't enough.  If most guys are just going to show up, and driver with very little other contributions, I think they need to pay more. 

Maybe I should start fining guys for penalties and charging for repairs too.  I am not going that far but I think $500 is a fair price to drive a car.  Maybe it will even be a good one. 

This is racing and there are no guarantees.  At the Crap Can level, you are pushing the odds and for a long time.  There's a good chance the car will break.

Regarding who's fault it is if the car gets wrecked on the track, read the Speed Sport Life article about racing.  It's the guy in the driver's seats fault, no matter what.

Well, I am getting to tires to respond coherently.
http://www.speedsportlife.com/2009/03/2 … an-racing/

Why should arrive-and-drive folks get a better deal than those that busted their knuckles and had oil dribbling down their arms for week after week?

Charge them a fair price (their share of consumables, fees, prep costs, food, and minor repair costs from the last race), plus maybe a small premium of some sort for not having any risk if the car is destroyed. Treat them like regular team members. They get good and bad luck just like everyone else. They help just like everyone else. It's a team, and working together in a shared struggle is part of the fun.

An all arrive-and-drive team would not have the same experience as a team that has shared car prep. I would hope that race acceptance would favor  driver-owner teams in heavily oversubscribed events.