Topic: Super K Tech - Help

Right now it runs quite well up to 4k without the MAP sensor.  With the MAP sensor there's intermittent stumbling - no rhyme or reason to it.  The MAP sensor has been replaced, so that's not the problem.  Without the MAP sensor signal the ECM apparently reverts to a static mapping table - likely a 'limp' mode.  So, what are your theories on what's wrong?  Bad ECM?  Ignition control module?

Speedycop/NSF Racing /Pinewood Dirtbags
'10 Summit, CMP3, Autobahn, '11 CMP1, NJMP, CMP2, Summit, G'man, Stafford, Charlotte, Autobahn, ECR '12 CMP1, NJMP, G'man, NHMS1, Summit, CMP2, NHMS2, ECR, '13 CMP1, ECR, Summit, NJMP, THill, CMP2, MSR, NHMS, Sears '14 Barber, Sears1, ECR, CMP1, NJMP1, BWillow, Sebring, CMP2, THill, Sears2, '15 Sears1, Barber, Ridge, THill, '16 Sears1

Re: Super K Tech - Help

2 ideas. Assuming that its not the ECU because I think that's already been changed. If you have a throttle position sensor that's giving a wonky voltage output, you could get a stumble even at WOT, which should be giving a consistent volt signal at that point.

Stranger, but maybe even more possible. Is the K running the stock intake for the current motor (possibly a stupid question). If not, the airflow in the intake may be too turbulent for the MAF, which can lead to stumbling as the MAF is showing the ECU a wonky voltage fluctuation. Cheap/lemony solution is to cut up a bunch of drinking straws & form them in the intake just ahead of the MAF so that the airflow is straight as it comes across the MAF. Google SaxonPC and see what I mean.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67
https://youtu.be/qmf9JkedPR8

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: Super K Tech - Help

Another good question is how to make the problem show itself.   It seems like the car runs across the country fine, but 20ish laps of "racing" start the stumble.   Does sound correct from Denver on?

"He attacked everything in life with a mixture of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which."   -Adams, Douglas.   The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

14x loser @ Gingerman, Autobahn, Summit Point, New Jersey, Road 'Merica, and Barber

Re: Super K Tech - Help

The car is now running the correct fuel pump, right?

Command Pilot/Flight Director, Escape Velocity Racing
Index of Effluency, Heroic Fix, Class C Trophy, now hopelessly gunning for Class B.
Currently 1-2 vs. Team Fairlylame in the Class of 1964 Championships

Re: Super K Tech - Help

Thinking out loud...

With MAP sensor unplugged does it go into limp mode?  If so then it is not using the other engine sensors such as the O2 sensor.  Is the O2 sensor OK? Maybe the excess oil burning be fouling the O2 sensor?

Mike
Hong Norrth
#39 TRON Gray/Orange MX-3, aka "Sumbich"

Re: Super K Tech - Help

o2 sensor(s) are new.  fuel pump is rated for that engine as far as i know.

Speedycop/NSF Racing /Pinewood Dirtbags
'10 Summit, CMP3, Autobahn, '11 CMP1, NJMP, CMP2, Summit, G'man, Stafford, Charlotte, Autobahn, ECR '12 CMP1, NJMP, G'man, NHMS1, Summit, CMP2, NHMS2, ECR, '13 CMP1, ECR, Summit, NJMP, THill, CMP2, MSR, NHMS, Sears '14 Barber, Sears1, ECR, CMP1, NJMP1, BWillow, Sebring, CMP2, THill, Sears2, '15 Sears1, Barber, Ridge, THill, '16 Sears1

Re: Super K Tech - Help

What makes you think the replacement MAP is good?

Re: Super K Tech - Help

b/c it came in a shiny box, of course.  For all I know it's shit.  Just say'n the MAP sensor in the car has been swapped.

Speedycop/NSF Racing /Pinewood Dirtbags
'10 Summit, CMP3, Autobahn, '11 CMP1, NJMP, CMP2, Summit, G'man, Stafford, Charlotte, Autobahn, ECR '12 CMP1, NJMP, G'man, NHMS1, Summit, CMP2, NHMS2, ECR, '13 CMP1, ECR, Summit, NJMP, THill, CMP2, MSR, NHMS, Sears '14 Barber, Sears1, ECR, CMP1, NJMP1, BWillow, Sebring, CMP2, THill, Sears2, '15 Sears1, Barber, Ridge, THill, '16 Sears1

Re: Super K Tech - Help

I'm hoping for a pow-wow with Alex, the K, myself, and Mr. Fluke when the K returns to Florida (I will push for it to come out to my garage, because it's air-conditioned and should have  a kegerator by then) to determine the fitness of the various sensors.

Official photographer/Team Police Brutality|Speedycop & the Gang
Lackey-mechanic-whatever/NSF Racing
Sycophant/Judge Phil, Jay Lamm, Kim Harmon
Galaxie Driver/not Parnelli Jones

10 (edited by fleming95 2013-08-16 12:07 AM)

Re: Super K Tech - Help

There's also was (pre-Ridge) a small crimp in the hard fuel line atop the engine on the supply side.  A trip to your local junkyard for a meeting with a V6 LeBaron could put that right!

You might check the fuel pressure - perhaps pulling the MAP puts it into a limp mode that tries to go conservatively rich, but the fuel pressures are low, so the combination puts it somewhere near right?

I'd also rigged up a duct to try to get some air through the ECU for cooling, but it sounds like it went missing somewhere along the way, and was replaced?

11 (edited by Team Infinniti 2013-08-16 02:56 AM)

Re: Super K Tech - Help

Is it possible the ECU is incorrect?

Damn why is Fl so big and all races so far away..... I secretly yearn to wrench on this wretch in effort to see it complete a race with no or fewer or at least less driveability issues and oil spew......this car needs some of me, I need this car.

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring 6th-PBIR Lemons 9th - Charlotte Chump  CrashnBurn 9th
Sebring 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Trans Fail 16th
Daytona 11th - Sebring 6th - Atlanta Motor Speedway 2nd - Road Atlanta Trans Fail 61st-Road Atlanta 5th
Daytona 13th - Charlotte 9th - Sebring 2nd-Charlotte 25th broken brakes - Road Atlanta 14 10th-Daytona 14  58th- Humid TT 19th Judges' Choice!

Re: Super K Tech - Help

I've got another good one.  If the MAP is good and the ECU is correct, is the copper between them worth more than it's value in scrap?

"He attacked everything in life with a mixture of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which."   -Adams, Douglas.   The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

14x loser @ Gingerman, Autobahn, Summit Point, New Jersey, Road 'Merica, and Barber

13

Re: Super K Tech - Help

yukadas wrote:

I've got another good one.  If the MAP is good and the ECU is correct, is the copper between them worth more than it's value in scrap?

ding ding ding.

This space for rent.

Re: Super K Tech - Help

Basically, I'm just really hoping you guys figure this shit out before we take posse4sion of the car. I mean seriously, we tried to have a wpork day tonight, but instead we got really drunk, invited some people over, and decided to fuck with people on chatroullette instead. We are hopeless when it comes to getting shit done on cars.

I legitimately see those typos, but I'm going to leave them for honesty's sake. Although I did fix some in that previous sentence.

Command Pilot/Flight Director, Escape Velocity Racing
Index of Effluency, Heroic Fix, Class C Trophy, now hopelessly gunning for Class B.
Currently 1-2 vs. Team Fairlylame in the Class of 1964 Championships

Re: Super K Tech - Help

SpaceFrank wrote:

Basically, I'm just really hoping you guys figure this shit out before we take posse4sion of the car. I mean seriously, we tried to have a wpork day tonight, but instead we got really drunk, invited some people over, and decided to fuck with people on chatroullette instead. We are hopeless when it comes to getting shit done on cars.

I legitimately see those typos, but I'm going to leave them for honesty's sake. Although I did fix some in that previous sentence.

Frank just won Lemons internet today.

Speedycop/NSF Racing /Pinewood Dirtbags
'10 Summit, CMP3, Autobahn, '11 CMP1, NJMP, CMP2, Summit, G'man, Stafford, Charlotte, Autobahn, ECR '12 CMP1, NJMP, G'man, NHMS1, Summit, CMP2, NHMS2, ECR, '13 CMP1, ECR, Summit, NJMP, THill, CMP2, MSR, NHMS, Sears '14 Barber, Sears1, ECR, CMP1, NJMP1, BWillow, Sebring, CMP2, THill, Sears2, '15 Sears1, Barber, Ridge, THill, '16 Sears1

Re: Super K Tech - Help

DC Doug wrote:
SpaceFrank wrote:

Basically, I'm just really hoping you guys figure this shit out before we take posse4sion of the car. I mean seriously, we tried to have a wpork day tonight, but instead we got really drunk, invited some people over, and decided to fuck with people on chatroullette instead. We are hopeless when it comes to getting shit done on cars.

I legitimately see those typos, but I'm going to leave them for honesty's sake. Although I did fix some in that previous sentence.

Frank just won Lemons internet today.

(applause)

Head of Estate
/) come monday motorsports /)

The car was the one...

Re: Super K Tech - Help

Have you tried datalogging?  It's easy enough on the 4 cylinder mopars, and it looks like it might not be too hard on the DSMs either.

Re: Super K Tech - Help

Sounds cheaty

"He attacked everything in life with a mixture of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which."   -Adams, Douglas.   The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

14x loser @ Gingerman, Autobahn, Summit Point, New Jersey, Road 'Merica, and Barber

Re: Super K Tech - Help

It's almost certainly not a fuel issue.  The K does have a starvation issue under about half a tank in left-handers and that is repeatable and feels different.

20 (edited by fleming95 2013-08-17 09:34 PM)

Re: Super K Tech - Help

curlypaul924 wrote:

Have you tried datalogging?  It's easy enough on the 4 cylinder mopars, and it looks like it might not be too hard on the DSMs either.

Hmm.  I didn't figure that a '90 car would have any ability to do that fancy stuff at all!

Heck, it was easy to figure out which wire was supposed to be the 'check engine' light - but since it's a Lemons car, I had absolutely zero luck getting it to do anything.

If this 'datalogging' thingamajiggy happens, make sure to make a good sacrifice to the god of the K -

-Jeff

Re: Super K Tech - Help

I think this is Super K's way of saying it wants a 2.5 turbo...

Fourteen time loser. You'd think I'd know better by now.

Re: Super K Tech - Help

First post on Lemons forums. Shockingly a K-car is what finally pulled me in.  Im a weirdo k-car enthusiast and have owned many and still own... 6 plus 1 non dodge with a k-car drivetrain.

Anyway, this thing has a 3.0 in it now, right? 

My first suspicion is a connection issue. Look for obvious looseness in the terminals that go over the map sensor pins. If nothing is obvious there, run the car and start tugging on the harness all the way from the map sensor to the computer. If that causes an issue you'll have to start digging into stuff to find it, or just run new wires for the map outside the main harness.

It's easy to look at datastream on a scanner on these things if you have something that will hook up to them. The main downfall is that their refresh rate is crappy so you want a scanner that will only look at 1 variable at a time (custom data list, etc). I have an old otc2000 that only shows 2 at a time, and a slightly newer otc Genisys that looks at like 10 things at a time and wont refresh for crap.  I've never done real datalogging on these old cars. If you have a portable oscilloscope of some kind you could always just watch the signal voltage coming out of the map. Preferably you'd want to tap into it as close to the computer as possible so it would show potential harness issues. The power and ground circuits you could just watch at the sensor end of the harness. You COULD just watch all three with a voltmeter but a lot of voltmeters arent fast enough to pick up fast changes in a circuit, like going to 0 and back up to normal in a split second.

Is the car in houston now?

Re: Super K Tech - Help

It's funny that you mention wiggling the harness.  I remember Ben messing with the harness at one point and it ran better for a bit.  I think I recall that.

Now for the important thing I took away from the last post.  A real live K car enthusiast?  That's kind of sick...even for the Lemons forum.

"He attacked everything in life with a mixture of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which."   -Adams, Douglas.   The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

14x loser @ Gingerman, Autobahn, Summit Point, New Jersey, Road 'Merica, and Barber

Re: Super K Tech - Help

p.s. vigo327, you should absolutely come race this thing

"He attacked everything in life with a mixture of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which."   -Adams, Douglas.   The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

14x loser @ Gingerman, Autobahn, Summit Point, New Jersey, Road 'Merica, and Barber

Re: Super K Tech - Help

yukadas wrote:

It's funny that you mention wiggling the harness.  I remember Ben messing with the harness at one point and it ran better for a bit.  I think I recall that.

Now for the important thing I took away from the last post.  A real live K car enthusiast?  That's kind of sick...even for the Lemons forum.

This and Vigo327's post.

I was there when Ben laid magical hands on the car.

The MAP issue had become so bad the car wouldn't start at all.  Just crank, crank, crank. Then he wiggled, then it started.

Also, the problem is TEMPERATURE sentive.  I say pulle the whole wiring harness, rerun and wrap in heat tape.

But what do I know, I sutdied theater.