Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

Baron wrote:

Can I add not to creep around the track at 20mph during yellows?

Oh, yes, please. I was going to bring that up. People just don't know. New teams mostly. They think they have to go 25 mph waiting for the non-existent Toyota Camry NASCAR  pace car to come on to the track.

Maybe we could all edumacate new teams, nicely, to safely catch up and keep up with cars in front, taking special care to slow down around the rescue vehicles and the yellow producing incident. The last three races I was in I got behind a rookie team going 25 while everybody stacked up behind them. Green flag flies and all hell breaks loose. I am more concerned about that then losing "valuable" time on track.

Having said that, special dispensation is given to those in cars that are trying their darndest to keep up under yellow (probably setting their fast laps of the day under the caution,) but just can't because they are in a Rambler (guilty) or Peugeot or Simca,

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

Wendell34 wrote:
Baron wrote:

Can I add not to creep around the track at 20mph during yellows?

Oh, yes, please. I was going to bring that up. People just don't know. New teams mostly. They think they have to go 25 mph waiting for the non-existent Toyota Camry NASCAR  pace car to come on to the track.

Maybe we could all edumacate new teams, nicely, to safely catch up and keep up with cars in front, taking special care to slow down around the rescue vehicles and the yellow producing incident. The last three races I was in I got behind a rookie team going 25 while everybody stacked up behind them. Green flag flies and all hell breaks loose. I am more concerned about that then losing "valuable" time on track.

Having said that, special dispensation is given to those in cars that are trying their darndest to keep up under yellow (probably setting their fast laps of the day under the caution,) but just can't because they are in a Rambler (guilty) or Peugeot or Simca,

or an Isuzu.

28 (edited by sheer_panic 2014-09-17 06:34 PM)

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

Baron wrote:

Can I add not to creep around the track at 20mph during yellows?

That could easily be aimed at me (New-ish Lemons driver driving the purple Mini) - in my defense, when I dropped down to around 30 during the long yellow on sunday, I had no brakes left and was just waiting to pit  - this was the first time I'd ever driven on a track without brakes. In retrospect, they were in fact totally optional and I could have just used engine braking, but at the time, it was just.. a new and novel situation.

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

I really appreciated that a few of the flag stations would start waving us on when they pulled down their yellow flags.  With the station to station yellow rule, you sometimes feel like you can't race until you PASS the next flag station.  But if the corner worker is waving me to get back to racing, I feel like I can get on it without risking a yellow.

Perhaps they need to tell the 20 mph parade leaders to pick it up, too.  Though I've also been the parade leader, going flat out, and holding up a ton of faster cars.

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Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

I can see how tire contact could lift one side of one of the cars into the air, and with that possibly resulting in a roll-over like in that Gremlin incident. But how does tire contact also get the other side of the car in the air? Crazy anti-gravity sway bars? Has that been Eyesore's secret all along?

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

That's an interesting physics question.  You can't put it down to ultra stiff suspension as I've see similar results in dirt racing with much softer suspension.  Why doesn't it flip you like a tiddlewink?  I suspect it has something to do with the relative speed of the two cars plus the relationship of the CG to the lever force (wheel shoving up on wheel) but I haven't stayed at a Holiday Inn lately.

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Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

It's not silly.. Really.  We lost our last race by 27 seconds due to getting stuck behind noobs in slow cars in yellows.  In fact, we lost 40 seconds on one lap in the last 20 mins under yellow to the team we were chasing down.    So, if I can safely pass a slow car prior to a yellow I will.   Stressing the word SAFELY.

OnkelUdo wrote:
Spank wrote:

Usually my problem is the opposite-- people seeing a yellow flag up ahead and trying their damnedest to gun it past my Class C cars so they aren't stuck behind them for potentially long yellows.

Which is silly...they will still get stuck behind you if it is long yellow unless you pit.  It just means they gain 7/8th's of a lap before doing it but place themselves at the BACK of the clusterf&*^# that forms behind you.  Maybe on a track as long as this it does not happen but on the 2'ish mile tracks we race it invariably does.

I think TSOG said it best "My fastest laps are under yellow."

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

Had to be done...

https://i.imgflip.com/c8qp8.gif

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

TeamLemon-aid wrote:

It's not silly.. Really.  We lost our last race by 27 seconds due to getting stuck behind noobs in slow cars in yellows.  In fact, we lost 40 seconds on one lap in the last 20 mins under yellow to the team we were chasing down.    So, if I can safely pass a slow car prior to a yellow I will.

I have to ask the collective audience: Is this comment really in the spirit of Lemons? The rage at not winning; the distain for newcomers; the pain of 40 seconds of his time? Do we want Lemons to be like SCCA?

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

fiatony2000 wrote:
TeamLemon-aid wrote:

It's not silly.. Really.  We lost our last race by 27 seconds due to getting stuck behind noobs in slow cars in yellows.  In fact, we lost 40 seconds on one lap in the last 20 mins under yellow to the team we were chasing down.    So, if I can safely pass a slow car prior to a yellow I will.

I have to ask the collective audience: Is this comment really in the spirit of Lemons? The rage at not winning; the distain for newcomers; the pain of 40 seconds of his time? Do we want Lemons to be like SCCA?

Sure, there's racing, there's Lemons fun, and then there's showing up on the track clueless.  The same folks that crawl around the track under yellow are usually also the ones slamming on their brakes when the yellow comes out.

Take a few moments to educate yourself before getting on the track.  I don't think it's not in the spirit of Lemons to say that, for whatever reason.

bs

36 (edited by stimpyvan 2014-09-18 02:29 PM)

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

fiatony2000 wrote:
TeamLemon-aid wrote:

It's not silly.. Really.  We lost our last race by 27 seconds due to getting stuck behind noobs in slow cars in yellows.  In fact, we lost 40 seconds on one lap in the last 20 mins under yellow to the team we were chasing down.    So, if I can safely pass a slow car prior to a yellow I will.

I have to ask the collective audience: Is this comment really in the spirit of Lemons? The rage at not winning; the distain for newcomers; the pain of 40 seconds of his time? Do we want Lemons to be like SCCA?

Just my opinion for what it's worth, but, yes I think it is in the spirit of Lemons.  I think there's room enough in Lemons to accommodate those showing up to win,  those who don't really care about their finishing position, & all combinations in between.

I'm not reading any rage or disdain into what he wrote.  He didn't say, "Get the fucking noobs off the track!", he's just stating what happened.  When I see a yellow down track, my decision on where to check up and fall into line is dependent on what cars are in front of me (& whether their brake lights come on), what cars are behind me, the section of track, and my knowledge (or lack thereof) of why the yellow is out.

Van

Edited for clarity.  And truthiness.

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37 (edited by TeamLemon-aid 2014-09-18 03:10 PM)

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

Do some research on my team.  We have driven the slow as slow can be class C Metro, we have put a 5x3 foot poster on the roof of an E30 at frickin Road America and sucked then returned to Road America and won overall in the closest race in Lemons history, and we have as many entries (often two cars) as any team in the Midwest in the last few years.  I have routinely welcomed new teams and we have assisted many. We try to live the spirit of Lemons.  Having said that, I want to race.

We didn't sign up for a parade.

This is racing with rules modified to allow "noobs" ( I was once a "noob" at some point also, not a nice term, and I shouldn't have used it ) to race without going to comp school or have a club racing license.  So we all must be aware of the varying level of driver on the track.

What I was trying to say is that it is certainly more appropriate to pass a slow car prior to a flag stand if safe to do so then standing on your brakes for fear of "racing to the flag stand" and fetter away 14 hours of painstakingly close racing only because being slow "somehow embodies Lemons".

The spirit of Lemons is safely and quickly driving a hooptie faster and longer than what was thought possible.  No, we don't want this to be club racing.  Yes, as Jay says, "this is real racing".   So there is room for guys to drive around in cars that look like airplanes and there is room for a few teams to take it semi-seriously (trying to avoid too seriously).


fiatony2000 wrote:
TeamLemon-aid wrote:

It's not silly.. Really.  We lost our last race by 27 seconds due to getting stuck behind noobs in slow cars in yellows.  In fact, we lost 40 seconds on one lap in the last 20 mins under yellow to the team we were chasing down.    So, if I can safely pass a slow car prior to a yellow I will.

I have to ask the collective audience: Is this comment really in the spirit of Lemons? The rage at not winning; the distain for newcomers; the pain of 40 seconds of his time? Do we want Lemons to be like SCCA?

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

I really hate that I inadvertently started this.  I really was just stating what I have noticed at most of the Midwest races is that everyone ends up behind the the Simca or X1/9 or similar.  Those that passed said car end up at the spot 79-95 behind said car when the 12 lap full course yellow is finally over...three wide...working their way to the front.  In the end, I find it relatively hard to believe that gains something but I am not a real racer.

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

Nothing was started, nor am I a real racer.

My original statement was dickish... Just clarifying. smile

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

I may have misunderstood your concern. Are you saying that you have been stuck behind cars during a yellow flag that fail to keep up with the cars ahead of them? If that's what you mean, I apologize: you have a right to be annoyed. I thought you were unhappy about being 30 feet behind the car you were chasing rather than 15 feet. Half a lap is a real problem for sure. I have a slow car, but I never found it hard to keep up with traffic during a yellow flag, so I didn't picture the problem you were talking about.
And putting on the brakes just because you see a yellow flag is ridiculous.

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

Correct.  There were instances (several) where certain cars would drive 25mph under caution.  But even a slow C class car under a shorter lived full course yellow can cost you 30 secs in a lap compared to a competitor who is not stuck behind the slow train.  It may seem inconsequential in the moment, but there are a couple of races we have been involved with where that can be the difference in the race. 

FWIW, Phil will tell you that 99% of us shouldn't worry about that and worry more about faster pit times and less black flags.  We're feeling like we're getting into the 1% as we've minimized our pit stop times, lengthened our stints, try to drive clean, etc.  We're trying to win races with a 325e, we need to eek out every second.  So my perspective is really probably "not the typical Lemons idea of racing".  Sorry to hijack this thread.

fiatony2000 wrote:

I may have misunderstood your concern. Are you saying that you have been stuck behind cars during a yellow flag that fail to keep up with the cars ahead of them? If that's what you mean, I apologize: you have a right to be annoyed. I thought you were unhappy about being 30 feet behind the car you were chasing rather than 15 feet. Half a lap is a real problem for sure. I have a slow car, but I never found it hard to keep up with traffic during a yellow flag, so I didn't picture the problem you were talking about.
And putting on the brakes just because you see a yellow flag is ridiculous.

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

While there are definitely situations where people slam on the brakes when they don't need to, I think this is majorly overstated. 

If you have a pack of 5 or 6 cars traveling together at identical speeds, there needs to be some slowing down if they all want to go single file and not be touching bumpers.  It's just the reality of the situation.

Things are never that rosy, though.  It's usually 5 or 6 cars going at wildly different speeds, plus a few more, with some pulling out of the pits, and some coming up from behind.  If all of these cars are going to get single file, there just has to be some major slowing down.  Or if you can see slow traffic around a turn, you may need to slow down quite a bit prior to that turn if you're going to keep from rear ending people---I've been in this situation at turn 1 at Thunderhill multiple times. 

I think back ups under yellow are just never going to go away if the track is as packed as it is at these races.  And while people hitting their brakes contributes to the problem, I think the far greater issue is just the reality of what has to happen if you have large numbers of cars needing to suddenly go single file.

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

kornfeld wrote:

While there are definitely situations where people slam on the brakes when they don't need to, I think this is majorly overstated.

I disagree.  I've personally seen it happen many times.  I heard the screech of the tires when fellow Alfa driver Greg S spun off the main straight a few years ago avoiding some moron who slammed on his brakes at the front of a line of cars accelerating down the straightaway.

It's not a big deal getting 5-6 cars lined up, and yeah, they all need to slow down a bit.  But the one at the front of the pack does not need to stand on his brakes.  That's plain dangerous, and it happens way too often.

bs

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

I completely agree, I've seen it happen many times as well.

However, to read the forums, you'd think every single incident is universally caused by someone with one or two races locking up their brakes. People are disproportionately posting these videos because they're more interesting.

I've seen way way more yellows where people get through just fine, or where people are locking up their brakes for good reason.  This has happened to me on the entrance to the esses at Sonoma, exiting turn 1 at Sonoma, exiting the carousel at Sonoma, exiting turn 1 at thunderhill,  exiting turn 3 at thunderhill...you get the idea.  If you aren't given a warning  yellow flag prior to those situations, you're stuck slamming on the brakes whether you like it or not.

And it absolutely is an issue to get 5 or 6 cars lined up when everyone is going flat out and in a bunch.  There were multiple times this weekend when I'd be entering turn 8 behind one single car.  We were already in line.  All they had to do was barely tap their brakes, and I would fly up on them and go into evasive action. This was with two cars that were already in line. I'd be yelling, "Y U BRAKE??? IT'S FLAT OUT!!!"

But of course, it isn't flat out for every car and every driver. 

If issues up ahead on track cause one driver to lift, it startles the driver on their bumper so they tap the brakes, which terrifies the person behind them, on and on. All it takes is one person lifting, and suddenly you have the illusion that someone else slammed on their brakes for no reason.

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

FWIW, the problem with jamming the brakes isnt nearly as bad as it once was, so maybe the speech given in the drivers meeting is actually helping with that.

I think that new teams are great, and very important. Most of the new teams in Texas seem to "get it" and follow along as if they do either way. I can think of one time in particular that an unassumingly new guy came to a yellow, slowed down to a crawl ( I dont have a speedo in the car I was in) and rolled around the whole track for a few laps under full course yellow. I doubt it made a difference in winning and not, but it sure bunched everyone up, and when we went green again, there was another wreck from the whole group being bunched up, causing another full course yellow. That is driver error, but still.

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Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

OKAY, I waited, but no one jumped all over this, so I WILL!!

Team Eyesore once again sets the bar high with doing the ultimate "FOUR WHEELS OFF" X2.

Glad no one was injured.

YELLOW FLAGS MEAN DO NOT PASS ANOTHER CAR AND CAUTIOUSLY AVOID THE YELLOW CAUSING INCIDENT!!! 
NOT SLOW DOWN, PER SAY. 

Great race everyone.  The Sharks had a blast.

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

MUSTANG 96 wrote:

Not sure why everybody is assuming the Camero was slamming on his brakes.

For me, it was watching the back of the Camaro lift up by 6" or so when the brake light came on. Simple as that.

TST, fool.

It's a Bunny.  With a pancake.  On its head.  Really, is it that tough?

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

Clearly, the Camero unnecessarily dynamite-ing his brakes started the chain reaction of suck that led to our car being punted off the track. The Rabbit swerving two car widths to the left was a puzzler to be sure, but seems to have simply been an overreaction done in panic.

To add to BushWacker's comment -- as you pass the yellow, there's no need to be in nose-to-tail single-file formation  You only need to be not passing the guy in front of you. It's better if you're way off to his side, or ease up alongside him with your nose at his front wheel, whatever. Lining up single file only creates problems.

Stop pile-driving your brakes when you see a yellow, people!

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

Eyesore Jay wrote:

... as you pass the yellow, there's no need to be in nose-to-tail single-file formation  You only need to be not passing the guy in front of you. It's better if you're way off to his side, or ease up alongside him with your nose at his front wheel, whatever. Lining up single file only creates problems.

Stop pile-driving your brakes when you see a yellow, people!

+1

You really just need to ease off; complete your pass, stop "racing". 

And stop treating white flags as yellows; it's okay to pass under white...

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Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

Eyesore Jay, I've had our car WAY up on two wheels because of tire on tire bank contact, but your guy took it to a whole other level.  LOL. SOO glad your car did an olly in stead of a roll.  Stellar footage.

As for yellow flags, I prefer not to have anyone up along side me, especially for long yellows, because I tend to swerve to keep temps up on the tires, plus I like to see where they are and along side is half of my position and can impede my race line upon restart/clear flag station. 
  Easy enough people, Yellow means foot eased up off the gas peddle, NOT hard on brakes, unless needed to avoid an impact.