Topic: Fuel lines inside cockpit

Our car has a high pressure fuel line in the cockpit. According to the newest rules that is a no-no.

What do the powers that be say to encasing said fuel line in a metallic liquid tight electrical conduit like the one in this link?


http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/5YH53

I like it.

Greg

1987 Alfa Milano (Bellissima since 2008), Racing since 2008 Stafford Springs,  2nd overall 2011 NJMP, 4th at NHMS 2011, 2nd at Summit 2011, Into the wall hard at Stafford Springs 2011, 2nd at Monticello 2013, 3rd at NHMS 2013, 2nd at NHMS 2016. 2nd at NJMP 2018

25,000 racing miles in 32 races in 10 years. Yes its the same motor. Tell me again how Alfas suck? Update: Big moneyshift = new motor

Re: Fuel lines inside cockpit

I'm not a judge but I do know a bit about race cars and tech, and I believe that will go over like a fart in church. 

Re-route the line, don't even bother with this solution.

Tom Lomino - Proud to be a 23x Lemons Loser, 3x Class B, and 1x IOE Winner!
Craptain, Team Farfrumwinnin - 1995 Volkswagen Golf #14
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Re: Fuel lines inside cockpit

First, what you've referred us to is NOT metallic.  It's just hose with sealable ends.

I'm not sure what Lemons HQ will say but here's a thought for you...

If the car gets wrapped around a concrete barrier or goes end-over-end down the back straight... and the sharp metal ends of the body or floor being ripped loose cut the conduit hose and the fuel line... what will be the first words out of your mouth?

The same scenario goes for a metal encasement, which is even more susceptible to cutting the hose by the actual metal of the conduit.  In 35 years, I've seen six (6) fuel cells rupture -- 4 of them punctured by the metal case that encloses the cell.  Yes, they were very hard hits and it's a rarity, but the point is, even the best equipment can fail.

I guess my real comment would be to ask, why?  Why do you have to run the fuel lines through the drivers cockpit?  Unless you completely high-center your car on a rocky shoal, with various jagged edges protruding like razor wire, running the lines under the car provides orders-of-magnitude more safety.  I've just never seen a situation where the fuel lines HAVE to be run through the passenger compartment.

John

"Age only matters if you're a cheese."  Helen Hayes

Re: Fuel lines inside cockpit

professional.dreamer wrote:

I've just never seen a situation where the fuel lines HAVE to be run through the passenger compartment.

The official rules say:

3.19: Fuel, Oil, and Coolant Lines in the Cockpit: Any fuel, oil, or coolant lines that pass through the driving compartment must be encased by heavy-duty conduit, durable steel or aluminum pipe, or strong metal plate. OE metal lines in good condition in their original location are exempt from this rule, but encasement is still recommended.

FYI, most Honda cars have the FACTORY high pressure fuel lines inside the cockpit.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: Fuel lines inside cockpit

Actually metalic liquid tight conduit is made entirely from  spirally wound mettalic core. the only way to cut it is with a hacksaw. The elastomeric cover is simply there to render it waterporoof. It is designed to protect wiring and is also tested by by the Underwriters laboritories with regards to flame, heat etc.

The stuf that is made from plastic is your run of the mill kiddie pool wiring junk you would find in somebodies back yard.

Here is the rule:

3.19: Fuel, Oil, and Coolant Lines in the Cockpit: Any fuel, oil, or coolant lines that pass through the driving compartment must be encased by heavy-duty conduit, durable steel or aluminum pipe, or strong metal plate. OE metal lines in good condition in their original location are exempt from this rule, but encasement is still recommended.

Unibody cars like our Alfa Romeo Milano a very difficult to run fuel line underneath without exposing the fuel line to sharp edges, exhaust heat, moving suspension and drivetrain parts. It is not like a front wheel drive car that has a lot of room for utility line underneath. Thats why Alfa Romeo put the line inside the car.

I apreciate all the advice though.

1987 Alfa Milano (Bellissima since 2008), Racing since 2008 Stafford Springs,  2nd overall 2011 NJMP, 4th at NHMS 2011, 2nd at Summit 2011, Into the wall hard at Stafford Springs 2011, 2nd at Monticello 2013, 3rd at NHMS 2013, 2nd at NHMS 2016. 2nd at NJMP 2018

25,000 racing miles in 32 races in 10 years. Yes its the same motor. Tell me again how Alfas suck? Update: Big moneyshift = new motor

Re: Fuel lines inside cockpit

professional.dreamer wrote:

If the car gets wrapped around a concrete barrier or goes end-over-end down the back straight... and the sharp metal ends of the body or floor being ripped loose cut the conduit hose and the fuel line... what will be the first words out of your mouth?

"I should have had a V8?"

Josh Poage
Poage Ma Thoin Racing - 1981 Fiat Brava #09 - 2009 Yee-haw It's Texas
Prison Break Racing - 1986 325e #27 - 2010 Gator-o-Rama
Poage Ma Thoin Racing - 1981 Fiat Brava #09 - 2011 Heaps in the Heart of Texas

Re: Fuel lines inside cockpit

Greg S wrote:

Actually metalic liquid tight conduit is made entirely from  spirally wound mettalic core. the only way to cut it is with a hacksaw. The elastomeric cover is simply there to render it waterporoof. It is designed to protect wiring and is also tested by by the Underwriters laboritories with regards to flame, heat etc.

The stuf that is made from plastic is your run of the mill kiddie pool wiring junk you would find in somebodies back yard.

Here is the rule:

3.19: Fuel, Oil, and Coolant Lines in the Cockpit: Any fuel, oil, or coolant lines that pass through the driving compartment must be encased by heavy-duty conduit, durable steel or aluminum pipe, or strong metal plate. OE metal lines in good condition in their original location are exempt from this rule, but encasement is still recommended.

Unibody cars like our Alfa Romeo Milano a very difficult to run fuel line underneath without exposing the fuel line to sharp edges, exhaust heat, moving suspension and drivetrain parts. It is not like a front wheel drive car that has a lot of room for utility line underneath. Thats why Alfa Romeo put the line inside the car.

I appreciate all the advice though.

That is a metal line though, right? In my Spider the metal FI lines run through the cockpit under the driver's seat along the left main body member (I hesitate to call it a rail), and I'm pretty sure the Brava is the same way. I was just going to plate over the angle between the rail and the floor, but I like the heavy conduit idea better, I think.  I'm not sure where your fuel pump is in the Alfa but in the Brava, there's an exposed rubber hose connecting the pump to the metal line beneath the car (not to mention the pump and the filter are right there too) so I need to build a little cage to protect the assembly against track debris.

That rule mentions coolant too - are you removing the heater core?

Josh Poage
Poage Ma Thoin Racing - 1981 Fiat Brava #09 - 2009 Yee-haw It's Texas
Prison Break Racing - 1986 325e #27 - 2010 Gator-o-Rama
Poage Ma Thoin Racing - 1981 Fiat Brava #09 - 2011 Heaps in the Heart of Texas

Re: Fuel lines inside cockpit

Excuse my newbie posting I don't know how to quote. We ran the car last year and I removed the entire heating and cooling module. In hindsight it would have been  very smart to have an auxillary radiator.  But the weight reduction was nice.

1987 Alfa Milano (Bellissima since 2008), Racing since 2008 Stafford Springs,  2nd overall 2011 NJMP, 4th at NHMS 2011, 2nd at Summit 2011, Into the wall hard at Stafford Springs 2011, 2nd at Monticello 2013, 3rd at NHMS 2013, 2nd at NHMS 2016. 2nd at NJMP 2018

25,000 racing miles in 32 races in 10 years. Yes its the same motor. Tell me again how Alfas suck? Update: Big moneyshift = new motor

Re: Fuel lines inside cockpit

Greg S wrote:

Actually metalic liquid tight conduit is made entirely from  spirally wound mettalic core. the only way to cut it is with a hacksaw. The elastomeric cover is simply there to render it waterporoof. It is designed to protect wiring and is also tested by by the Underwriters laboritories with regards to flame, heat etc.

The stuf that is made from plastic is your run of the mill kiddie pool wiring junk you would find in somebodies back yard.

Here is the rule:

3.19: Fuel, Oil, and Coolant Lines in the Cockpit: Any fuel, oil, or coolant lines that pass through the driving compartment must be encased by heavy-duty conduit, durable steel or aluminum pipe, or strong metal plate. OE metal lines in good condition in their original location are exempt from this rule, but encasement is still recommended.

Unibody cars like our Alfa Romeo Milano a very difficult to run fuel line underneath without exposing the fuel line to sharp edges, exhaust heat, moving suspension and drivetrain parts. It is not like a front wheel drive car that has a lot of room for utility line underneath. Thats why Alfa Romeo put the line inside the car.

I apreciate all the advice though.

Greg, encasing the fuel line as you described is fine. The one thing I'd wonder about the Grainger conduit is its resistance to degradation in the presence of gasoline--if it's solid metal inside that rubber, you should be OK. But just keep in mind that "liquid tight" doesn't always mean "fuel tight."

Re: Fuel lines inside cockpit

Thanks Nick,

I will drop a piece into a jar of gasoline and check it out.
This is where the safety engineer or lawyer chimes in about it not being intended for that usage etc. Lemon Technology is all about using stuff that is not intended for its usage.

I still have not decided though.

1987 Alfa Milano (Bellissima since 2008), Racing since 2008 Stafford Springs,  2nd overall 2011 NJMP, 4th at NHMS 2011, 2nd at Summit 2011, Into the wall hard at Stafford Springs 2011, 2nd at Monticello 2013, 3rd at NHMS 2013, 2nd at NHMS 2016. 2nd at NJMP 2018

25,000 racing miles in 32 races in 10 years. Yes its the same motor. Tell me again how Alfas suck? Update: Big moneyshift = new motor

Re: Fuel lines inside cockpit

VKZ24 wrote:

FYI, most Honda cars have the FACTORY high pressure fuel lines inside the cockpit.

VK -- My point is NOT about stock lines.  Yes, there are cars out there where the stock set-up has lines running all over the place.  My point is, in building a race car (including a Lemons car), I have never seen a situation where you HAVE to run the lines through the cockpit.  There are always safer options... and in the case of buying $125 worth of WWG tricked-out conduit, you could spend $25 and do it right under the car with steel line and steel line clamps, then spend that extra $100 on a good radiator (per the other posts and discussions).

John

"Age only matters if you're a cheese."  Helen Hayes