The new rules and how its killing Lemons... (Page 2 of 7)

Voice--Without knowing your car's specifics, I can't give any details on how your "2008" Lemons car will need to be modified to meet the new rules. Since your car was good in '08, I'd be optimistic that any investment to bring it up to snuff will be relatively small (of course, I'm a naturally optimistic guy...hence the Alfa Lemons car). If you have pix and specific concerns, I'd be happy to look at what you've got and offer advice on how to proceed. To keep the clutter down, you can email me at npon@driversdoor.com.

Nick, Voice is referring to the new rollcage specs that were released.  The way they were written have, in essence, mandated that most, if not all, roll cages need to be rebuilt. 

In this thread in post 22 is how the new rules affect cage design - http://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/viewt … 14&p=1

So...rather than put out some information on what's acceptable/what's not, we should all send you photos for a pre-tech "tech" on our cages?  If that's what you want, I guess we can all do that. {scratches head}

I have a cage that survived a roll completely intact, no damage to the driver or cage whatsoever, but now that cage may not be good enough?  Is that cage legal for SC in September?  It was legal in April. 

I also wonder now if a bolt in spec Miata cage, which is perfectly fine for SCCA spec miata racing, is not "up to snuff" to participate in a Lemons race.  If that's the case, we cannot build the car for a Lemons race.  We already have the cage.   

Maybe you and Jay need to rethink the rules a little bit.  I'm not trying to be a smart ass, but seriously-maybe you made a mistake.

Sharkbait-other sanctioning bodies have the same issues the Lemons series faces, yet the Lemons series has roll cage rules which far surpass those required by other series with much fast tracks and cars.  That's the beef here.  All of us want to be safe, but it doesn't take a front continuous hoop to accomplish that.  There should be some flexibility here. 

Grandfather clauses are nice, but we just built a cage for a car for Stafford and that car hadn't run before.  Does it get "grandfathered" in?  We have no money left to tear out the cage and rebuild it from scratch.    And it is plenty safe the way it was constructed.  It might be the best cage I've seen, double door bars already in place, extra bracing, etc.

Nick posted in the other thread.  I think most cages employ one of the three allowed designs, s that should make a lot of people relieved.  Thanks Nick. 

P.S. change your written rules to match!

Jer, yes the cage rules have been rewritten on the main rules page to clarify.

The reason I asked for specifics on Voice's cage was because I don't want to make any assumptions about "SCCA legal" specs without having the specific cages you're referencing in front of me. The folks that have sent me pix of Autopower cages so far have shown that the only real issue is the single door bar (the front hoop language has been clarified, please see the sticky at the top of Lemons Tech).

We apologize for the mid-season rules change, but Lemons is in effect a year-round thing and we saw little reason to wait to implement safety improvements. We're aware that New Orleans and New England cars have already been built, so these rules do not take effect until the Buttonwillow race. If you built a car to '08 specs for New Orleans or New England, chances are that you won't need major changes to race it the next time. The folks that have contacted me privately are facing relatively minor modifications.

I fully support the new rules.  I glanced down once at the end of the strait at Reno and I was just barely hitting 100mph before late braking into turn 2.  Paradoxically, I felt safer at Reno than I did dealing with chicanes placed next to concrete walls at Thunderhill.  However, if you're dealing with triple digit speeds, you should rethink things like harness mounts and cages.

Dying sucks and I think you should do everything reasonable to avoid it.  Even though I could barely afford it, I coughed up a bunch of money for a HANS.  I did it because even though it's fun racing, I'd rather not die while doing it.  I've got a lot of other things going on in my life that I didn't want to risk for a weekend in the desert.  So I'd rather not race at all than to race unsafe.

The only thing I don't like about the tech process is the uncertainty.  I showed up to Reno expecting to fly through tech, only to be cited for problems with the factory seat belt mounts that passed tech at every race since Altamont '07.  If there's going to be a change in standards, Friday afternoon before a race is not the time to find out about it.  It's not that expensive to make the changes, but with short notice everyone tries to figure out how to fool the inspectors rather than make their car actually safer.  Finding out a few months before Buttonwillow is more acceptable, and I'm glad they're being published now.

Our car had the OEM tire diameter (FWIW) and our speedo claimed that we were *just* hitting 100 at the end of the esses if we braked as late as possible.  Some cars were a little faster than us.

Nick, I understand that some rules-creep may be inevitable over time, but from our perspective it's hard not to be paranoid.  Almost all race series start out with simple rules and evolve into quagmires over time.  These latest changes sure LOOK like creep for creep's sake and not for making a truly better/safer race.  But if you guys are truly committed to keeping Lemons obtainable for the average guy, then I will be tickled to race in it as long as I have a pulse (although *that* isn't specifically required...yet!).

Hell, I'll even kiss your's and Jay's boots like in this photo if that's what it takes to keep the series going!  Just don't wear these costumes, OK?

I saw 92 in the caddy just before the 180 turn at the end of the front stretch...one of the other guys driving said he saw triple digits.  70-80 on the sunset strip...

Believe me I understand where you guys are coming from. Hell, my team needs to update our car to meet the new rules as well. For what it's worth, while most of the concern/paranoia seems to come from visions of having to rip out everything you've spent good money on and start from scratch, to my knowledge that's never really happened.

There have been instances of cages being built improperly (bad design, materials, assembly) that have required extensive reconstruction, but cages that were CORRECTLY built to an earlier spec typically should not require much work to bring it up to the current standard. The single-door-bar Autopower cage is a good example--it's a well-built unit, and adding a second door bar to it shouldn't be particularly difficult or expensive. (No less difficult or expensive than changing those fried rod bearings, anyway.)

The moral is, if you've met the rules thus far, you shouldn't have too much trouble keeping pace with the latest round of changes. (Now, if we had decided to mandate DOM tubing, that would have been another story....)

I have been part of the series since Thunderhill 07, and what has been gnawing at me time and time again as the rules are updated and updated is very simple:

A Lemons car can no longer be reasonably built in your driveway with a sawzall and cordless drill.

We are at a point now that without highly specialized skills and equipment, a decent shop with decent tools, and/or a lot of money putting together a Lemons car - competitive or not - is unattainable. 

AND, there's no two ways about it, these rules have increased the cost of building a car from scratch.  There's simply more stuff to buy.  If you're a new driver the cost of the stuff you wear to sit in the car is daunting.  This is not such a big deal really, but it is going to have one very negative side effect - people are much, much less likely to bring odd ball unreliable cars.

If I've put $4500 in prep into a car, I"m not going to choose a Renault Fuego.  It's going to fail, and with it my investment.  'throw away' cars will become a thing of 'way back when' stories, which it too bad.  It may be necessary, but it's too bad.  Because there's two Fuegos in Portland for $999.... just sayin....

Nick (and Jay if he keeps up with this) - you guys are doing a hell of a job trying to hold this thing together here.  We all recognize you guys started this as a whim and it's blown up in your faces.  I hope everyone knows that while we all go to three races at most, you guys do this all over the country 10 (?) times a year, and have to deal with planning it not just building a car and showing up to race.  But the fears of this turning into an over-regulated spec-ish race are real to us racers, and probably pretty founded based on what has happened to other popular race series in the past.

I guess my point is this - these latest rules are neither unreasonable nor uncalled for.  It does not seem to me any of the rule changes have been overwhelming.  But, taken as a whole over a fairly short period of time (2ish years), this has gone from a hack it together in your driveway as best you can for the fun of it race, to a very, very serious undertaking.  While I'm still playing with the idea of building a third Lemons car, I don't think building the next one will be near as much fun as the last two have been because I'll be too worried about messing up my $500 car.  And that doesn't make any sense.