The 24 Hours of Lemons Forums → Lemons Tech → The new rules and how its killing Lemons...
I'm all for the rule changes. Personally, I've been trying to convince my team to add a second door bar since Thill '07. We always save it for last, then we don't do it because it's not required. We literally have a bar bent to fit laying on the garage floor that we just need to weld into place. Suck it teammate bitches, I told you so.
Oh yea, and thanks for including us in the new tire rules, we're flattered!
Honestly the bill I face putting together a car I got for free to race for 14 hours puts me in a downer. It was possible last year to attempt to afford it, but not with the costs I'm looking at with the stricter cages, exhaust (several leaks...), harness, belts, safety clothes, etc etc. A lot of cash for a junk race. And as some one else said, really gives the series to the guys with full shop support and deeper pockets.
And especially with these times is it harder to afford the higher build costs..
The Laser may just end up being a dirt car instead of living gloriously at Lemons. We can put it together with a kick ass theme and mechanically sound enough to run, but a custom cage with the new specs suites and seat belts seem to be really adding too much to our broke-ass-teenager-plates.
And about safety: Demo Derbys let guys run in figure 8s at high speed with less safety. Shoot, they have races where you purposely roll the car over. Find slower tracks if speed is of the issue. I understand the reasons, but don't entirely agree.
Though very tired and this all may be confusing in spots.
What a bunch of drama. Some how in life, right in the middle of our personal pursuits of happiness the MAN steps in. Often times the MAN is the insurance Nazi, Fed or a Cop. Maybe we could get excessive insurance requirements proclaimed Unconstitutional. In the mean time, start figureing out how to get your car up to spec.
When I first read the new roll cage requirements I was a bit concerned too. Then I saw Nicks post of picks and ours cage were right there.
From a practical standpoint, I encourge people to use bolt in Autopower cages for simplicity and their acceptance in other series like SCCA & NASA. They are more expensive than some options but in the over all build cost + simplicity and time savings, they are a better investment than saya Jegster cage. Both cages I have been involovedwith have double door bars on the dirver's side. With the growing popularity of Lemons, maybe Autopower will offer a double door br option.
I've seen more than one LeMon car that should not have passe tech but has done so more than once.
Nick and Everyone else, regarding the Tech Inspection Crap shoot, maybe you guys needs to find a few shops around the various venues to do Pre-race inspections.
The two cars I have been involved in building look like they are probably good for the new rules. We'll get them checked this week in New Orleans.
Peope can complain about the new rules all theywant. I have always felt like Lemons could be one major accidnet away from history. I'd prefer to see it stick around.
Regarding Lemons and Spec racing, I felt our safety standards were already pretty close. Use DOM cage and you almost have a Spec Miata.
Our themes might improve if we weren't so busy trying to build safe and reliable cars. Of course I strive to break 100 too.
Night all.
A Lemons car can no longer be reasonably built in your driveway with a sawzall and cordless drill.
Add a welder to your list and yes you can.
A member on my team spent $60 on a community college course and $400 on a welder. Now he is on the verge of building his 2nd Lemons car in his driveway/attached garage. Another guy that I know (friend of a friend via the internet) built his own hydraulic pipe bender to make a Lemons custom cage.
Sure, its a hell of a lot easier to whip out the Mastercard but with some reading, hardwork and a little luck its not an impossibility.
troubleonwheels wrote:A Lemons car can no longer be reasonably built in your driveway with a sawzall and cordless drill.
Add a welder to your list and yes you can.
A member on my team spent $60 on a community college course and $400 on a welder. Now he is on the verge of building his 2nd Lemons car in his driveway/attached garage. Another guy that I know (friend of a friend via the internet) built his own hydraulic pipe bender to make a Lemons custom cage.
Sure, its a hell of a lot easier to whip out the Mastercard but with some reading, hardwork and a little luck its not an impossibility.
agreed... our cage was built using a pipe bender we bought on ebay and a little help with a few of teh difficult bends from a local exhaust shop who had a much better bender (we kept creasing)... DOM tubing & bender included, we built the cage for around half what it cost to buy it... and got the satisfaction of knowing we did it on our own...
Then, you find places like this and you can skip the pipe bender
http://www.rollcagecomponents.com/
Prebent, preknotched and you would be surprised at the cars they have templates for, I was.
I have a suggestion for keeping oddball cars in the game---increase the cash prize for the Effluency award, and add cash for the most with the least prize. The number of competitors has gone up dramatically since you started, so there should be a lot more money to work with. Making the effuency prize $3,000 and adding a $1,000 prize for most with least would only add $3,000 to your cost. Heck, that's only three additional cars. Stafford alone is going from 25 cars to 70 cars in one year, so there's $45,000 more in revenue from ONE RACE. I'm sure insurance costs are higher, and grow variably with the number of cars, but still...if effluency is your goal, reward it.
troubleonwheels wrote:A Lemons car can no longer be reasonably built in your driveway with a sawzall and cordless drill.
Add a welder to your list and yes you can.
A member on my team spent $60 on a community college course and $400 on a welder. Now he is on the verge of building his 2nd Lemons car in his driveway/attached garage. Another guy that I know (friend of a friend via the internet) built his own hydraulic pipe bender to make a Lemons custom cage.
Sure, its a hell of a lot easier to whip out the Mastercard but with some reading, hardwork and a little luck its not an impossibility.
It's definitely not an impossibility, and I'm not even sure I'm saying it's a bad thing. Some of the hack work I saw in 07 was unbelievable. We have eliminated the teams with more heart than brains, though, and for some reason that feels a lot like the 'spirit' of Lemons to me. We bought a used four point cage of Craigslist and bolted it to the car, hacked in a seat, and we were ready to race. Not any more.
I have a suggestion for keeping oddball cars in the game---increase the cash prize for the Effluency award, and add cash for the most with the least prize. The number of competitors has gone up dramatically since you started, so there should be a lot more money to work with. Making the effuency prize $2,000 and adding a $1,000 prize for most with least would only add $3,000 to your cost. Heck, that's only three additional cars. Stafford alone is going from 25 cars to 70 cars in one year, so there's $45,000 more in revenue from ONE RACE. I'm sure insurance costs are higher, and grow variably with the number of cars, but still...if effluency is your goal, reward it.
Quoted for genius. heck, all you have to do is lower Nick's salary and we're there!
This would be motivation to build a -real- Lemons car, none of this competitive stuff.
RobL wrote:Nick_LeMonsHQ wrote:If you built a car to the current Lemons rules, I don't see why you couldn't use that car for years of competition.
But, as a competitor, there are no guarentees of even getting accepted to any races so you might build a car for nothing. Sure there are things that you can do to stack the odds, but when it comes right down to it - you are asking your teammates for money and time and because someone fuked up the application no one gets to drive. And don't say it doesn't happen - I know of at least one team that built a car and wasn't accepted.
The safest way to proceed is to wait until you're accepted to start building. (Actually, the safest way to proceed would be to bring a Renault Fuego Turbo and have all the team members dress as Napoleon. It's not a secret; that will result in virtually GUARANTEED entry, so don't say that I didn't tell 'ya how to do it.)
Yes, that crunches your build time down, but it is possible to create a Lemons car in ten weeks. If you decide to get a headstart, you indeed do expose yourself to the risk of not getting accepted. I'm not sure how to respond to that except for "that's life." But as a footnote, while we have had guys build a car and then not get accepted, we have had those same guys come back with a better team concept and get in the next time around.
I built the caltrans/grinch/frogger is 10 days Due to a stupid Jetta my buddies said to get that block broke off when I pulled the oil pan!!
gmatus wrote:The only thing I don't like about the tech process is the uncertainty. I showed up to Reno expecting to fly through tech, only to be cited for problems with the factory seat belt mounts that passed tech at every race since Altamont '07. If there's going to be a change in standards, Friday afternoon before a race is not the time to find out about it.
I completely agree, and this is a problem we're aware of. A big challenge for us is that we get the majority of tech inspectors from the area surrounding the track--in other words, we don't travel with the same squad everywhere. This inevitably creates variance from event to event--our goal is of course to have everything be the same, but there are occasionally things that slip through the cracks. I guess you'll just have to take my word for it that we do our best to train the tech guys to a single set of standards. Hopefully, we're improving in this regard.
My caltrans/grinch/frogger car didn't pass tech after 5 other races due to the different guys tech
But initially I didn't think the stupid car would last this long!!!
anyone in the bay area I can help out with door bars if needed cost of tubing plus a couple of bucks for electricity and such
call me
chris overzet
Fabrication Required Transport
925-382-1058 7am-9pm
In our off road racing SCORE has you bring your car to them and tech it .ANd charges $300
In Soviet Russia, car techs you.
In Soviet Russia, car techs you.
Don't say that too much around here, I know there is a team fielding a Lada at one of the races this year.
In Soviet Russia, car techs you.
TF2 player by any chance?
anyone in the bay area I can help out with door bars if needed cost of tubing plus a couple of bucks for electricity and such
call me
chris overzet
Fabrication Required Transport
925-382-1058 7am-9pm
Chris does excellent work.
Ditto for the guys down in the South Bay Area (I'm in Morgan Hill). Adding a second straight door bar is probably a 30 minute job with minimal effort (depending on what kind of mess you bring to start with). Weld-in or bolt-in (sleeved) -- both pretty easy.
A second door bar is no reason for anyone not to compete or, for that matter, to even bitch about a simple rules change. With the clarification that Nick issued, there really isn't a huge change in what everyone understood to be the correct roll-cage anyway. If you did have a different understanding, then your cage probably wasn't too safe to begin with.
John Condren
Team 31
john@team31.com ...or... professional.dreamer@yahoo.com
Mulry wrote:In Soviet Russia, car techs you.
TF2 player by any chance?
I was always more of a TFC guy. Haven't played recently though.
All the cages I build are 1 3/4 .120 DOM on all my cages due to the factor of I build rockcrawler and desert and are stuff is "When you roll Not if your roll !"
One consistent hoop is a annoying for the factor of some times the tube doesn't want to go where you want .
We sleeve all sorts of tubing in our rigs for that reason but when we do sleeve we slide tubing inside tube, drill holes in outside tube and weld thoose holesto inside tubing
IE 1 3/4 .120 wall tubing with a piece of 1 1/2 .120 inside for about 6 inches or more in both directions.
LOL
Matt -- Save the damn horse and beat "Voice of Reason"
John
Matt -- Save the damn horse and beat "Voice of Reason"
John
John... this horse died a LONG time ago 
"Voice of Reason" just needs a venue to bitch... and a bunch of people to argue with. If you argue, they will come
EDIT: And on a side note... I was convinced "VOR" was Erik from my team... until I found out he was out of town
Not that VOR's registration date and number of posts screamed sock puppet or anything...
Sounds like the better path would have been to go for slower races rather than having to spend more $$$ on items to make faster cars safer.
Guess it leaves space for another "cheap" racing series to come in though...
The 24 Hours of Lemons Forums → Lemons Tech → The new rules and how its killing Lemons...
