Topic: Question about vehicle weight rule

Hey! I'm a newcomer to Lemons who's thinking of organizing a team and entering a Lemons race in the not that far future and I have a question regarding the manufacture stated curb weight rule.  I work at a truck salvage yard and a number of my co workers are very interested in starting a team based around a kind of 'manic trucker' vibe and some sort of pickup truck with either a ford SD gas V8 or a twin turbo diesel.  I've got a good plan for pricing the whole deal out and getting all the needed parts while also maintaining a $500 budget, but that's not really what my question has to do with.

The vehicle we're using is an 89 ford ranger with a blown motor and junked trans a guy who works in the office is selling for $200 and while we have a choice of donor vehicles for the industrial big block/trans or diesel engine that we could purchase and make our money back parting out.  There's only two problems with the ranger, none of the engines we'd like to use will phisically fit in it without us taking the whole body off and widening the frame substantially (nothing we don't have the tools for or capability of doing) and the wight of the engine we're leaning towards using (71 F800 with a 534 SD v8 being sold for  $600 and we could easily make that money back on it parting it out)  far exceeds what the poor ranger could handle on it's own.  To address that issue we were thinking we'd take the axles and springs from the F800 and put them on the ranger while also significantly bulking up the rangers frame.  Alternatively we were thinking of taking the F800s cab off, shortening the frame down to ranger length and putting the body of the ranger on it, pulling out the majority of the truck's springs to get it lowered down to a not totally unsafe height.

As you can probably extrapolate this raises the question of it being legal or not because either way we'd be fielding a vehicle that would exceed the 4200 pound manufactures curb weight rule.  Using the F800s frame would be the easier option but then the truck would weight a considerable amount more then 4200 pounds.  The eton auto the truck has alone probably weights a good ton and half, not to mention the solid 1000 or so pounds of engine lol.

We'd love to build something legendary and at the salvage we have all the tools and know how to build something like this, but before we even get to the stage of actually asking the organizers I thought we should probably seek some input on the forum here.

(Of course we'd love to just take a $500 beater grain truck out on the track but I don't think that would fly too well lol)

Re: Question about vehicle weight rule

HebronSpecial wrote:

We'd love to build something legendary and at the salvage we have all the tools and know how to build something like this, but before we even get to the stage of actually asking the organizers I thought we should probably seek some input on the forum here.

If you ask for a waiver, you would likely get it.  If you are asking for a waiver have a well written plan how you plan to make it safe.

The curb weight rule is there for a couple of reasons but the biggest one is there are cars with sub-ton curb weights on the same track as you.  The physics involved if you t-bone a Fiat X1/9 with a 4-ton grain truck are not favorable.

The second issue is the track safety equipment and vehicles.  On equipment, the same rule of physics applied to your 3+ ton body on cast iron frame dump truck hitting a barrier and expecting it to do its job of absorbing energy...not likely to be effective.  As far as vehicles...can they get it on the flatbed (this has been an issue with the LeMonslimo).

3 (edited by dale.furno 2016-04-07 01:37 PM)

Re: Question about vehicle weight rule

The amount of unsprung weight in an f800 axle will be not so good for the track,  aside from that, the f800 being like 30 inches wider than a ranger may be a problem. You may have issues finding suitable tires, and depending how much of that f800 you use, one may argue that it is not a 4 wheeled vehicle. see rule section 2.1

if you can shoehorn it together with a lighter axle, (dana 60/70) things may go easier.

I bet an f800 axle has a scary amount of braking power with a ranger on top of it.

where you located?

Re: Question about vehicle weight rule

I would be sure to contact Lemons HQ and go through your entire plan in great detail with them.  I actually expect them to be more concerned with the modifications you will have to do to the truck to fit the engine than overall weight.

Racing 4 Nickels - 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
2011 SHOWROOM-SCHLOCK SHOOTOUT  IOE Winner
2012 The Chubba Cheddar Enduro Class C winner
Facebook Page

Re: Question about vehicle weight rule

OnkelUdo wrote:

If you ask for a waiver, you would likely get it.  If you are asking for a waiver have a well written plan how you plan to make it safe.

The curb weight rule is there for a couple of reasons but the biggest one is there are cars with sub-ton curb weights on the same track as you.  The physics involved if you t-bone a Fiat X1/9 with a 4-ton grain truck are not favorable.

The second issue is the track safety equipment and vehicles.  On equipment, the same rule of physics applied to your 3+ ton body on cast iron frame dump truck hitting a barrier and expecting it to do its job of absorbing energy...not likely to be effective.  As far as vehicles...can they get it on the flatbed (this has been an issue with the LeMonslimo).

Good points, we're still giving the issue of other driver safety allot of thought and (much to the dismay of some of the crews more mad max inspired members) we've had to do a couple preliminary re-designs to get away from making something totally destructive.  So far we're thinking of cutting the front end of the frame down to as short as possible to still hold the front suspension and engine then replacing what we cut off with frame from the ranger + truck bumper crumple pieces to try and create a more effective crumple zone after the bumper. The truck as it is now isn't really capable of anything over 60 mph at full heat gauge spinning bore (although we'd love to bolt some turbo's onto it for more zoom zoom)

In terms of actual weight the truck would probably end up being around 6000 pounds fully fueled once we shortened the frame down to ranger length and pulled the bulk of the springs, although rough estimation of weight isn't really my area of expertise.

dale.furno wrote:

The amount of unsprung weight in an f800 axle will be not so good for the track,  aside from that, the f800 being like 30 inches wider than a ranger may be a problem. You may have issues finding suitable tires, and depending how much of that f800 you use, one may argue that it is not a 4 wheeled vehicle. see rule section 2.1
if you can shoehorn it together with a lighter axle, (dana 60/70) things may go easier.
I bet an f800 axle has a scary amount of braking power with a ranger on top of it.
where you located?

I don't quite recall what the weight rating for the rear axle was but I think it was ,bizarrely given the nearly 9 liter power plant, on the lighter side for an F800.  The F800 is single axle thankfully so there shouldn't be any trouble regarding it being a non-4 wheeled vehicle.  We were planning on just widening the ranger with the help of some sheet metal from the F800 or possibly buying another junk ranger to cut the middle out of.  It's been discussed that we'd go find axles from a 1 ton pickup or similar due to their more race friendly (compared to a 22,000 pound beefcake axle) gearing.  Tires shouldn't be a problem, we've got more then we know what to do with lol

We're located in the Canadian maritimes

Re: Question about vehicle weight rule

You're from Trailer Park Boys country. find a 75 new yorker, make a shitmobile.

Re: Question about vehicle weight rule

6000 lbs might give HQ some pause especially considering that there will be a few Austin Minis at that race (assuming The Ridge).  A 2+ ton weight disparity might be cause for concern to them.  You will definitely want to email jay@24hoursoflemons and Evil John john@evilgeniusracing.com with a detailed plan before you break ground on this.  The limo weighed about 6k so there is some precedence here.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita" 
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)
1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless)
1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites) (Sold -> Houston.  Gone and forgotten)

Re: Question about vehicle weight rule

dale.furno wrote:

You're from Trailer Park Boys country. find a 75 new yorker, make a shitmobile.

A 79 ford LTD 7.3 idi with twin turbo's running wmo was discussed at one point but decided against when the vehicle in question turned out to be have been stolen

cheseroo wrote:

6000 lbs might give HQ some pause especially considering that there will be a few Austin Minis at that race (assuming The Ridge).  A 2+ ton weight disparity might be cause for concern to them.  You will definitely want to email jay@24hoursoflemons and Evil John john@evilgeniusracing.com with a detailed plan before you break ground on this.  The limo weighed about 6k so there is some precedence here.

Once the team and I formalize the plans a bit more I plan on sending emails their way.  We're not totally committed to the idea but we're certain that whatever we have is going to have big dirty stacks on it and is going to be pretty far out

Re: Question about vehicle weight rule

Just email Chief Lemons Perpetrator Jay Lamm and ask him if he'll give a weight waiver for this project, preferably before you spend any money or cut any metal.

Re: Question about vehicle weight rule

I hope you guys figure out something that will work. Lemons needs more DIESEL DOMINATION!

Planet Express
"IOE" "C Win" 4834.701 Race Miles and counting
Toyocedes
"Least Southern Pickup Truck" "IOE" "C win" "C win (again?)"

Re: Question about vehicle weight rule

Ford''s 534 SD motor is a gas engine and not a diesel.  It's a big lump of cast iron that was designed for  medium duty trucks and was never installed in a car or light truck. The thing weighs well over 1300+ lbs when you include the trans The Ranger came with a 2.3L or 2.8, 2.9, 3.0, & a 4.0 engine. try to find one of these or try a 5.0L V8 if you must. But you can't make a PSD or a SD engine in a Ranger safe to drive or safe for your fellow racers. 

I owned a '89 Ranger and it can be made to handle considering it's a truck. I even had a friend who worked for Saleen Racing back in the late 80's when the SCCA had a PRO road racing series for the "mini" pickups.   

Link to a YouTube race I was at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnSYj1hAPs0

Re: Question about vehicle weight rule

jimbbski wrote:

Ford''s 534 SD motor is a gas engine and not a diesel.  It's a big lump of cast iron that was designed for  medium duty trucks and was never installed in a car or light truck. The thing weighs well over 1300+ lbs when you include the trans The Ranger came with a 2.3L or 2.8, 2.9, 3.0, & a 4.0 engine. try to find one of these or try a 5.0L V8 if you must. But you can't make a PSD or a SD engine in a Ranger safe to drive or safe for your fellow racers. 

I owned a '89 Ranger and it can be made to handle considering it's a truck. I even had a friend who worked for Saleen Racing back in the late 80's when the SCCA had a PRO road racing series for the "mini" pickups.   

Link to a YouTube race I was at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnSYj1hAPs0

We're torn between a big dirty diesel or the 534 and the weight issue is why we're thinking of putting the ranger on the F800 frame.  I know I saw someone on a forum somewhere with a 7.3 powerstroke in a square body ranger before so that idea isn't totally out of the realm of possibility.  I'll have to look into the rules for running waste motor oil because if we go that route we're definitely going to be running as close to runaway as we can and we need as much blue haze as we can get.

Just running a stock ranger seems rather pedestrian when we have access to so much big iron and after hours free time.

Re: Question about vehicle weight rule

ZOMG MINITRUCKS.

That race looks like magic.

Re: Question about vehicle weight rule

ninjacoco wrote:

ZOMG MINITRUCKS.

That race looks like magic.

I wonder what its like being the Toyota filling in a Jeep Comanche sandwich?

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i34/dfurno2003/ATN%20Thor_zps5wjca2n4.png

15 (edited by Guildenstern 2016-04-08 08:16 AM)

Re: Question about vehicle weight rule

Start with the ranger chassis, put engine amidship low, cab over, DOMINATE.

Alternatively, I bet if you think real hard you can find a way to make that engine work on the ranger chassis as-is. Even if you have to have the exhaust headers sitting over the front tires. (would that count as fenders?)

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: Question about vehicle weight rule

Mid engine ranger with 4bt or other small 4cyl diesel? if you show up with a 4bt I think they will let you slide on the $500 rule...???

The Cosmonaughts - 86/88 MR2 with 1MZ V6

Re: Question about vehicle weight rule

cpl rampage wrote:

Mid engine ranger with 4bt or other small 4cyl diesel? if you show up with a 4bt I think they will let you slide on the $500 rule...???

It doesn't matter that a 4BT is worth twice a 6BT. Show up with one of those diesel-powered paint shakers and you will slide through BS inspection even if it was mounted in a Ferrari. 4BTs all come out of industrial water pumps, backhoes and FritoLay vans afterall...

Low Road Racing:  Mustang II/Sunbird/Spirit AMX

We will not compromise our morals and build anything but a class C car.
"You take the high road, we'll take the low."

Re: Question about vehicle weight rule

If we were going to go the diesel route we'd probably opt for a 7.3 powerstroke or similar because wrecked F series trucks that are fairly new can be bought on the cheep around here and we wouldn't have any problem making the money back parting one out just to take the engine and trans, but depending on how the cookie crumbles a 4bt might be worth looking into...

A perkins diesel v8  or a TC serries inline 6 would be rather entertaining too

Re: Question about vehicle weight rule

A 6.0 Powerstroke would be very believable for Lemons money.

Re: Question about vehicle weight rule

EriktheAwful wrote:

A 6.0 Powerstroke would be very believable for Lemons money.

We could probably rustle up a written off service truck at auction for around 1000-2000 bucks, sell the service bed for around that same price with a bit of touch up work and have a complete drive train if that was the route we end up going