1 (edited by m610 2016-05-24 05:12 PM)

Topic: How to handle tank slappers?

I had the pleasure of watching an extended tank slapper last weekend. An MR2 coming out of the T11-13 sequence provided the entertainment. As far as racing incidents go, this one was like a full-length feature film. It seemed to go on forever and only ended once the car was down to maybe 20 mph.

It didn't look like a lot of fun for the driver, so when my turn comes I don't want to have that fun, so how do I get out of it with just a simple, messy, slide on my resume?

My understanding is a tank slapper involves over-correction by the driver, but seeing how far sideways the MR2 was, he needed all the correction he could get. Could the solution be to not go for so much correction, as if you thought you could recover the car, and instead settle for a controlled slide, and once the car slows enough continue on as normal?

I figure unwinding the wheel earlier would help, but the left-right waggle is pretty quick.

Loss of rear wheel grip is obviously a factor, and the only way I can think of to remedy that is to dump more weight on the rear, and that would involve more throttle, which seems very counter-intuitive in spin-like situations.

Mike

Re: How to handle tank slappers?

Since the term come from motorcycles I will give you the motorcycle answer...which likely will not apply on a MR car.

Counter steer (front wheel into the turn) and counter balance (lean out of the turn) and either power out of it or use only rear brake.

My EX500 race bike ended up in a tank slapper an this worked perfectly

What you are likely talking about is the massive left, right, left right tail wag from slide, overcorrect, slide opposite, overcorrecti, etc.  In my uneducated experience, for that car, turn into the slide and correct with mild application of throttle.  alternatively, go two feet in and just let it happen.

Re: How to handle tank slappers?

Way easier to deal with in a fwd car, just mash the gas and shift the weight to the back of the car.  MR you would have to figure out why lost grip first and try to reverse that, but not too much.  If its from accelerating to hard you let off the gas some to stop the wheel spin, if its because you hit the brakes too hard and made the back to light, you have to let up on the brakes to shift the weight back to regain traction, but you do to much you just continue the spin.

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4 (edited by billybobster 2016-05-24 08:39 PM)

Re: How to handle tank slappers?

My experience in successful spin recovery, when I have been successful, has always been in my track day Miata, a model that is very forgiving and feels like it's self recovering at times. For me, it's been about getting weight on the back wheels. If it's under braking, modulating the brake pedal to get weight to the rear for bite while steering to get the front to follow the rear. If it's under power, feeding on the power to get weight to rear for bite while follow steering.

Not saving it is an option I tried once. Crank the wheel away from where the rear is going and jam on the brakes to get the car to spin in a tight circle and not crash-drift hit the approaching tire wall. Either through luck or intention, I spun past it. A friend was once in a crash-drift towards the outside tire wall at T8 at Sonoma. He did above technique to intentionally spin into the huge grass area on the inside. Got a big talking to by the HPDE safety steward but he didn't bend his car. His action was my inspiration for my intentional tight spin.

I wish there was a wet skidpad around the SF area where I could try practicing spin management in laboratory conditions.

25X Loser - Delinquent Racing - '86 Rust-Tite Merkur - 9 years (when do I get to stop?).

Re: How to handle tank slappers?

Anyone have video,  in or outside of a slap "event" car?

I have in car video of being hit in the LR door creating a brief neon induced tank slapper (we have since moved up to go pro from china dash cam)  tire noise is the sideways neon, may be seen lurking in a mirror.

https://youtu.be/kak2xaCO9-s?t=8m57s

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6 (edited by Sir Thomas Crapper 2016-05-25 09:11 AM)

Re: How to handle tank slappers?

In car.  I crested a hill, got over a little too far and it broke loose at the top over curbing/grass.  this was from a little too much driving in the rearview, as a bunch of fast cars were behind me.

Maybe 85/90mph.

Most of the fun starts at around 1:00.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxbnfSQ8R2s

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Re: How to handle tank slappers?

Team Infinniti wrote:

Anyone have video,  in or outside of a slap "event" car?

I have in car video of being hit in the LR door creating a brief neon induced tank slapper (we have since moved up to go pro from china dash cam)  tire noise is the sideways neon, may be seen lurking in a mirror.

https://youtu.be/kak2xaCO9-s?t=8m57s


That looked like fun.  Great job staying on track!

Silent But Deadly Racing-  Ricky Bobby's Laughing Clown Malt Liquor Thunderbird , Datsun 510, 87 Mustang (The Race Team Formerly Known as Prince), 72 Pinto Squire waggy, Parnelli Jones 67 Galaxie, Turbo Coupe Surf wagon.(The Surfin Bird), Squatting Dogs In Tracksuits,  Space Pants!  Roy Fuckin Kent and The tribute to a tribute to a tribute THUNDERBIRD/ SUNDAHBADOH!

8 (edited by Team Infinniti 2016-05-25 11:00 AM)

Re: How to handle tank slappers?

Sir Thomas Crapper wrote:
Team Infinniti wrote:

Anyone have video,  in or outside of a slap "event" car?

I have in car video of being hit in the LR door creating a brief neon induced tank slapper (we have since moved up to go pro from china dash cam)  tire noise is the sideways neon, may be seen lurking in a mirror.

https://youtu.be/kak2xaCO9-s?t=8m57s


That looked like fun.  Great job staying on track!

Thanks, upon reflection that was about the same speed as your issue, for reference, the car in front ( entire 10min video) is Boom Pow with the boss himself driving, I was trying like hell to learn something...


Good catch, our car crests the same spot a little light in back but steer with it till landing, usually a giggle moment till the next turn where I reflect on how badly I suck at that hairpin turn.


Saying that


Is it better trying to Hero it out or just concede and safely spin?  Personal habit, from years of dirt circles filled with hillbillies trying to pit me every other lap, is to save.

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring 6th-PBIR Lemons 9th - Charlotte Chump  CrashnBurn 9th
Sebring 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Trans Fail 16th
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Daytona 13th - Charlotte 9th - Sebring 2nd-Charlotte 25th broken brakes - Road Atlanta 14 10th-Daytona 14  58th- Humid TT 19th Judges' Choice!

Re: How to handle tank slappers?

A mid-engine car with a short wheel base like the MR2 is easy to get into a snap-spin situation and recovery is usually futile. 
In most any car, the problem is your butt-o-meter is telling you to lift, but when you do, the tail gets lighter and you are facing the wrong way in short order.  Steer into the skid, and don't lift!  If you can't catch it quick, and the angle is too great, both feet in!

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
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Re: How to handle tank slappers?

billybobster wrote:

<snip>

I wish there was a wet skidpad around the SF area where I could try practicing spin management in laboratory conditions.

Yup - I'd like to learn mucho more about how to handle 'off-nominal' situations like that, since otherwise I'm only going to learn piecemeal, the hard way.

Post up here if you find such a beast.

Re: How to handle tank slappers?

fleming95 wrote:
billybobster wrote:

<snip>

I wish there was a wet skidpad around the SF area where I could try practicing spin management in laboratory conditions.

Yup - I'd like to learn mucho more about how to handle 'off-nominal' situations like that, since otherwise I'm only going to learn piecemeal, the hard way.

Post up here if you find such a beast.

Hmm. we just use the cold wet stuff and don't put on our snow tires...

Said in jest but maybe that is why I have so many issue with the driving dynamics of FWD cars at/over the limit.  I have 25 years of driving RWD exclusively (unless driving someone else's car) as a daily driver and that included a lot NWI winters leaving 2 hours before the plows find my street.  The throttle modulation to keep the rear sliding the right amount is kind of second nature.

Re: How to handle tank slappers?

I'm of the mindset that if such an event goes on for more than a second or two the best solution for you AND the people around you is "Both Feet In".  When you start skidding under breaking your trajectory becomes a LOT more predictable to everyone else. As long as you continue to fight it you are putting everyone around you at much higher risk.

Lets face it, if you were that good you wouldn't be fighting it for any length of time anyway. You would catch it on the first or second wiggle and motor on.

If a situation ever gets to the point where you think to yourself "Hmmm.." Its already too late. Both feet in.

Re: How to handle tank slappers?

What I was taught (and have used in practice) is to understand and anticipate that as you are correcting the first one, it's going to go wildly in the other direction.  So as soon as the correction starts to take effect, get the steering wheel moving in the other direction.  Don't wait to respond to it.  If you can work the wheel in advance, it helps minimize, or even eliminate, the slap in the other direction.

bs

Re: How to handle tank slappers?

Here's how the handle it over in D-Spec land: https://youtu.be/FxuZ0EoTp10?t=2529

Make sure you throw in the victory yell at the end. :-)

Bert One - 1981 Volvo 262c Bertone | Ernie - 1990 Nissan 240SX

Re: How to handle tank slappers?

Jack Baruth wrote a pretty good article on handling a tank slapper.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/1 … s-article/