1 (edited by mike944 2017-08-15 09:23 AM)

Topic: Lemony oil contamination monitoring?

Anybody ever tried anything to look for metallic contamination in oil?    I know some new cars have sensors for that, but i'm talking something lemony, like 2 metal plates, and measure resistance between them?    Would that work?    Nothing to confuse the driver, We've got a working telemetry system with spare channels, and would read this from the pits.


We had some engine issues this weekend that *may* have been detected via oil contamination.   Just a crazy idea, because i like data!

Maximum Effort Motorsports - Mid-engine 1979 Chevette - Class C Winner - GP Du Lac Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
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Re: Lemony oil contamination monitoring?

We send a sample to this outfit after every race.  $25.  When you do it consistently, anomalies in the data can give you a heads up as to a problem before it happens.

https://www.blackstone-labs.com/

mike944 wrote:

Anybody ever tried anything to look for metallic contamination in oil?    I know some new cars have sensors for that, but i'm talking something lemony, like 2 metal plates, and measure resistance between them?    Would that work?    Nothing to confuse the driver, We've got a working telemetry system with spare channels, and would read this from the pits.


We had some engine issues this weekend that *may* have been detected via oil contamination.   Just a crazy idea, because i like data!

10x loser (Arse-Freeze '11 - Vodden '15) 1x WINNER! Arse-Freeze '14 in the Watermelon Volvo Wagon
Swedish Knievel Skycycle('90 Volvo 740 Wagon)

Re: Lemony oil contamination monitoring?

i use blackstone on my own vehicles.    never bothered on the race car.

I was thinking of something that can be monitored during the race.   Most of our failures have come quickly, and turned catastrophic.

Maximum Effort Motorsports - Mid-engine 1979 Chevette - Class C Winner - GP Du Lac Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
New England Long Winter Build Award - 2015
IOE Winner, Loudon Annoying 2011, Judges Choice - Loudon Annoying 2012
Class C & Least Horrible Yank Tank winner - Boston Tow Party & Overhead Cam Bake 2011

Re: Lemony oil contamination monitoring?

I did some research on this for a work project once.  Hall Effect sensors can be used for this application. 

One manufacturer i know of is Gill sensors.  Here is some information on it, including how it works.
https://www.gillsc.com/applications/mag … s-sensing/

I wonder if you could make a junkyard version using a ABS wheel speed sensor.

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Re: Lemony oil contamination monitoring?

Ahhhh, that would be brilliant! Impending Doom Warning Light!

mike944 wrote:

i use blackstone on my own vehicles.    never bothered on the race car.

I was thinking of something that can be monitored during the race.   Most of our failures have come quickly, and turned catastrophic.

10x loser (Arse-Freeze '11 - Vodden '15) 1x WINNER! Arse-Freeze '14 in the Watermelon Volvo Wagon
Swedish Knievel Skycycle('90 Volvo 740 Wagon)

Re: Lemony oil contamination monitoring?

gump wrote:

Ahhhh, that would be brilliant! Impending Doom Warning Light!

mike944 wrote:

i use blackstone on my own vehicles.    never bothered on the race car.

I was thinking of something that can be monitored during the race.   Most of our failures have come quickly, and turned catastrophic.

And link it via Bluetooth to your Joo Janta 200 Super-Chromatic Peril Sensitive Sunglasses.

https://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/hitchhikers/images/4/40/360413_original.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/220?cb=20150725150238

You do drive with Joo Janta 200 Super-Chromatic Peril Sensitive Sunglasses?

25X Loser - Delinquent Racing - '86 Rust-Tite Merkur - 9 years (when do I get to stop?).

7 (edited by gunn 2017-08-15 11:30 PM)

Re: Lemony oil contamination monitoring?

shamwow wrote:

I did some research on this for a work project once.  Hall Effect sensors can be used for this application. 

One manufacturer i know of is Gill sensors.  Here is some information on it, including how it works.
https://www.gillsc.com/applications/mag … s-sensing/

I wonder if you could make a junkyard version using a ABS wheel speed sensor.

Did you guys see this whitepaper?
http://www.iaeng.org/publication/IMECS2 … 94-897.pdf


Besides industrial sensors, don't some cars have some kind of oil condition monitoring?
Discussion of how BMW tells you your oil is shite (mostly runtime analysis but it sounds like there is an oil condition sensor)  - https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/show … ing-system

Another survey of various industrial sensors
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Rea … sdetectors

Seems like a pre-baked solution from a company based in Palo Alto. I still have no idea how much any of these sensors cost though.
http://www.vsi-oil.com/Advantage/Advantage.htm

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Ceci n'est pas une Citron Thunderbird ("This is not a lemon" but a 1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing + engine mounted frito maker)
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Re: Lemony oil contamination monitoring?

i've never looked into any commercially-available solution.    I assume it doesn't fit within any type of lemony budget.     I think this would be budget excempt, being a "driver information" device, but it still comes out of our wallet.    That's why i was looking to come up with something myself.

i can probably find a cheap eddy current sensor.   I think i'm going to dig into that path.

Maximum Effort Motorsports - Mid-engine 1979 Chevette - Class C Winner - GP Du Lac Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
New England Long Winter Build Award - 2015
IOE Winner, Loudon Annoying 2011, Judges Choice - Loudon Annoying 2012
Class C & Least Horrible Yank Tank winner - Boston Tow Party & Overhead Cam Bake 2011

Re: Lemony oil contamination monitoring?

Lemony on-board rheology solutions would be interesting.

I suspect anything sensitive enough to measure what you are looking for would be too disrupted by the environment of a race car.

However, this has been studied.
https://www.pnl.gov/redipro/pdf/oilanalsole99.pdf

But please let us know before you power up your lemon-gineered X-ray source in the pits so we can shield our important bits.


There may be a more reasonable, albeit less thorough, method for monitoring the oil via magnetic analysis.   The theory being that ferrous particle in the oil could disrupt an adjacent magnetic field.  You could probably pass the oil near an old hard drive magnet, then  If you could monitor the reaction of the field with a Hall effect sensor you might be able to determine when the metallic content rises.   However, you would need to experiment to determine a "we're f@#$ed" threshold for oil contamination.

and it looks like that already exists as an "off the shelf" solution
http://www.skf.com/group/products/condi … index.html

I'm sure its not cheap, and still might not be suited to in situ measurements on a race car.

The Roto-Racer '89 Merkur:  If it ain't rusting, It ain't racing.

'14 Real Hoopties of NJ: Judges Choice

Re: Lemony oil contamination monitoring?

The fact that NONE of the canned solutions will publish a price online (even a list price) makes me think it's well beyond the pirice most Lemons teams would buy on a lark.

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Ceci n'est pas une Citron Thunderbird ("This is not a lemon" but a 1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing + engine mounted frito maker)
2017 Sears Pointless Organizer’s Choice
Frito Making Tbird from 2018 Sears Pointless Engine Heat BBQ - http://goo.gl/csaet4

Re: Lemony oil contamination monitoring?

gunn wrote:

The fact that NONE of the canned solutions will publish a price online (even a list price) makes me think it's well beyond the pirice most Lemons teams would buy on a lark.

EXACTLY!

That's why i'm not even considering it, and looking to cobble something together.

Maximum Effort Motorsports - Mid-engine 1979 Chevette - Class C Winner - GP Du Lac Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
New England Long Winter Build Award - 2015
IOE Winner, Loudon Annoying 2011, Judges Choice - Loudon Annoying 2012
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Re: Lemony oil contamination monitoring?

The problem with any off-the-shelf hall effect chip (for example, the Melexis Triaxis series) is that you need a programmer and firmware in order to even set it up.

Mike @ Charnal House Inc.
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13 (edited by jrbe 2017-08-20 12:49 PM)

Re: Lemony oil contamination monitoring?

I would think a hall sensor would only see ferrous metals. I wonder if anyone uses ohms to read the oil? I thought Mercedes did.. Carbon built up over time should up the resistance of the oil as well as any other metal particles.

Plenty of hall crank / cam sensors that are already meant for being in an oil pan. I'd guess they need very light pull up / down resistors to sense tiny particles.

A combo of hall and ohm data might get you some idea of what's going on.

-Killer B's (as in rally) '84 4000Q 4.2V8. Audis never win?

Re: Lemony oil contamination monitoring?

jrbe wrote:

I would think a hall sensor would only see ferrous metals. I wonder if anyone uses ohms to read the oil? I thought Mercedes did.. Carbon built up over time should up the resistance of the oil as well as any other metal particles.

Plenty of hall crank / cam sensors that are already meant for being in an oil pan. I'd guess they need very light pull up / down resistors to sense tiny particles.

A combo of hall and ohm data might get you some idea of what's going on.

See Fig 4 in this patent filing
http://www.google.com.pg/patents/US20070144251
http://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/US20070144251A1/US20070144251A1-20070628-D00002.png

Apparently the resistance measured in an oil will change over time based on temp and how much fuel contaminates the oil.

While this patent is concerned about fuel (vs metal particle) contamination, this would make measuring how bad the oil is even more complicated. Your arduino/Raspberry Pi/whatever would have to monitor the oil temps as well as the resistence, "learn" your engine's typical resistance as a curve, and then report to the user when that number is out of whack.

Another interesting article seems to state measuring capacitance may be used to determine oil quality. Apparently, the same idea is used for oil fryers to measure how much crud is in the frying oil.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3274308/
https://www.testo.com/en-US/testo-270/p/0563-2750

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Ceci n'est pas une Citron Thunderbird ("This is not a lemon" but a 1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing + engine mounted frito maker)
2017 Sears Pointless Organizer’s Choice
Frito Making Tbird from 2018 Sears Pointless Engine Heat BBQ - http://goo.gl/csaet4

Re: Lemony oil contamination monitoring?

Seems like it wouldn't be an easy thing to do.  Mercedes calls theirs FSS (flexible service system)

Interesting info,
https://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/12/mer … ly-on-old/

https://mbca.org/sites/default/files/ML … 0reset.pdf

-Killer B's (as in rally) '84 4000Q 4.2V8. Audis never win?

Re: Lemony oil contamination monitoring?

I figured an oil and filter change after a day on the track was good e elfin' nuff.

Re: Lemony oil contamination monitoring?

fiasco wrote:

I figured an oil and filter change after a day on the track was good e elfin' nuff.

Agree, I change after each race, nothing fancy just the factory recommended oil weight in whatever the hardware store/walmart has on sale.

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Re: Lemony oil contamination monitoring?

Fortunately, (or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it) we have a sample of oil from 2 freshly blown-up engines to test!

i was going to try measuring capacitance.     If i just put 2 precisely-spaced plates into the oil, and measure capacitance, any metal particles in between them should affect it.

probably way harder than that, but what the hey, might as well try an experiment and learn something, right?

Maximum Effort Motorsports - Mid-engine 1979 Chevette - Class C Winner - GP Du Lac Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
New England Long Winter Build Award - 2015
IOE Winner, Loudon Annoying 2011, Judges Choice - Loudon Annoying 2012
Class C & Least Horrible Yank Tank winner - Boston Tow Party & Overhead Cam Bake 2011

Re: Lemony oil contamination monitoring?

I think the fuel contamination issue would only be seen in very high compression engines running dizzle or methanol (compression forces unburnt fuel past the rings) where the oil temp isn't high enough to evaporate the fuel.  I don't think most of us will run into that issue.  Capacitance measurement is interesting but I think you'll need to have logging plus blow up more than a few engines due to bearing material loss to find out the magic number to shut er down.

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