• Registered: 2009-08-28
  • Posts: 606

Topic: Lemony Diff cooler?

Hey guys I wanted to get some input on maybe putting a diff cooler on our new Lemons Corvette. 

SOME people have told me that it should hold up just fine, but me personally I can't imagine it being happy after hours of running.   The diff in our Camaro got plenty hot and it had the axle tubes to hold extra fluid! 

The diff is a Dana 36, I can't install a bigger diff cover because its part of the rear suspension on our 84 ("batwings")  so I figure I will have to drill some holes in the diff to put some bungs into it for the cooler lines.   Any recommendations on were to put these??

I snagged a bunch of tranny coolers from the local pick and pull.   They came out of old motor homes so they are nice and big AND the tube size is huge, so I would THINK they would work good for diff fluid as well.  Some people have said that just plumbing one into the diff would work, just let convection move the fluid....others have said I would need a pump to keep things moving.

So what do you think folks??  Do it??  Screw it??  other ideas??

Lemme knows!

Team Sucker Punch: Winner Class B Doing Time at Joliet 2023 Autobahn ,Winner Org Choice award Were the Elite Meet to Cheat 2015
Chevy Camaro (Tiger striped #38)  (1989-2017 RIP old friend)
Chevy Corvette 1984......and still racing!
  • From: Tustin, CA
  • Registered: 2010-12-30
  • Posts: 3,275

Re: Lemony Diff cooler?

I would think you'd be fine just ducting air to the diff. But it is an interesting question from a LeMon-tech perspective.  Most fluid pumps available from the JY are a bit high pressure-ish for this task.  You only need to move oil but not at high pressure which adds heat.  I'd also wonder about moving it so fast it doesnt have time to cool. About the only thing I can think of would be a power steering pump run off the driveshaft but even that is a lot of pressure/flow for this.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

3 Reply by Red Lemons Racing (edited by Red Lemons Racing 2017-08-26 10:35 AM)

  • From: Westfield Ma
  • Registered: 2012-10-29
  • Posts: 1,148

Re: Lemony Diff cooler?

something like this? 

http://www.bimmerworld.com/Driveline-Sh … ooler.html

granted I'm thinking you build one for significantly less money.

https://s14net.vbulletin.net/filedata/fetch?id=843420

all available at summit

Tilton Oil Cooler Pump: TIL-40-524
Fluidyne 15 Row Cooler: FLD-DB-30115
(2) 8AN TO 3/8 NPT ADAPTER: SUM-220846
(4) -08 90 SWIVEL HOSE END: SUM-220887
(2) 8AN HOSE END STRAIGHT: SUM-220890
10 ft. of 4AN Braided Hose: SUM-230810

4 Reply by jrbe (edited by jrbe 2017-08-26 11:52 AM)

  • jrbe
  • Effluent
  • Offline
  • From: Central CT
  • Registered: 2009-06-23
  • Posts: 921

Re: Lemony Diff cooler?

Ford uses an air scoop to cool the transmission,
http://www.cjponyparts.com/ford-racing- … p/M5025M8/
I think you'll need a pump to make a fluid cooler work.

I was worried about our diff after converting it from awd to rwd. I thought we might be pushing it directing all of the power thorough just the rear diff. I hit the diff and trans with an ir gun after 5 hours of racing. But the diff and the transmission were right around 170°F. They're both aluminum and had good oil in both.

Can you do a test day and check temps as part of testing?

-Killer B's (as in rally) '84 4000Q 4.2V8. Audis never win?
  • Registered: 2009-08-28
  • Posts: 606

Re: Lemony Diff cooler?

jrbe wrote:

Ford uses an air scoop to cool the transmission,
http://www.cjponyparts.com/ford-racing- … p/M5025M8/
I think you'll need a pump to make a fluid cooler work.

I was worried about our diff after converting it from awd to rwd. I thought we might be pushing it directing all of the power thorough just the rear diff. I hit the diff and trans with an ir gun after 5 hours of racing. But the diff and the transmission were right around 170°F. They're both aluminum and had good oil in both.

Can you do a test day and check temps as part of testing?


Yaknow I kinda liked the idea of just adding an air cooler, the ta tas Camaro (caddy?!?!)  had something like that on it, they they have MUCH more power then I will have.

Crossfire.....

Team Sucker Punch: Winner Class B Doing Time at Joliet 2023 Autobahn ,Winner Org Choice award Were the Elite Meet to Cheat 2015
Chevy Camaro (Tiger striped #38)  (1989-2017 RIP old friend)
Chevy Corvette 1984......and still racing!
  • Registered: 2009-07-19
  • Posts: 1,585

Re: Lemony Diff cooler?

I made something like that for the original Duff car. I used an oil pump off of a dump truck diff cooler. It worked well.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!
  • Greg S
  • Greg S
  • Ripened Lemon
  • Offline
  • From: Huntington NY
  • Registered: 2009-05-29
  • Posts: 283

Re: Lemony Diff cooler?

Careful with the Tilton diff cooler pump. It has a very low tolerance for high temperature oil. I toasted one on the Alfa.

They want you to plumb it so the oil passes through the cooler first. Not exactly best practice for plumbing a pump.

Greg

1987 Alfa Milano (Bellissima since 2008), Racing since 2008 Stafford Springs,  2nd overall 2011 NJMP, 4th at NHMS 2011, 2nd at Summit 2011, Into the wall hard at Stafford Springs 2011, 2nd at Monticello 2013, 3rd at NHMS 2013, 2nd at NHMS 2016. 2nd at NJMP 2018

25,000 racing miles in 32 races in 10 years. Yes its the same motor. Tell me again how Alfas suck? Update: Big moneyshift = new motor
  • Registered: 2009-07-19
  • Posts: 1,585

Re: Lemony Diff cooler?

I plumbed mine after the cooler and filter so it would get cool clean oil. It's a positive displacement pump, so I don't see why it would matter where you put it in the circuit

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!
  • gump
  • gump
  • Ripened Lemon
  • Offline
  • From: el aye, so cal
  • Registered: 2011-06-01
  • Posts: 330

Re: Lemony Diff cooler?

Would be so cool to use this NASCAR driveline powered pump:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Johnson-Rear-End … mp;vxp=mtr

What is acceptable temperature range for diff fluid?  Does anyone monitor?  We are installing a race capture pro mk III and I'm thinking about monitoring the diff and trans fluid temperature...just for fun.

10x loser (Arse-Freeze '11 - Vodden '15) 1x WINNER! Arse-Freeze '14 in the Watermelon Volvo Wagon
Swedish Knievel Skycycle('90 Volvo 740 Wagon)

10 Reply by Red Lemons Racing (edited by Red Lemons Racing 2017-08-27 04:22 PM)

  • From: Westfield Ma
  • Registered: 2012-10-29
  • Posts: 1,148

Re: Lemony Diff cooler?

It's Lemons, run it till it locks....Oh wait the guys that were pitted near us at Thompson with the 280ZX that sheared a half shaft because of ?  Not sure but could have made a difference they were battling driveline issues all day Sunday.

Greg

You get my email about the to Alfa's?  You guys were kicking ass on Saturday, we were not doing bad either till the afternoon when late black flag moved us from 9th down to 49  after some issues.

  • Greg S
  • Greg S
  • Ripened Lemon
  • Offline
  • From: Huntington NY
  • Registered: 2009-05-29
  • Posts: 283

Re: Lemony Diff cooler?

Red Lemons Racing wrote:

It's Lemons, run it till it locks....Oh wait the guys that were pitted near us at Thompson with the 280ZX that sheared a half shaft because of ?  Not sure but could have made a difference they were battling driveline issues all day Sunday.

Greg

You get my email about the to Alfa's?  You guys were kicking ass on Saturday, we were not doing bad either till the afternoon when late black flag moved us from 9th down to 49  after some issues.

Yes got the email, Thanks. I've got a definite maybe on 3 different 3.0 liter parts cars / engines. So if I can get past the deadly craigslist ghosting no reply thing I think I'm good.

Good to hear you guys were doing well, black flags and mistakes happen though. The Alfa was really good all day Saturday except for the usual braking issues. we were losing oil all day and I chose to keep the car on track to try to maintain our lead - gambling it would carry us home. I rolled the dice and lost. A short video of my fast lap. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAMLguS8ztM

Greg

1987 Alfa Milano (Bellissima since 2008), Racing since 2008 Stafford Springs,  2nd overall 2011 NJMP, 4th at NHMS 2011, 2nd at Summit 2011, Into the wall hard at Stafford Springs 2011, 2nd at Monticello 2013, 3rd at NHMS 2013, 2nd at NHMS 2016. 2nd at NJMP 2018

25,000 racing miles in 32 races in 10 years. Yes its the same motor. Tell me again how Alfas suck? Update: Big moneyshift = new motor
  • From: St Louis
  • Registered: 2011-10-20
  • Posts: 2,611

Re: Lemony Diff cooler?

Red Lemons Racing wrote:

something like this? 

http://www.bimmerworld.com/Driveline-Sh … ooler.html

granted I'm thinking you build one for significantly less money.

https://s14net.vbulletin.net/filedata/fetch?id=843420

all available at summit

Tilton Oil Cooler Pump: TIL-40-524
Fluidyne 15 Row Cooler: FLD-DB-30115
(2) 8AN TO 3/8 NPT ADAPTER: SUM-220846
(4) -08 90 SWIVEL HOSE END: SUM-220887
(2) 8AN HOSE END STRAIGHT: SUM-220890
10 ft. of 4AN Braided Hose: SUM-230810

I am in the process of assembling parts for a (manual) transmission cooler,
So far have Banjo fittings (ebay for a Turbo kit) that keep the lines tucked in nice and tight, http://www.jegs.com/i/Moroso/710/41200/10002/-1 cooler and filter all in one and Marco UP2 Oil Transfer Pump.
Just need to find somewhere to locate it and will likely add a one way valve to prevent the il running back into the trans and overfilling.

Apocalyptic Racing - Occupy Pit Lane racing
Racing the "Toylet" Toyota Celica powered by Chevrolet Ecotec.
24x Loser with the Celica. 16x loser in other fine machines
Overall winner Gingerman 2019

Brett85p's Website

  • gunn
  • Lemons Staff Stalker
  • Offline
  • From: SF, CA
  • Registered: 2010-12-18
  • Posts: 1,011

Re: Lemony Diff cooler?

I think the guys who built the twin turbo taxi used something like this. I bought one from them used but after deciding we didn't have a diff issue (never overheated one yet), I sold it off to Mike (Scrubby's owner).
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Electric-Tu … 1065464535


Another tbird guy on the east coast showed me that he once rigged up a pump for his overheating diff cooler with a power steering pump mounted in the trunk. It was driven by a belt that went around the drive shaft. Very rube golbergy but apparently worked. Even if there was a little slippage, there was still some pumping of oil by the repurposed PS pump into the heat exchanger and then back into the diff.

-g

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Ceci n'est pas une Citron Thunderbird ("This is not a lemon" but a 1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing + engine mounted frito maker)
2017 Sears Pointless Organizer’s Choice
Frito Making Tbird from 2018 Sears Pointless Engine Heat BBQ - http://goo.gl/csaet4
  • From: Gilbertsville, PA
  • Registered: 2009-12-22
  • Posts: 3,251

Re: Lemony Diff cooler?

gunn wrote:

I think the guys who built the twin turbo taxi used something like this. I bought one from them used but after deciding we didn't have a diff issue (never overheated one yet), I sold it off to Mike (Scrubby's owner).
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Electric-Tu … 1065464535


Another tbird guy on the east coast showed me that he once rigged up a pump for his overheating diff cooler with a power steering pump mounted in the trunk. It was driven by a belt that went around the drive shaft. Very rube golbergy but apparently worked. Even if there was a little slippage, there was still some pumping of oil by the repurposed PS pump into the heat exchanger and then back into the diff.

-g


That was the gt 499 3/4, IIRC

Silent But Deadly Racing-  Ricky Bobby's Laughing Clown Malt Liquor Thunderbird , Datsun 510, 87 Mustang (The Race Team Formerly Known as Prince), 72 Pinto Squire waggy, Parnelli Jones 67 Galaxie, Turbo Coupe Surf wagon.(The Surfin Bird), Squatting Dogs In Tracksuits,  Space Pants!  Roy Fuckin Kent and The tribute to a tribute to a tribute THUNDERBIRD/ SUNDAHBADOH!
  • From: St Louis
  • Registered: 2011-10-20
  • Posts: 2,611

Re: Lemony Diff cooler?

OK this is likely a horrible idea....but Lemons was built on bad ideas....so with that in mind  has anyone mounted a small fan (think scaled down radiator fan blades) between the driveshaft and diff? You already have a rapidly rotating drive line why not harness that and use it to blow air back onto the diff?

Apocalyptic Racing - Occupy Pit Lane racing
Racing the "Toylet" Toyota Celica powered by Chevrolet Ecotec.
24x Loser with the Celica. 16x loser in other fine machines
Overall winner Gingerman 2019

Brett85p's Website

  • From: Vermont
  • Registered: 2012-04-19
  • Posts: 301

Re: Lemony Diff cooler?

Brett85p wrote:

OK this is likely a horrible idea....but Lemons was built on bad ideas....so with that in mind  has anyone mounted a small fan (think scaled down radiator fan blades) between the driveshaft and diff? You already have a rapidly rotating drive line why not harness that and use it to blow air back onto the diff?

This concept works for hydrostatic transaxles in lawn tractors, but seems unlikely to provide any meaningful increase in airflow over what's already rushing under the car anyway.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0608/2165/products/3000_338f525f-c0a5-4bdb-a550-a7839573ed6e_large.png?v=1501846270

Sorry For Party Racing! - 1985 Pontiac Firebird - Car #35

A race car exists only in two states: broken or in the process of becoming that way.
  • From: Westfield Ma
  • Registered: 2012-10-29
  • Posts: 1,148

Re: Lemony Diff cooler?

Looks like my John Deere set up.

  • Registered: 2009-07-19
  • Posts: 1,585

Re: Lemony Diff cooler?

As I learned from my lemony AC setup, air under the car is already pretty hot.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!
  • gunn
  • Lemons Staff Stalker
  • Offline
  • From: SF, CA
  • Registered: 2010-12-18
  • Posts: 1,011

Re: Lemony Diff cooler?

Brett85p wrote:

OK this is likely a horrible idea....but Lemons was built on bad ideas....so with that in mind  has anyone mounted a small fan (think scaled down radiator fan blades) between the driveshaft and diff? You already have a rapidly rotating drive line why not harness that and use it to blow air back onto the diff?

I have to imagine that the clearance issues this idea would create would NOT be justified by the airflow such a fan would generate (or more than likely block).


What about welding your own heatsinks/fins onto the diff cover
Turn something that looks like this:
http://www.cjponyparts.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/r/d/rdc2_1.jpg

into a shitty version of this
https://turn5.scene7.com/is/image/Turn5/50501?$prodpg640x480$

One more thing that hasn't been discussed: is this an IRS or a live axle? I really don't know
With Ford Mustangs, I remember reading about some people DIYing a setup where they tapped the feeds from the diff cover and fed back into the axle ends
While this sounds like a potentially fine way to oil the track down, apparently it does work.

Here's an example of a kit sold
http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/d … ooler-kit/
http://tu9srvbirvvtmjikaw1hz2uubxvzdgfuz2fuzgzvcmrzlmnvbq00.g00.mustangandfords.com/g00/2_d3d3Lm11c3RhbmdhbmRmb3Jkcy5jb20%3D_/TU9SRVBIRVVTMjIkaHR0cDovL2ltYWdlLm11c3RhbmdhbmRmb3Jkcy5jb20vZi8zMzI1NDI1Mit3NjUwK2g2NTArY3IxK3N0MC9tNWxwLTA0MDctMDEtbyUyYnBhdWxzLWhpZ2gtcGVyZm9ybWFuY2UtZGlmZi1jb29sZXIta2l0JTJicmVhci1heGxlLWtpdC5qcGc%2FaTEwYy5tYXJrLmltYWdlLnR5cGU%3D_$/$/$/$

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Ceci n'est pas une Citron Thunderbird ("This is not a lemon" but a 1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing + engine mounted frito maker)
2017 Sears Pointless Organizer’s Choice
Frito Making Tbird from 2018 Sears Pointless Engine Heat BBQ - http://goo.gl/csaet4
  • Registered: 2009-08-28
  • Posts: 606

Re: Lemony Diff cooler?

Its a Corvette...so it has IRS...furthermore the diff cover is part of the rear suspension.

Check it out.

http://www.drivetrainshop.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/axle_dana_36.jpg


The whole thing is aluminium So...I guess I COULD drill and tap some bungs into it...or MAYBE glue some heat sinks into..er...someplace.

Team Sucker Punch: Winner Class B Doing Time at Joliet 2023 Autobahn ,Winner Org Choice award Were the Elite Meet to Cheat 2015
Chevy Camaro (Tiger striped #38)  (1989-2017 RIP old friend)
Chevy Corvette 1984......and still racing!
  • From: Tustin, CA
  • Registered: 2010-12-30
  • Posts: 3,275

Re: Lemony Diff cooler?

We overheated our diff once (smoking oil drops leaking out that looked like smoking wax droplets).   Home Depot racing provided ABS ducting.  Never a problem since.  There's one on each side.  You can see the bell reducer/intake above the "TA" in Mazdarita.

http://www.murileemartin.com/UG/LBW11/LBW11-UG-0133.jpg

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)
  • From: Port Huron, MI
  • Registered: 2012-02-11
  • Posts: 53

Re: Lemony Diff cooler?

Put in a diff temp gauge and see if you need it first.

Another way of tackling this problem is to cool it on command with a water spray.  Salvage a windshield washer tank and pump, fill it full of water and shoot water at the cover.  Admittedly this will produce some smoke but is highly effective at cooling.

#124 Product Design Saturn SL2
  • From: SF Bay Area
  • Registered: 2012-01-06
  • Posts: 721

Re: Lemony Diff cooler?

moresaturn wrote:

Another way of tackling this problem is to cool it on command with a water spray.  Salvage a windshield washer tank and pump, fill it full of water and shoot water at the cover.  Admittedly this will produce some smoke but is highly effective at cooling.

Greaaat...spray water on the track in front of every car behind you. I see no problems there.

Capt. Delinquent Racing
RUST-TITE XR4Ti - '21 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA  I Got Screwed
The One & Only Taurus V8 SHO #31(now moved on to another OG Delinquent)
'17 Vodden the Hell - (No) Hope for the Future Award, '08 AMP Survivor, '08 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA Mega-Cheater
  • From: SF Bay Area
  • Registered: 2012-01-06
  • Posts: 721

Re: Lemony Diff cooler?

Tiptoe the rat wrote:

Its a Corvette...so it has IRS...furthermore the diff cover is part of the rear suspension.

Check it out.

http://www.drivetrainshop.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/axle_dana_36.jpg


The whole thing is aluminium So...I guess I COULD drill and tap some bungs into it...or MAYBE glue some heat sinks into..er...someplace.

If you're serious, I'd TIG some fins to the cover.  Optionally,  get some heat sinks from a  computer, add some heat transfer paste, drill and tap some small, shallow, holes in the cover to mount them.

Capt. Delinquent Racing
RUST-TITE XR4Ti - '21 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA  I Got Screwed
The One & Only Taurus V8 SHO #31(now moved on to another OG Delinquent)
'17 Vodden the Hell - (No) Hope for the Future Award, '08 AMP Survivor, '08 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA Mega-Cheater
  • From: Sacramento, California
  • Registered: 2012-08-02
  • Posts: 354

Re: Lemony Diff cooler?

The aluminum batwings look to provide one very big cooler already.   Has anyone had diff overheat issues on c4 corvettes??