Intro & a few n00b (car choice) questions (Page 1 of 2)

If people can take a 16 year old who has only had her license for 3 months and throw her into a racecar, or put someone behind the wheel of a right hand drive manual transmission car and push him out on a hot racetrack for his first attempt ever at driving a stick, I think a year of "prepping" others is too much time and you risk losing them to "life". Strike while the iron is hot. If you have to start the fire by rubbing 2 stick together and then convince them to go buy marshmallows, fin the perfect marshmallow stick, school them on the proper temperature of the center of the marshmallow and the perfect color of the outside of the marshmallow, they may get told by their doctors about 6 months into it that they are diabetic and all Marshmallows are out. Or North Korea shoots a missile over their house and they won't come out of the front door any more.

As you can read 500 times elsewhere, you'll lose likely 1/4 of the drivers you thought you had when it comes time to plunk down money and then likely another 1/4 when it comes time to show up to the event. Lemons knows this and requires the $ 10 weeks out and no refunds. There have been several teams that have shown up with 1 driver and an unfinished car at the track. Lemons is about what happens at the track once that one person demonstrates the bravery to show up with the unfinished car and zero drivers. as Nick says, "Deal whit it." and we do and you will, too.

As a first time, noob team I encourage you to not consider waivers as a viable option worth approaching. A Waiver is basically asking the organizer to take personal responsibility and place his kids, wife,house, and 401K on the line for you who is a total stranger who has not proven you have the ability to make it to the track yet. Proceed with a plan that does not involve waivers. Or, if that's the only thing that interests you (the waiver idea), come up with a complete plan on how you intend to insure the safety of the occupants and others at the venue while executing it. There is no waiving safety.

Yes

Lemons is gray. The shade of grey / gray is determined by the people running the series. if you are one to argue over the shade of the grey, then you will have less fun than you could otherwise have.

Not if they don't make you go any faster.

Answered elsewhere in the forum. Easiest answer is it only matters if you care about finishing high up on the results at the end of the weekend. Bring whatever you want, spend whatever you want, and come have fun.

Welcome to the forum.

Thanks for the replies spank and bikejeff.

Went back & re-read --well didn't read. Went back and said "holy crap I typed a lot, nobody's ever gonna read all that"

I think my questions (or maybe concerns) come from having only done (fairly) competitive racing. As a novice/beginner racer they'd run you maybe one class down or if in standard class you'd have a novice flag/sticker on your car, instructed not to interfere with lap traffic (traffic lapping you), etc. My concern with seat time and new drivers is safety. I understand "strike while the iron is hot" but I also understand what it's like to have a novice racer put you off the track because they don't know lines, corners, track etiquette, etc. I'm also used to a fairly high level of scrutiny --be prepared for engine teardowns, crazy tech, etc.

I just didn't want to be that guy or that team who shows up with a bunch of people who can't drive (boobs or not). But if that's OK or somewhat to be expected across all teams then I probably am overthinking it.

bikejeff:
Thanks for the reply. Two things. First, I don't care about placement at all. I don't want to go racing if it's all about writing checks to buy speed (and trophies). I want to do it for a good time because the crew I'm trying to put together won't like it any other way. Second, why no BMWs? I know, I've read all over there are tons of them, they are played out, etc. But also they are easiest, quickest & cheapest for me to cage and put together a sorted car. (just curious, I've been looking at some other cars too)

Spank:
Thanks for the reply. So the weight waiver vehicle I was asking about is a 1964 International Travelall ambulance. Sorry, says I have to write at least 2 posts to submit links. If you Google "1964 International Travelall ambulance" pics will come up quick. Thought it would be a cool theme to show up in a legit ambulance. Especially since the three girls are legit nurses. It's the long wheelbase travelall. I think it comes in well over 5,000# GVW, probably closer to 5200-5500#. The thing is old. Ran when parked in a field 20 years ago. I have a '76 Scout so I know my way around them a bit & have a decent pile of spares. Enough that I could probably get it running. It's a 3-spd automatic and I doubt it'll go over 65mph. My concern wasn't really rollovers or our driver --more that it's heavy as F and maybe the other teams might want to double check their cages just in case. Owner told me if I can get it out of his field I can have the ambulance and the International pickup sitting next to it. Just thought it might be cool so figured I'd ask.

If it's only a money/liability thing I'd be happy to talk to the organizers about an insurance rider (at my/our cost). That said, my bigger concern would be putting something like that on a track with all the other cars. Since brakes are in the unlimited budget category we could easily get the brakes sorted so it would stop --WELL. It's just that if it ever collided with anything else it would win.

Got it. Point taken. As I said above, my concern was purely safety and for the other drivers more than our team. When you know your car and you know how to drive, you know your lines, the car's limits, etc. I don't know a think about Lemons. Maybe everyone, no matter how experienced you are, just assumes the other driver has no clue and could kill them so watch out. If one of our drivers makes a mistake or does something dumb/unpredictable, someone else could get hurt.

But if it's totally cool to just wing it and show up... Then we've got a couple really killer theme ideas, we're decent people, we'll have more girls than guys --and a couple of their husbands are legit chefs and can cook a mean BBQ. Just watch the F out for us on the track LOL.

Nah. I seriously thought we'd be at war by now... But it'll be with China not him. Rumor has it we may have technology that can intercept and change a missiles guidance systems mid-flight. So essentially we can hijack it mid-flight, turn it around and have it land on whoever fired it. But that's strictly rumor. idk why Trump doesn't put his foot down and say that if he fires anything else we will consider it an act of war. Just call a spade a spade and be done with it. I digress and we need to be talking about burning the extra fuel we just sanctioned from N. Korea.

I have read that everywhere. I'm a numbers guy. Facts and statistics don't lie however I planned on footing most of that bill. We are all older, own homes, etc. I was going to dust off the old autox car and see if I can get a track day or two before the snow falls. If they pony up and buy their own gear, the least I can do is pay their entry fees. After that it would be the time away from home/spouses and putting in enough time to just learn & drive the car a bit. If they buy the gear I think I have a team. If not I'll be posting to pay & drive shortly lol.

None of us are like that at all. I didn't like how spec e30 felt like it was more about writing checks than racing. They don't know any different. If I can throw together a team and we do it & enjoy it for the fun and shenanigans (and seat time is fun) then I feel like it'll be a win. I don't care about any of that crap. I just don't want to be the douche new guy.

What about training wheels? I mean literally training wheels so the car doesn't flip over? (assuming it's done & engineered properly & safely) Is that a gre/ay area that might be scrutinized? So if we build a giant (whatever) around a car, does it all have to stay off the ground or can we use training wheels to keep the heap we build upright?

Thanks! here goes nothing...

Hey, both those girls were 18!!! *chuckle*

I have your answer...put the IH ambulance sheet metal on the e30. I can almost guarantee instant HERO status.
BTW I'm not joking.

Re: Noob drivers...they show up all the time. What I told my girls was this, "Don't do anything unpredictable." I stressed maintaining predictable lines through corners, and watch your mirrors. My Lemons mantra for noobs is, "Drive your lane, not the 'line'."

If the nurses show up in the skimpiest "naughty nurse" costumes you can find, and flirt with Judge Phil (drag him into the back of the ambulance?), you will be loved!   Take that idea and run with it.

A couple of years ago HQ rejected my request for a weight waiver on a fourth-generation Travelall, despite my experience. Or, come to think of it, perhaps precisely because of their knowledge of my experience. Hmmm...

Admittedly a third-generation example is inherently more interesting and the fact that it's an ambulance may help, so it's probably worth asking but don't get your hopes up too much. If they do approve, personally I'd rather see it on the track stock than see its body grafted onto a BMW, although mine may be a minority opinion here.

Yeah that was my thought too. I was thinking that the thing probably won't go over 65. Maybe it'll hit 80... no. it's a 304 with 3spd auto. It'll go 65-70mph max. So my thought was it's slow, solid, HUGE, etc. and if we lower it... But then again, the thing is so big that if anything were to happen the other car/driver would lose and we are an extremely inexperienced team. But yes I 100% agree. I would also much rather see that on the track than see it grafted onto an e30.

Maybe I'll go drag it out of the field and see if its a viable vehicle. If it's a halfway decent/solid frame I might reach out to them and ask about a waiver. If I do ask, would references help? I've built a few Spec E30 & BMWCCA cars and never had issues with tech or other drivers on the track.

Honestly the more I think about this. Hmm... I'd be really interested to hear others opinions about this. I'd bet a waiver for a well sorted IH would be safer than grafting an IH onto something. I'm going to take a closer look at this. I bet I can guestimate roughly the extra weight from the IH and the metal required to graft it. Then add in a shorter and narrower wheel base --and the massive brakes & tires that would be required to stop that heap vs. just putting bigger brakes on the IH. I'd bet that #1 I'd get the IH running, wouldn't do shit to it after that and it would probably blow up pretty quick... and #2 even if it made it past 2-3 laps I bet it would have a lower roll center and be limited to much slower speeds therefore be safer. I'm actually very interested to hear other people's thoughts on this.

edit: and #3 I'd bet that the grafted bmw version would end up weighing more than the stock curb weight of the IH... though it may be strictly an insurance thing. (in which case I've said I'd talk to the organizers about a rider for it)

Would it be worth asking this in a new thread?

Thanks!

Here's the thing re the IH. Just ask Pagel. Show what you have built in the past and see. Worst that happens is he says no. Then you move on to plan B.

Understand, whether you make or buy Derlin or aluminum bushings, You'll pay for them with laps. One jump on a corner and the Judges will start planning penalty laps.

But here's the good part!

YOU WON'T WIN! Nobody does their first time. Unless you've done real endurance races before you don't have the team organization down yet to win. So don't worry about it. Come out race cars, have fun, worry about winning or if you even want to go through the backbreaking hassle of winning later.

Because here's the secret, The car doesn't win you the race, your paddock crew and organization does. Shoot for reliability and if your feeling flush put a 24 Gal fuel cell in that puppy and train everyone to not pee for three+ hour stints. That's how you win. Don't compromise comfort for speed you don't need.

Also go over the rules some more. They are dead simple for most things.

Doesn't say anything about as raced weight. But the lighter you make your insanity the less you'll kill the car.

Edit: because I don't think I saw these get answered:

The ONLY thing that counts for the $500 is ON THE CAR parts that are not part of safety exclusion. Shop consumables, fluids, duct tape, paint, grease, Go NUTZ!!! Fancy tubular A-arms, built motors, properly designed Turbo/Supercharger kits that's what gets in the $500 pain zone.

Also No training wheels are not OK. any sticky outy stuff has to be securely fastened to the car, or by judges decree removed on track. Something sturdy enough to actually keep a car from flipping will be a danger on the track. The best way not to flip on the track is not to over drive the car.

Or not have a miata stopped behind you get rear ended making it into a launch ramp....Free CoCo, assuming she ever bothers to race again...

Thanks for your comment. Makes a ton of sense and makes me feel a lot better. I'm a finance guy. I do a lot of higher math at work. Without getting into it I know my way around a spreadsheet same as I know my way around the NYSE. I thought I had made it clear that I hated the whole "winning=writing checks" part of spec e30 racing. I formed our team with a couple of my wife's girlfriends... That's the boob factor: wife's friends from high school & college. I don't want this to sound bad but money isn't a problem for us. I'm worried about the time and their inexperience.

It's an interesting process a n00b goes through. At first I'm like WTF no one can build a (safe) $500 car. Next "OK cool theme and I got this". Then "Oh shit... I can't game the system to win... they can buy my (not)POS for $500 at any time". Then... "fuck it. I don't care if they crush a $10k car or I start with -900 laps, let's do this and have fun". Now I'm trying to figure out how to make this happen. Again, not to even be competitive, just to not break and so we can get seat time and have fun. Actually, do judges ever give $500++ residual values so if we sort a team on a decent car we'll have to scramble (or build new)?

All of us will have individual full gear. All of us will also pay. I am very capable (and confident) of being able to meet tech and would run the car by people in bmwcca that I trust as sanity checks. Car doesn't get loaded on the trailer unless it'll pass. Cheaper to burn the entry fee than to burn the travel & event fees. Been there & done that. Car doesn't get loaded on the trailer unless it's done. Period.

In our minds, we just want to HAVE FUN (and go racing). And we want to scour the USA and find the biggest POS heap in the country and show up with it. Next we want reliability & seat time (before theme)... Then we want a theme & fun... Then we want our spouses not to hate us... Then 50 other things and somewhere down the list is not coming in last.

I think the other thing is I either already own much of the gear or the prices don't phase me. Radio/communication stuff I have and I assumed a big fuel tank.

That's why I initially assumed we would need a year getting ready before we were racing as a team. Now everyone seems to be saying just throw it up on a wall and see if it sticks...

I'm going to try and outline this clearly and kindly.

You are missing the points on a lot of this stuff. Lemons, at it's heart, is a way for the average Joe to go racing as cheaply as possible, while understanding that cheap is relative. The point is to keep the playing field somewhat level and not let it become a battle of the bank accounts. The next important part is it needs to be fun. The organizers don't want a bunch of spec racer jerks who are going to argue the rules all the time (and they are good at making those types feel unwelcome back). What they want is a bunch of people that are fun to be around, creative, respectful, and interested in keeping the series in line with their intended goals.

So, with that stated, let's walk through some of what you've brought up.

Car choice. what the organizers want is a bunch of odd weird old cars that should never be on a race track. But they want them to be safe. So there are weight and wheelbase restrictions. However they understand we want to go fast, so if you bring a common cheaty BMW or miata, they want a damn good theme to prove you are in fact fun to be around. (and they do not want you arguing at BS inspection with their rulings). There are four common categories that most (but not all) people fall into.
1. You pick a car you know. Maybe it's that you used to race spec e30. or you've just had saabs all your life. Or you owned an old focus and just know it in and out. Whatever the case you know the car and you know how to fix it's week spots. So you pick that car and then figure out how to do it in budget and with a theme.
2. You pick a car at random and brute force your way though learning it. I did this. I picked a doge daytona because of reasons and spent a couple years learning how to make it slightly less terrible. Doing this forces you into category 1 after a while because you come to learn the car so well.
3. You go for the purposely weird. This is what wins you IOE (the real winner of Lemons). You pick something that should never have been on a track, ever, and make it do halfway well. This is where Heros are born.
4. you pick something that you think lets you sneak in and DOMINATE. Usually these are the teams that buy something modern and sporty thinking they're going to run away with the race. Like a modern BMW, or modern V8 merc, or a GTO. you know what happens to these teams? They do poorly.
Decide where you want to be. Do you want to show up and have a good time turning laps and partying? Go with 1. Do you want to learn, do fun things, maybe turn no laps, and maybe be a hero with your repairs? go with 2 or 3.

Themes. I get that you've latched onto boobs. It's been made clear. But truly great themes take effort and creativity. Showing up and pressing boobs into the judges faces will not make them ignore the fact that you brought a spec E46. How do you get things like e36 M3s into Lemons? You turn them into a garbage truck and spend the weekend helping collect trash.
http://www.roadkill.com/arizona-d-bags- … s-winners/
Good themes take creativity more than anything. Take a look at 3 Pedal Mafia for an example of a team that can pull off excellent well thought out themes over and over again.

Now let's talk BS inspection. There are two sides to BS inspection. First, it make sure people aren't cheating too badly. Second, to setup a good level playing field for that particular race. We'll tackle point 1 first. Recall what I said the main point of Lemons is. To be an affordable racing series. That gets ruined if the norm becomes everyone buying $2500 BMWs and cooking the books to make them look like $500 cars. BS inspection serves to discourage that and keep everyone looking at older more affordable cars. At the same time it fights performance creep. Teams that have been around a long time slowly make their cars faster and faster, inching that performance gap up and up. BS serves to take some of that out. Top teams may get a couple penalty laps to keep those teams in check with the rest of the field. This keeps the overall winner from blasting everyone away with a 20 lap lead every time.

Now the second part. Every race has a different field of cars and teams. The job of the judges is to setup 3 classes with some good competition. This is not easy. But they want all classes to have their own battles so that winning those classes feels like an accomplishment. If the winner of B is coming in 2nd overall, they didn't do a good job. New teams are harder to judge, because there is no past data. So if you show up with an e30, you're going in A until you prove you're not good at all. Once you get some races done you can argue to move up or down into a competitive place for your team.  If you're a jerk, or you argue with their decision, you're getting a harsher placement. If you work with them to prove that you're really hopeless and didn't cheat, you're getting a better placement. BS inspection is less to punish you and more to make the overall race fair and fun. Bribes and themes just add to the entertainment factor of that goal. Understand that and you'll go far.

So, where should you start as a new team. First, go to a damn race. Walk around, observe, talk to people, watch tech inspection and BS inspection. This will teach you far more than arguing here. Then, decide which category you want to fall into when it comes to cars. Pick your car and build it. Realize that your team may not follow you once you start asking for money. Figure out how to deal with it. Read the rules, several times, and build a car that meets them. Get a car to a race with a team and accept that you still have a learning curve to go through. Ask questions and listen to the answers. Everyone has been through different experiences and has something to offer that can and will help you. Try to have some fun instead of overthinking everything.

Good, concise, clarification. I do think that the OP is simply trying to digest the Lemons Bushido.
Also, I read a lot of stream-of-consciousness writing in 1215's posts.
BTW, I believe the OP has attended a 24HoL event. Of course, there's a lot of text to read through, and I may be confused.

Best 24HoL advice, ever! YMMV.

Dude, stop wasting electrons and give us the benefit of the doubt that we'll know what you are referring to.
The Engineer's post was quite lengthy. Quoting the whole thing will likely cause Amazon to build another server farm.
(Apologies if I offend. The HS teacher in me occasionally takes over my keyboard.)

No, you never get a residual over the car Cost. Just either start over with a faster/crazier car and sell the old one, Ignore the residual and take your penalty laps, or work with what you get. Again YOU are the limiting factor 9 times out of 10, not the car.

I would advise against having someone not intimately familiar with Lemons pre-tech your car. Lemons is stricter than a lot of other racing organizations. Plenty of people show up with SCCA or Brand Club OK cars that don't pass Lemons Tech without a full Friday of fixing stuff.

I'm guessing you're in the NYC "Tri-State" area which puts you close to a lot of very skilled Lemons Teams.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mi … 63&z=5

Invite some of their folks to eyeball your car. Or even help you with the cage build. Cages get people a lot, and it's a pain to fix in the Paddock on Friday evening when drinking should be happening.