Topic: Getting Started The Right Way

Hello! (That's the best I got)

My name's Justin and I have really just started looking into this whole mess of fun. I have worked in my father's repair shop for about a year and finished half of an ASE prep course so I know I have a FIRM grasp on how to repair every kind of car. (What? Is that not believable?)

I have watched lots of videos, read lots of rules (Not all of them, nobody reads all the rules.) and I am hooked on the idea.

The first problem is that I live on Cape Cod in Massachusetts and the closest race will be in NH next year. Too bad, so sad, missed the boat this year by a few days.

I want to find a team but I fear it will be too difficult to meet people close enough to reliably work with. I have the drive to buy a piece of crap car and make it worse, if only to drive it into the ground - but it seems pretty daunting to get involved.

On top of that, I have never been on a track before, let alone driven on one. The prospect of trying not to crash into people has been the biggest barrier to try something of the sort, so I don't know how able I would be to actually race.

Maybe I'm just whining at this point, but now that I've found a '99 Golf TDI near me for the right price, I want to get started.

How did you do it? How far do you travel? Is your team close to you? How do you overcome distance and living in a semi-remote location?

Thanks guys, and have a good day. big_smile

Re: Getting Started The Right Way

You might look up Three Pedal Mafia on FB

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: Getting Started The Right Way

Captain_Kestrel wrote:

I want to find a team but I fear it will be too difficult to meet people close enough to reliably work with. I have the drive to buy a piece of crap car and make it worse, if only to drive it into the ground - but it seems pretty daunting to get involved.

If you never start, you'll never get there. Just jump in. Either as an A&D to some event or by buying your car and just start caging it and otherwise prepping it. There's differing opinion on what "prepping it" means. Some say you need to sort all the bugs and spend lots of money on reliability. For me, the thrill of "Will It or Won't It Make It" is a a large driving force. Not everyone likes that, but for me the satisfaction of completing the event in a $500 or less crapcan is that much greater. But I also feel that much more self-shame if it doesn't make it and the people who came to drive with me get less seat time. So I'm constantly fighting that internal battle. I'd like to think it's not just about seat time, but others see it differently. It can be a costly test-day to come and break on lap 1 or earlier. But this is the riskiest vice and entertainment I participate in, so I choose to afford to throw $ at it instead of booze, opioids, hookers, etc. People spend a lot more $ to go to a professional sporting event and tailgate ahead of time and manage to have a good time no mater how their team performs. But if you don't start, you'll never finish.

On top of that, I have never been on a track before, let alone driven on one. The prospect of trying not to crash into people has been the biggest barrier to try something of the sort, so I don't know how able I would be to actually race.

Look at the calendars of the track that's closest to you. There will be groups that have reserved dates for what's called HPDE or High Performance Driver Education-- take the name of that group, google it, then see what's required to participate. Usually it's a helmet, long sleeved shirt, and a car that has had a pre-event checklist signed off. Nobody really verifies if the check has been performed-- they just want the checklist signed off. Throw some $ at one of those events in your dad's, mom's, girlfriends, or whatever car you can come up with. Hell, go buy a car on the way to the track and then thrash it (get the checklist signed off beforehand of course) and get the thrill/agony of a Lemons weekend without the need for a team to split costs with. It'll help calm your nerves a bit prior to your first Lemons event. But I've thrown many a newbie into a car and onto a hot track for their first ever experience on a racecourse while 150 other cars come screaming past them. Some say that's irresponsible. I say, If you don't go out there, you'll never be able to say you tried it. Besides there's FREE AAA. Whenever a person goes out on track, even if it's 5" onto the racing surface, and they don't feel safe enough to continue, they can pull over off the racing surface and just STOP and wait for the Safety Crew to rescue them. A Yellow Flag will come out to help protect them while they sit there OFF THE RACING SURFACE and then they'll get towed or pushed in.

Maybe I'm just whining at this point, but now that I've found a '99 Golf TDI near me for the right price, I want to get started.

The only person stopping you is you. Sounds like a great car choice. Go buy it.

How did you do it? How far do you travel? Is your team close to you? How do you overcome distance and living in a semi-remote location?

How? I bought my own used tubing bender and welder off of craigslist, bent, notched and tacked my first cage together following FIA Article 253 guidelines (pre-dated the Lemons https://24hoursoflemons.com/wp-content/ … 051817.pdf  I then had a friend who is a certified welder come weld it together in exchange for a seat in the event. (Same friend also supervised my own welding of subsequent cages before I gained confidence just to do it myself). My closest race is a 5 hour tow. The longest I've towed was probably San Diego to The Ridge in WA state, or MSR Houston which is near Galveston. But the farthest I've traveled is I once drove a caged $500 car from San Diego to Miami just to do a race. My team is a revolving door of Arrive and Drives, some of whom come back for a second or third go-round, but I have a core group of Essential Friends whom I never would have met if it weren't for this series and who are invaluable support both in person and via text/email--  They are all the true Spank.  And if "Spank" can do it, anyone can. Hell, if "Spank" CAN'T do it, you're chances of success are probably even greater!.

Re: Getting Started The Right Way

Captain_Kestrel wrote:

I have the drive to buy a piece of crap car and make it worse,

That's the most important part, and really all you need. Get a car and get it ready. The team will follow or join you along the way. In eight years of prepping Lemons cars, I've never prepped a car and not been able to find anyone to hoon it with me.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: Getting Started The Right Way

Thank you guys a bunch for the responses! I'm working with some money problems right now, but I am going to do what I can to prep a car myself. Maybe not that Golf, but I did also find a TDI Jetta...

Thoughts on diesels for the races? I am sure forced induction is a blessing for racing but a curse for endurance, but to my knowledge a diesel will give you a lot of durability with a lot of torque. Turbo spools early and you get pretty good low end... So why in all the videos I watch do I hardly see diesels? Is it because they aren't easy to work on?

Re: Getting Started The Right Way

I race a diesel. It works great.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: Getting Started The Right Way

Captain_Kestrel wrote:

...TDI Jetta...
So why in all the videos I watch do I hardly see diesels?...

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/6hd9J3gSmmM/hqdefault.jpg
We find it VERY confusing...Is that oil smoke from your leaky engine? Did your transmission just blow-up? Is that your "James Bond Smoke Screen" feature from your theme? It's all just too much to contemplate for us.

Capt. Delinquent Racing
RUST-TITE XR4Ti - '21 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA  I Got Screwed
The One & Only Taurus V8 SHO #31(now moved on to another OG Delinquent)
'17 Vodden the Hell - (No) Hope for the Future Award, '08 AMP Survivor, '08 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA Mega-Cheater

Re: Getting Started The Right Way

Captain_Kestrel wrote:

Hello! (That's the best I got)



The first problem is that I live on Cape Cod in Massachusetts and the closest race will be in NH next year. Too bad, so sad, missed the boat this year by a few days.

big_smile

You'll have Thompson in August as well. There's also the Jersey race, but that's an actual tow from anything north of NYC.

The rules are short enough to read. Really, the "How Not to Fail Tech" pdf is one of the best things I've seen to explain car prep to the ADD/ADHD crowd. Print it out and tape it to whatever hooptie you buy. There is almost certainly a fire system rule coming if it hasn't already...

I hear you on the money thing. Kids make it worse. I took the year off, but am itching to get back on the track.

Pick a car you know halfway well to make failure less perplexing.

Good luck!

9 (edited by Guildenstern 2017-10-27 04:00 PM)

Re: Getting Started The Right Way

Captain_Kestrel wrote:

(Not all of them, nobody reads all the rules.)

Try harder. It's like 10 printed pages in total. We really do take the rules seriously. That why it's kept short.

Captain_Kestrel wrote:

How did you do it? How far do you travel? Is your team close to you? How do you overcome distance and living in a semi-remote location?

From the Cleveland, Ohio area, I Spectated the Lamest Day at Nelson back in '09. Then got my driver gear together, wasted a year trying to make a pile of rust pretend to be a car, and snagged an arrive and drive in 2012 at Summit Point, WV. From there I goobered around, spectated some races, and got my onsite gear together and discarded "car" #1.

A&D again in '14 at Sebring and NJMP. in '15 bought the car that did finally become the racecar, crewed a CMP race (because car ate all my money).

Finally got two other team members, Spectated Gingerman spring 16 to get a team member to hold the puppy, then busted through the summer credit cards akimbo to go from gutted running car to race car.

Car and Teams first race was Decade of Disappointment Gingerman 2016. Did gingerman spring and NCM and now rebuilding our blowed up engine for next Gingerman.

Aside from the Nelson one time race, the NEAREST event to me has been Gingerman at 6 Hours with rest stops. The furthest was Sebring at, well, lots.

My team is spread out about 45 min in opposite directions. The main work garage is that far away and eats about a quarter tank of gas round trip. the weeks before a race get pricey in gas and gas station junk food.

I overcame the distance by having a job where I got to drive cars around for an auto wholesaler 8 hours a day for two years. You just have to muscle through the slog for a bit then it becomes easy to just drive all day. Podcasts help.

A very small and lucky few Lemons teams get to be real close to an event track. Most of us average 4-9 hours one way.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: Getting Started The Right Way

Also, the car. I originally started with a Civic because I had several sitting around and I knew how to work on them. It was not a bad car, but not a good car either. I turned it into a good car, but it took years and $. Later, when we were looking for car #3, we asked around for opinions on the most reliable and indestructible Lemons car, and ended up with a W123 diesel. It is a GREAT Lemons car. Almost no prep, and multiple races where we just don't have to do anything to it other than drive it and fuel it. It's easy on tires and brakes and is a really big fat bucket of awesome.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: Getting Started The Right Way

rmcdaniels wrote:

t's easy on tires and brakes and is a really big fat bucket of awesome.

This should be their next ad campaign.

Mercedes: A Really Big Fat Bucket of Awesome

Re: Getting Started The Right Way

Spank wrote:
rmcdaniels wrote:

t's easy on tires and brakes and is a really big fat bucket of awesome.

This should be their next ad campaign.

Mercedes: A Really Big Fat Bucket of Awesome

Ain't that the truth!

Tradewinds Tribesmen Racing (The road goes on forever…)
#289 1984 Corvette Z51 #124 1984 944 #110 2002 Passat
Gone but not forgotten, #427-Hong Kong Cavaliers Benz S500
IOE (Humber!) Hell on Wheels (Jaguar)

Re: Getting Started The Right Way

you are actually in a Lemons Hotbed regions!  There is me in Plymouth, MA, with an unrecognizable beat up old Honda and a motley group of rif-rafs pretending to be mechanics and race car drivers...as well as a jeweler guy in town that bought the General Ree RX7 Dukes of Hazzard car....another well organized team just up rt. 3 with a sharp looking 280Z and very talented  well organized drivers...another one just near by in Pembroke with a hot looking (Diesel) VW Beetle that buzzez aound the track...there is another team in Duxbury, MA with the amazing Scooby Doo car, another team in Boston with a lightening fast MR2 that runs out of gas every hour and looks like a Space Shuttle that just re entered Earth's orbit with most of its "tiles" broken off, etc. with even more teams in Maine, VT, Conn., etc.
And we have 2 tracks within 3 hour drive and NJ about 6 hours away....you should see how far those poor bastards need to drive in the midwest to get to the nearest track...!  You are actually in prime real estate...
Anyways, over the winter, I am planning to do a little rebuilding, swapping, modification of my car that will include work that is way outside my scope of mechanical abilities, working with a Haynes and Chilton manual with photos that look nothing like my car...buy hey, what could go wrong....I'd be happy to meet up with you over a beer and chowder at Capt. Parkers, or if I have a specific wrenching day, you could join me too.
Anyways, there is some good advice here and elsewhere in the forum for starting in Lemons.
My opinion, advice, briefly:
- You mentioned you are  " ! I'm working with some money problems right now"---well, you might need to taper your hopes and dreams...unless you got $$ to burn, start low and slow....spend $30 and just go to a race/join a team as a gopher/helper....or do an A&D, which will likely put you out for about $1000 for a weekend....
Starting with a new build all by yourself?...that is a lot of time, money, work....you might just burn yourself out...
Make a budget and price everything out....
True:" I want to find a team but I fear it will be too difficult to meet people close enough to reliably work with."....but there are a lot of idiots out there like yourself...it's just tough to find reliable idiots willing to waste a lot of time and money to drive in circles all day, breathing exhaust, covered in grease, sweaty, driving a loud piece of junk at unsafe speeds...
Seems to me, there are a lot of people who are "initially" very interested and committed, who later come to terms with reality, and lose interest....
But don't let me dampen your excitement...! Shoot me an email and we could talk further....I'd be happy to help you get started so you can make it to the track with Lemons, one way or another...in fact, I could often use a spare pair of hands...although currently I have a full crew of reliable drivers.
Good luck!
Mike Z

MarioKart Driving School: 1987 Honda Prelude Si (Opus #28) 
Loudon, NH 2014 - Millville, NJ, Lightening 2019 (RIP)
New and improved: 1987 Honda Prelude Si (Opus #11) Pittsburgh, PA 2021 - ??
and finally won something, Class C Win: Loudon, NH 2022

Re: Getting Started The Right Way

Most important thing to keep in mind: it's not worth going through the effort if you're not going to read the rules back to front 3 or 4 times through. They're not that long, and it can be sort of mind numbing, but it's not worth building a car only to find out that you need an extra bar put in at the track, or you missed something about where the fuel lines can be routed.

Owner of the Knights Templar Neon
A&D of middling proportions

Re: Getting Started The Right Way

My team dove in with absolutely 0 wheel to wheel racing experience, and didn't even find the Lemons forum until after our first race.

We based our build off of the rules and the "how not to fail tech" guide.   We read the rules, we read them again, and then one more time when our build was almost done just to be sure.   When we got there we just ad to add some gussets, and few other minor changes, and passed tech easily.

Our first race was in NH at the hooptie fest.  We towed from NJ.  It was insane, and awesome.    and we didn't even die, wreck, or 'splode.   

Just take your time on your build,  follow the guides, and ask for help here.  100% sure you won't be the only first timers on the track when you get there.    Just make sure you have good mirror coverage, and drive to survive for your first event.  Don't pretend you're going to win.

The Roto-Racer '89 Merkur:  If it ain't rusting, It ain't racing.

'14 Real Hoopties of NJ: Judges Choice

Re: Getting Started The Right Way

Drdanteiii wrote:

Don't pretend you're going to win.

My late friend Bob Peckham was a die-hard SCCA racer with a Type A personality.
His attitude was that if he wasn't winning, it wasn't fun.

Lemons is the opposite.   If you are having fun, you are winning!   Keep that in mind and you will win too.

"I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!"
IOE winner in the Super Snipe -- Buttonwillow 2012
IOE winner in Super Snipe v2.0 -- Buttonwillow 2016
"Every Super Snipe in Lemons has won an IOE!"

Re: Getting Started The Right Way

Drdanteiii wrote:

We read the rules, we read them again, and then one more time when our build was almost done just to be sure.

My advice is to print one extra copy of the rules devoted to a single purpose: it remains with the car and, as each item in the rules is fulfilled, that portion is inked out with a chisel-tip Sharpie. Don't fool yourself by striking out something you've "almost finished" or "intend to finish" or "will remember to finish later." The words stay visible until that requirement is really, truly met. I've found it helps.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally

Re: Getting Started The Right Way

Drdanteiii wrote:

......and didn't even find the Lemons forum until after our first race.

Ha!  Same story with us.   Didn't find the Yahoo group or forum until after the car was built.  Probably would have altered our approach and car choice had we done so.  But we did have the rules and even though I had never overseen a cage being built in a road race car still had enough knowledge gained from the Lemons rulebook to have the cage builder re-do the harness bar before the first race.  The rulebook is pretty black/white and will steer you in the correct direction to get the car built to pass tech.  BS is more grey and the forum is probably the better to place to learn that part but BS won't matter if you don't pass tech so that's where your effort should go.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)