Topic: Nothing to see here. Just another dive-bomb by an E36.

Our team had a pretty good outing this race: great neighbors, fairly clean racing (one black on Sat that was our fault), and aside from a differential we can't seem to get to turn right were pretty happy with the car. Finished 21 out of 170 although probably would have finished around 16th if I didn't get punted at the busstop by a dive-bomby E36. You can see they go straight into their pits after the contact and I don't believe they reported. The contact was minor enough the judges thought I just spun. No big deal but no apology either. Oh well. Good to see you all out there and hope to see you in March.
https://youtu.be/1qBOfWLiwZw

Re: Nothing to see here. Just another dive-bomb by an E36.

Just playing devils advocate but from the video you could say that your driver closed the door on them pretty hard and did not give them any space.  They go from the left side of the track to almost the rumble strips on the right side so any car coming in on the "inside" would not have any space to avoid hitting your car.  Sorry you got hit and I am glad you were able to make it back out on to the track.

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Re: Nothing to see here. Just another dive-bomb by an E36.

I can't remember a Lemons race where I was able to take the optimum line through the bus stop.  Because of traffic, I've always had to treat the bus stop as a "two lane" corner.  If you are setup on the outside going into the corner, you are in the "outside" lane.  If you are setup on the inside at entry, you are in the "inside" line.

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Re: Nothing to see here. Just another dive-bomb by an E36.

That camera angle does not show that the E36 did anything wrong.

Maybe they did.... But without seeing the whole situation, it's impossible to place blame.

#928 Porsche 928 - West German Pushrodders

Re: Nothing to see here. Just another dive-bomb by an E36.

I appreciate the devil's advocacy. I was driving during this event and I think we all know the Lemons line and racing line are drastically different. I also agree going through here two and three wide is somewhat normal. However, in this instance the BMW was trailing deeper and must have stuck its nose in almost into my turn in. I saw the rabbit braking later and let it through to tuck in behind. The old adage that their front wheel must line up with our front wheel to establish position doesn't always happen in Lemons and I error on the side of caution to avoid contact as much as possible. Unless my memory has completely failed me the BMW was way to late/aggressive to try and establish inside. I'm happy to retract my comments if another angle shows different but I don't think that's the case. Also - I go through the bus stop solo probably 15% of the time when the traffic happens to allow it.

Re: Nothing to see here. Just another dive-bomb by an E36.

The old adage that their front wheel must line up with our front wheel to establish position doesn't always happen in Lemons

Never happens.  If that is your requirement for giving room on the inside, you are going to have a bad time at Lemons.  If you think there might be a car on the inside/outside/whereever or there might be a car going to the inside/outside/whereever before you get there, you yield the space.  I heard no locking of brakes so unless there is another view of this contact that shows that you didn't cut him off, it looks like you cut him off.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

7 (edited by VanillaHaze 2017-12-06 10:52 AM)

Re: Nothing to see here. Just another dive-bomb by an E36.

I'm of the opinion that it's the passing car's responsibility to make the pass cleanly because they can see the whole situation without having to look in the mirror. I couldn't see the BMW in the video, so I think it's fair to assume that the driver here might not have seen them making a move. However, the BMW knew where this car was the whole time. If you assume that somebody ahead of you is going to leave you room, you're going to have a bad day. Wait a few corners until there isn't a question.

I have found that the safest way to make passes is to assume that nobody on track even has a rear view mirror.

Re: Nothing to see here. Just another dive-bomb by an E36.

VanillaHaze wrote:

I'm of the opinion that it's the passing car's responsibility to make the pass cleanly because they can see the whole situation without having to look in the mirror.

I have found that the safest way to make passes is to assume that nobody on track even has a rear view mirror.

Correct, but in Lemons you also have to always assume that the car behind you will stick it's nose in.

It's impossible to say from this camera angle that the other car didn't have a right to put his nose there, but even if he didn't, camera car is still responsible for not noticing and turning in.

Except for that crash with the E30 and the Datsun in the hairpin, it almost always takes two to tango. Right or wrong is irrelevant; if there was something you could have done to avoid a crash, and you didn't, then you share responsibility in the bent sheet metal.

#928 Porsche 928 - West German Pushrodders

Re: Nothing to see here. Just another dive-bomb by an E36.

If I were the camera car, there's no way I'd have taken that turn that way knowing there was a car I'd just passed and was "racing" . Not so much because I wouldn't want to block them from retaking me there, but because I wouldn't want to have happen what DID happen.

Doesn't matter whose fault it is or whose responsibility it is to pass cleanly-- it's my car that gets hit and it may or may not put me or someone else out of the race.

I'm not saying the driver of the camera car is "wrong". And I'm not saying the driver of the E36 is "wrong." I'm just saying I personally wouldn't / don't generally drive that way. And I'm not saying my way is "right" either. I just don't like to put that much trust in the cars/drivers around me.

Re: Nothing to see here. Just another dive-bomb by an E36.

VanillaHaze wrote:

If you assume that somebody ahead of you is going to leave you room, you're going to have a bad day. Wait a few corners until there isn't a question.

I have found that the safest way to make passes is to assume that nobody on track even has a rear view mirror.

This. I assume this attitude...especially with new drivers who are not monitoring their mirrors as much as experienced drivers when making passes. Granted I am slower because I don't push passing in the esses or going into turn 2 and 3 but its a safer way around the track. I'm surprised that so many folks think its NOT the passing driver's responsibility to avoid contact.

Re: Nothing to see here. Just another dive-bomb by an E36.

CrownNeverVictorious wrote:

I'm surprised that so many folks think its NOT the passing driver's responsibility to avoid contact.

I don't think anyone said this at all.  People are saying that it's everyone's responsibility, including the car that is being passed, to avoid contact. 

As the car being passed there is a 100% chance that during the pass that you can initiate contact with the passing car by driving into them.  Don't do that.  It appears that your thinking is "his car was not up to my front wheel and it's the passing cars responsibility to avoid contact, therefore I can drive to the apex and he must avoid me."  We can all see how that turned out.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: Nothing to see here. Just another dive-bomb by an E36.

BTW getting their front wheel to your front wheel is a crock.

If the trailing car has any overlap whatsoever, you'd better leave room or you're asking for trouble.

#928 Porsche 928 - West German Pushrodders

Re: Nothing to see here. Just another dive-bomb by an E36.

RobL wrote:
CrownNeverVictorious wrote:

I'm surprised that so many folks think its NOT the passing driver's responsibility to avoid contact.

I don't think anyone said this at all.  People are saying that it's everyone's responsibility, including the car that is being passed, to avoid contact. 

As the car being passed there is a 100% chance that during the pass that you can initiate contact with the passing car by driving into them.  Don't do that.  It appears that your thinking is "his car was not up to my front wheel and it's the passing cars responsibility to avoid contact, therefore I can drive to the apex and he must avoid me."  We can all see how that turned out.

I agree with this sentiment 100% but unless my memory has totally failed he was way behind me through the esses and at least a car or two behind me coming into the bus stop as the rabbit had just passed him. I'm hoping one of the trailing cars with video can chime in here...anyone know the kia pet, datsun roadster, or 991 car? Sadly we were pitted next to the white and yellow miata that was trailing but I don't have their info.

Re: Nothing to see here. Just another dive-bomb by an E36.

Lets just for a minute assume you are "in the right.  Now that you have been blessed with that affirmation, what does that buy you?  Lemons is still no fault and you'd still get black flagged.  And proof of being in the right still puts you in the penalty box.  Alternatively as others point out, leaving room in those turns known to be bad gets everyone on their merry way.  If the other guy had come smoking in there with all 4 wheels locked up from 100 yards back, I'll admit you then have tough choices to make but I didnt hear any of that here.  My suggestion is if there is any doubt, leave room.

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Re: Nothing to see here. Just another dive-bomb by an E36.

RobL wrote:
CrownNeverVictorious wrote:

I'm surprised that so many folks think its NOT the passing driver's responsibility to avoid contact.

I don't think anyone said this at all.  People are saying that it's everyone's responsibility, including the car that is being passed, to avoid contact. 

As the car being passed there is a 100% chance that during the pass that you can initiate contact with the passing car by driving into them.  Don't do that.  It appears that your thinking is "his car was not up to my front wheel and it's the passing cars responsibility to avoid contact, therefore I can drive to the apex and he must avoid me."  We can all see how that turned out.

The way I see it is if I know you're there, I'll leave you room. However, that is contingent on knowing that you're there. You can only spend so much time looking at your mirrors at the guy behind you, but you can always see the guy ahead of you.

The way I see it is that if my bumper isn't at least to the car ahead of me's wheel, I assume he can't see me there even if he know's I'm behind/around him. Managing this distance is easy for me in the following car. On the other hand, to ask the car ahead to manage distance for me means taking their eyes off of the road ahead a lot which can lead to new dangerous situations.

Re: Nothing to see here. Just another dive-bomb by an E36.

VanillaHaze wrote:

 

The way I see it is if I know you're there, I'll leave you room. However, that is contingent on knowing that you're there. You can only spend so much time looking at your mirrors at the guy behind you, but you can always see the guy ahead of you.

The way I see it is that if my bumper isn't at least to the car ahead of me's wheel, I assume he can't see me there even if he know's I'm behind/around him. Managing this distance is easy for me in the following car. On the other hand, to ask the car ahead to manage distance for me means taking their eyes off of the road ahead a lot which can lead to new dangerous situations.


AMEN.

Re: Nothing to see here. Just another dive-bomb by an E36.

And here's a little irony. While browsing through video I found the exact situation with the same car only reversed from Saturday...I was coming up inside and held off through the bus stop and made room going through 10. What are the odds. Ha. 
https://youtu.be/fm8f0ApRFzQ

18 (edited by VKZ24 2017-12-07 06:59 AM)

Re: Nothing to see here. Just another dive-bomb by an E36.

CrownNeverVictorious wrote:

And here's a little irony. While browsing through video I found the exact situation with the same car only reversed from Saturday...I was coming up inside and held off through the bus stop and made room going through 10. What are the odds. Ha. 
https://youtu.be/fm8f0ApRFzQ

From watching that video, that looks like one of the cars I would try to avoid.  I call those the "I'm going for the apex no matter what" cars.  In my region, that's usually the big cars like a Crown Vic or Impala, but not always.  If I were you, I "assume* that car would clip my nose, even if I was right beside him. Since he seems to be of a similar speed, I'd use the old pick-n-roll to get by him safely.

I would like to see video from the other car in reference to your first post though.

Captain
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Re: Nothing to see here. Just another dive-bomb by an E36.

I like how at about 2:00 Eyesore backed off, waited, and got a safe clean pass a few seconds later. I wonder why they win.

20 (edited by CPB 2017-12-08 07:00 AM)

Re: Nothing to see here. Just another dive-bomb by an E36.

Always thought it was a dual fault environment out there. Up to everyone to drive around in circles without touching.

Our car is extremely low horsepower, but is light and corners great. I've been in the position of having to try to pass in braking zones like what seems to have happened here, but often the car I am passing cannot see us (no wink mirror) or doesn't care to allow 2 lines through a corner. A few cars I will see and know to trust, but most seem not to notice the fast cornering car that wants through.

What I've started doing more is trying to give a bit more gap to the lead car and get a run on them by getting a clean corner on my own. Takes more time though as even with a run many cars can beat the trap speed on the straight with HP.


We've never had a car to car contact, but one thing I ask myself and our drivers when an incident/flag happens is, "What could you have done to prevent it?" If they don't have an answer, that's a red flag for me. I'm disappointed, but usually that indicates time for a driver swap and refuel.

Re: Nothing to see here. Just another dive-bomb by an E36.

I thought the white car left enough room on the inside. I've had that happen before when cars go in too fast trying to pass me on the inside and push into me. If I'm going in two wide, then maybe I slow down a bit so I don't run out of room and hit anybody if everything doesn't go right.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: Nothing to see here. Just another dive-bomb by an E36.

This pretty much covers it for all involved:
6.1: It’s Always Your Fault: Lemons is an all-fault environment. You are 100% responsible for what happens while you’re at the wheel. Think you’re the hittee, not the hitter? We don’t care. Think you’ve been wrongly accused? See the part where it says “we don’t care.” Your job is to stay out of trouble. If trouble finds you, take responsibility like a grownup and figure out how to avoid it the next time. This ain’t the damn SCCA.

Re: Nothing to see here. Just another dive-bomb by an E36.

That rule gets quoted a lot, but I don't think that it really covers anything other than who gets black flagged, which is an administrative issue.

While we can say that everyone is at fault; it may not be productive to think that way if we want to reduce future contact incidents. Hitting other cars is serious enough that we really should analyze incidents and weigh in on them. Individual drivers took specific actions that caused an incident, and in this case, playing the blame game can give us some perspective on what happened and why, as well as give us some insights into why people did what they did on track and what needs to change so that doesn't happen as often.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: Nothing to see here. Just another dive-bomb by an E36.

cheseroo wrote:

Lets just for a minute assume you are "in the right.  Now that you have been blessed with that affirmation, what does that buy you?  Lemons is still no fault and you'd still get black flagged.  And proof of being in the right still puts you in the penalty box.  Alternatively as others point out, leaving room in those turns known to be bad gets everyone on their merry way.  If the other guy had come smoking in there with all 4 wheels locked up from 100 yards back, I'll admit you then have tough choices to make but I didnt hear any of that here.  My suggestion is if there is any doubt, leave room.

I grew up sailing in Massachusetts Bay.  Sail boats under sail always have the right of way over power boats.  I asked my Dad one day if that meant we had the right of way over a tanker ship that was approaching.  He gave me the old sailors adage, which I've never forgotten - "You can be right all the way to the bottom".

This has served me well in Lemons.

bs

Re: Nothing to see here. Just another dive-bomb by an E36.

I have nothing to add to the commentary on the incident itself, but I couldn't help but physically cringe at the "easing out into race traffic" after the spin. That was really dangerous. Use more patience on the recovery next time!

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