Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

VKZ24 wrote:
Spank wrote:

The rule that I would like is that every time a particular car with a particular team wins a class or an overall, they get an automatic 1 lap "penalty'. Win 5 overall races and they get 5 bs laps.

I'm all for this except the penalty laps should be much more.  If you are the overall race winner, you should get at least a 10 lap penalty for the next race.

I kinda think that to get things done, it is best to approach with a reward, positive reinforcement strategy, rather than an a punishment, penalty approach. 
So maybe instead of (or in addition to) giving penalty laps (which really should be in intervals of "10"), why not give BONUS laps to the really shitty Class C cars....imagine, an Old Chrysler New Yorker from the 1950s, starting the race in first place with 50 (bonus) laps ahead of everyone else!!!


Inspection: "Wow, that is really a shitty car....we'll put you in Class C, And, give you extra bonus laps!"

MarioKart Driving School: 1987 Honda Prelude Opus #28  (still can't win anything...)

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

billybobster wrote:
nimblemotorsports wrote:

Did I see two corvettes and boxster in sonoma pics?

I do remember going by one of the Corvettes quite handily with my solidly B class driving in our solidly B class car. Everybody looks fast in pictures.

And then, upon further video viewing, I saw that on Sunday the same Corvette blew by me post haste.

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Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

rb92673 wrote:
-SDR- wrote:

My first draft of this post listed a bunch of comments about "A" cars / teams that I have personally overheard at events.  I decided to not post them after all, however, I agree with most of them.

I too would like to see more "C" cars, but at the same time I understand that its hard to justify the time and effort to be put into a pile of junk (for some people, not me, I like junk).  Lemons is a business, and its management has an obligation to be successful as such; I get it.  At the same time they have options to work at staying truer to their roots. It would be great if they can find ways to encourage more "C" cars, and discourage "A" cars.   

Having super fast and super slow cars on the track at the same time is a safety concern for everyone.

The "Curse" kept the all-out races cars out, or at least to a minimum.  MAYBE bringing it back, slightly modified, might help get less "A" cars, and more "C" cars.  Maybe not a "vote" system, but a lottery of "A" class winners?  This would not guarantee a curse at every event, just a RISK of one.  Make it like a one in ten or a one in twenty, maybe change the odds on how many laps done, how close second place was, number of overall wins, stuff like that.

Anyone can build and drive a 'fast' well handling car, but driving fast in a 'slow' car takes talent.

Maybe the curse would be a 20 lap penalty for their next race if they bring the same car.


The other method to dissuade bad behavior that works well, is plain simple SHAME....so why not still take a vote for the car/team that would win the CURSE for the worst driving, and have it announced by Jay at the awards ceremony at the end, so the team could hear all the BOOOOs! and just endure some Public Humility and Shame...

MarioKart Driving School: 1987 Honda Prelude Opus #28  (still can't win anything...)

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

TheEngineer wrote:

Looks at black saab with only numbers that I've raced the last year. Hides.

What's showing here is what always shows up now and then, and it's simply a difference in opinion that comes with having hundreds of people interested in a thing. Everyone has a slightly different vision of what they think this should be. On top of that people's own views shift. I spent years suffering my way though C-class. And it was fun. But honestly? now I want reliability and speed. I've paid my dues to the C-class gods and showing up with a car that can sit top 30 with no effort, and can make top 20 if we push and make no mistakes has been a real joy lately. Building and racing shitty cars is an effort in burn out. It's fun for a little, but eventually you just stop finding joy in wasting a ton on money to come wrench at a race track and not turn laps. It takes new teams to step up and pay their dues to the IOE gods.

I agree completely except:

There are different types of C-class cars...wacky but reliable is also an option and one we choose...the other we developed to that level.

We went from a competitive B-class car to  specializing in IoE and c-class cars....mainly because the more we focused on winning B, the less fun it got.

Developing a car is the process for many of us.  Stock, Trans Sport, add better suspension next race, upgrade brakes the next, convert to manual transmission a few later, etc, etc.  Now it is very competative c-class car and probably more reliable than 70% of the field.

Back to the OP, I think we see a decent percentage of c-class cars in the Midwest but it could always be more.  Like many complaints (speed creep, cheaty LS swaps, etc) these issues seem significantly amplified on the West Coast and to a lesser degree the Northeast races.

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

MZAVARIN wrote:
rb92673 wrote:
-SDR- wrote:

My first draft of this post listed a bunch of comments about "A" cars / teams that I have personally overheard at events.  I decided to not post them after all, however, I agree with most of them.

I too would like to see more "C" cars, but at the same time I understand that its hard to justify the time and effort to be put into a pile of junk (for some people, not me, I like junk).  Lemons is a business, and its management has an obligation to be successful as such; I get it.  At the same time they have options to work at staying truer to their roots. It would be great if they can find ways to encourage more "C" cars, and discourage "A" cars.   

Having super fast and super slow cars on the track at the same time is a safety concern for everyone.

The "Curse" kept the all-out races cars out, or at least to a minimum.  MAYBE bringing it back, slightly modified, might help get less "A" cars, and more "C" cars.  Maybe not a "vote" system, but a lottery of "A" class winners?  This would not guarantee a curse at every event, just a RISK of one.  Make it like a one in ten or a one in twenty, maybe change the odds on how many laps done, how close second place was, number of overall wins, stuff like that.

Anyone can build and drive a 'fast' well handling car, but driving fast in a 'slow' car takes talent.

Maybe the curse would be a 20 lap penalty for their next race if they bring the same car.


The other method to dissuade bad behavior that works well, is plain simple SHAME....so why not still take a vote for the car/team that would win the CURSE for the worst driving, and have it announced by Jay at the awards ceremony at the end, so the team could hear all the BOOOOs! and just endure some Public Humility and Shame...

The problem with that is that they are probably one of the first teams on the trailer headed out the gates while the award ceremony is going on.

56

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

MZAVARIN wrote:
VKZ24 wrote:
Spank wrote:

The rule that I would like is that every time a particular car with a particular team wins a class or an overall, they get an automatic 1 lap "penalty'. Win 5 overall races and they get 5 bs laps.

I'm all for this except the penalty laps should be much more.  If you are the overall race winner, you should get at least a 10 lap penalty for the next race.

I kinda think that to get things done, it is best to approach with a reward, positive reinforcement strategy, rather than an a punishment, penalty approach. 
So maybe instead of (or in addition to) giving penalty laps (which really should be in intervals of "10"), why not give BONUS laps to the really shitty Class C cars....imagine, an Old Chrysler New Yorker from the 1950s, starting the race in first place with 50 (bonus) laps ahead of everyone else!!!


Inspection: "Wow, that is really a shitty car....we'll put you in Class C, And, give you extra bonus laps!"

The problem with bonus laps is that somehow some car will slip through with bonus laps is when someone wins they will say the judges gave them the win because they gave them too many laps.  And every other team in the class will be mad.  While punishing only that team might get mad.

I fully support the 1 lap per win if the car doesn't get upgraded.  I got a penalty lap last race by spank for our cars one win like 5 years ago ended up 3rd in class.  Car has popped between class b and c because of that win with varying amount of laps, and still tends to be one of the slowest fastest laps at every race it is at.   Car is no way competitive in B and only competitive in C cause it tends to be reliable and will run its pace all day and night.  Heck only race I think I had a shot of winning since than was the 24 hour race but I was in B, and there was a lot of weiner stepping on in class C.  Sure I could rip drop in a bigger engine, maybe go through han effort to swap it to rwd or something, but I just can't bring myself to take out the engine and trans since has barely been touched since it left the factory. and just curious how long it will last.

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Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

Why do you guys want to penalize winners? So they don't come back?

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

Suggested at last weekend's race (the week before the snowmageddon race) was to allow only 12 Miatas and E30's combined. If more show up, put them all in the Thunder Dome and let the 12 who survive race.

I'm still trying to imagine what a Lemons Thunder Dome would look like.

Mike

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

Mr.Yuck wrote:

Why do you guys want to penalize winners? So they don't come back?

Continue to challenge them. I call it Piss-in-Wind Track-onomics"

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

There is a mix of "penalize the winners" and "I don't want to win anyway" scattered amongst these posts.  Holding both views simultaneously is interesting, no?

One might notice that Jay and Nick downplay overall and class winners.  That is because winning is its own reward.  Folks at the top of A, at least, want to race.  They don't want to have a "win" handed to them when enough of their competitors are penalized into hopeless positions.  Everyone out there has the same chance to win.  We all have the same rule book.  It is what teams do within those rules, in the garage, in the pits, and on the track that helps determine the winner.  Skewing the odds with balance-of-performance-style penalties demeans the entire process. 

Winning isn't supposed to be easy.  The dominant teams just make it look that way.

I totally get that not everyone at a Lemons race wants to actually race.  That's cool.  Seriously, I wouldn't want it any other way.  There's a Lemons for everyone.  But advocating rule changes that diminish the enjoyment other folks get from their version of Lemons is just kind of small, if you ask me.  Which you didn't.

Now time for a mini-rant.  If there's one thing I really dislike about the Lemons community it is this weird "trying hard is bad" ethos that sometimes creeps in.  I mean, what the hell?  To me there is little more LeMony than showing up with an abject piece of shit and going out there in a quixotic attempt to win the stupid race with it.  We should all strive to do the best we can with what we have.  Be it a class-A turd or a class-C turd, we should all polish it to the best of our abilities.  Whatever your goal, pursue it con huevos, celebrate your victories and learn from your failures.

Disclaimers: I've driven cars in all four classes, but most of my seat time was in A.  Winning is fun, but having fun is more fun.  I'd be hard pressed to say which car I enjoyed the most, though making outside passes on BMWs in the 808 truck has to be way up there.  I also no longer have a dog in this hunt, as I am pretty sure I am "retired".

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

hoverducky wrote:

There is a mix of "penalize the winners" and "I don't want to win anyway" scattered amongst these posts.  Holding both views simultaneously is interesting, no?

No. While smart A classer's understand its in pit and planning where you win, there's also the brute force A class competitors who have cranked the track Delta up to a scary amount. They don't run Trans Am and Spec miata in the same heat for a reason. Some of these cars are closing at speeds fast enough to make depth perception pop a problem. Higher Track Delta means more and stricter insurance rules.



hoverducky wrote:

Now time for a mini-rant.  If there's one thing I really dislike about the Lemons community it is this weird "trying hard is bad" ethos that sometimes creeps in.  I mean, what the hell?  To me there is little more LeMony than showing up with an abject piece of shit and going out there in a quixotic attempt to win the stupid race with it.  We should all strive to do the best we can with what we have.  Be it a class-A turd or a class-C turd, we should all polish it to the best of our abilities.  Whatever your goal, pursue it con huevos, celebrate your victories and learn from your failures.

There's people Trying Hard (fine whatever)
And then there's "TRY HARDS"
Nobody likes TRY HARDS. They have a tendency to make other people around them's life more difficult while simultaneously not actually achieving anything. (*cough* Dorks on the bleedey cheap radios talking all weekend non stop at Gingerman Spring last year gumming up the whole spectrum *cough*)

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Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

In general I don't think most in the series are malicious against the teams that tend to win a lot. It's more the desire to see competition at the top, the same desire we have watching the top levels of motorsport. When you have a team, or a couple teams that seem to dominate a region, the more we'll want to see genuine competition for the overall win. The calls for automatic laps for winners are born out of that, or so I'd like to believe.

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Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

There are Class C cars that just want to race, but when they are rewarded for finally getting it right for one sole event they get bumped to Class B. Class B cars who win get bumped to Class A. SOMETIMES the B and C winners get another chance to compete in the class they previously won but with any number of penalty laps. Why? Because HQ doesn't want to see a team dominate the class. Not my words, but words spoken by those in power.

Class A cars that win aren't allowed to get laps? Or they can't bumped to X class where they can't win the A class anymore, but they can win X all they want? Oh wait, X class isn't /wasn't fair. What was the argument for that again? Oh right: don't penalize the fast cars /drivers / teams and the ingenious builders who work within a given ruleset.

If winning is it's own reward, let's bump all A class winners to the next class: Class X, where there is no prize money and there is no trophy, but you can win X for the reward of winning X and maybe overall.

There, that's easy. And No penalty laps! But A winners get rewarded by being bumped to Class X. Or they can bribe to be put in Class A with laps. Just like the B and C winners.

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

Why can't someone dominate?  If they are the best, then why can't they be recognized as the best.   

I didn't think  winning was very important, the nickels aren't enough to be any real motivation imo.

In fact, I thought second place actually got a better reward, but that isn't the case...but maybe it should be?  Or third place.   smile

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

<Insert various quotes here but I am lazy.>

Penalizing successful teams doesn't reduce track delta.  That should be obvious.  Unless it drives them out of the series.  It does tend to cause good teams to behave poorly, however, which can be hilarious but also relatively dangerous if that's the sort of thing you are worried about.

I've actually raced Spec Miatas in enduros with GT1 (Trans Am) cars.  And prototypes.  It isn't that bad, honestly.

Class C and B cars being bumped is, in my opinion, a problem.  It should not be emulated in class A.  But it is impossible to know if a team won in class despite the car being slow and shitty or because it was improperly classed.  I mean it is impossible under the current ruleset without doing lap time analysis and other shit that just won't happen.  And no, I don't think changing the rules to define the classes is a good idea.  Also, as far as I know the auto-reclassing isn't a rule, it is just a thing that started happening at some point.

And here's where my point was missed: winning is its own reward, but being _given_ a win is no reward at all.

Class X was the ultimate example of demeaning competition at the top.  By placing cars in an exhibition class Lemons was saying "yeah, show up and run, but you aren't racing anymore and we won't even try to enforce the rules where you are concerned".  No competition means no racing.  No racing means that racers won't be interested.  Ask Alex why he left.

Not only does that ruin the fun for the teams in question, it diminishes it for the teams that would otherwise be competing against them.  I was pissed when Eyesore got Xed because it took them out of competition.  Yeah, you could pretend that they were still contending for overall or whatever, but that isn't how psychology works. 

What's the motive for moving the overall winners out of competition, either through laps or reclassing?  How does that improve the series for anyone?  Makes for a better "show"?  Nobody is watching.  The only thing I can think of is, and this was mentioned above, is that it gives other teams a "chance".  At a meaningless win.  No participation ribbons for me, thanks.  I'd rather place second on the track in a heads-up race than get a P1 because a better team was arbitrarily penalized out of contention.  I would wager that many who feel otherwise are the same folks who will cheat to win, and why help those guys out?

There are already race series where a person can show up and run and win a championship due to lack of competition.  The racing world doesn't need another venue for easy wins.

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

hoverducky wrote:

<Insert various quotes here but I am lazy.>

Penalizing successful teams doesn't reduce track delta.  That should be obvious.  Unless it drives them out of the series.  It does tend to cause good teams to behave poorly, however, which can be hilarious but also relatively dangerous if that's the sort of thing you are worried about.

Save the Ta-Ta's was encouraged in order to keep running their current car they had to do something nuts. Now they have an F-body frame under an old ugly Caddy body. It slowed them down and was cool. Once it shakes out they will probably STILL win A with a slower lap time because as always, it's not about lap time.

And as for TA1 and Spec Miata, those were half Pro-drivers, half race licensed drivers. And still seems worrisome. Lemons is literally "Do you have $50 and a valid drivers license?"

In all likelihood this just needs to come down to the judges discretion not more rules. The Judges and Organizers know cars that are getting too fast. And they did already pull $100 out of A wins. But a lot of teams just donate the winnings anyways because Nickels R Dumb, so it's not about payout. So it's presumably just differentiating between well run teams and needlessly fast cars. Speedycop showed a good team can win any class they want regardless of the car's lap time. (although B class is a super hard target to not break out of)

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Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

The diversity in Lemons is what makes it great. Those who are out there just turning parade laps, and those who are "trying" for the win. We maintain a fleet of both class A and C cars, to get the full experience. C makes for a far more relaxed and enjoyable weekend, but stressing for class/overall can be fun in its own way. (usually after the fact)

Don't change anything.

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68 (edited by Spank 2017-12-10 06:10 PM)

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

I've got not problems against any of the teams I see out there who are winning or have won multiple times. Just in general, I think it would be nice to see laps given out to winners much like a handicapping system in golf, or like when a team is up by an insurmountable number of points and the second stringers get a chance to compete.

Something transformational happens once a team or person "wins", even if they are "handed it" or whatever you want to call it. Once you learn to win, you don't really unlearn it.

I don't think a 1-lap per win written into the rules for a team running the same car is that big of a deal and I think it would help more teams than it would hurt: The good of the many outweighs the good of the few. Or something like that.

As for Alex, He wouldn't race when the X Class was out, but he certainly had no objections working for "The Man" during that same period. In my eyes, that killed any standing he may have had in opposition to X class.

But just so I'm not misunderstood: It Ain't Broken so there's nothing to Fix. But if we're discussing druthers and tweeking, that's just something that might be an interesting tweek to help others maybe get to experience their own 15min.

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

I always liked the "Don't take this too seriously" attitude that prevailed when I first got involved in Lemons.  It's a bit disheartening when we spend a tremendous amount of time and effort on theming our car and "cheating" a little bit.  Yet we are placed in the same class with cars that have little or no theme with full coilover suspensions.  Speed creep is going to happen.  If you want to run coilovers all the more power to ya.  I just wish you'd put some effort into the theme as well.  3PM does a great job of balancing both performance and theme.

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Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

Eyesore did too.

I'm really more moved to penalize no theme than Class A winning. Seriously even a paint job with cheap acrylics.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
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Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

Spank wrote:
Mr.Yuck wrote:

Why do you guys want to penalize winners? So they don't come back?

Continue to challenge them. I call it Piss-in-Wind Track-onomics"

It isn't a challenge it basically takes them out of competition. A challenge would be making them start at the back of the pack, like they do at circle tracks when one driver seems to have it all sorted out.  If you want to compete make your car better.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

https://i.imgur.com/a26tk8J.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/RL0xU1daTlMoE/giphy.gif

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

As I said earlier, and others have touched on, I feel like the mechanism is in place to address most of these issues.  The closer your car falls to the top of the Class A spectrum, the better the theme should be, or else you don't get in the race.  I thought this is the whole point of themes in Lemons (from an organizers perspective) was to provide some sort of governor for ultra serious fast car teams.  A team entering a fully sorted out e36 m3 better have one hell of a theme, costumes and all.  A team with a bone stock Corvair gets in no matter what.  I feel like these races have plenty of entries to accommodate this.  My guess is that nobody at Lemons HQ has the time to comb through each entry to select who gets in and who doesn't.  I think think the whole lap penalty system for winners will make things really complicated and in the end not make a positive change where forcing a team of super high strung Spec Miata racers to dress in costumes for BS is about as LeMonsy as it gets.

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Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

n0m4d wrote:

As I said earlier, and others have touched on, I feel like the mechanism is in place to address most of these issues.  The closer your car falls to the top of the Class A spectrum, the better the theme should be, or else you don't get in the race.  I thought this is the whole point of themes in Lemons (from an organizers perspective) was to provide some sort of governor for ultra serious fast car teams.  A team entering a fully sorted out e36 m3 better have one hell of a theme, costumes and all.  A team with a bone stock Corvair gets in no matter what.  I feel like these races have plenty of entries to accommodate this.  My guess is that nobody at Lemons HQ has the time to comb through each entry to select who gets in and who doesn't.  I think think the whole lap penalty system for winners will make things really complicated and in the end not make a positive change where forcing a team of super high strung Spec Miata racers to dress in costumes for BS is about as LeMonsy as it gets.


You'd be surprised. Most races don't have a full roster. Sonoma, and a couple of the novelty for the year events fill up. most are like 85% full. Or in the case of Sebring 2014 WAYYYYYYY less full. Jay earned himself the I got Screwed trophy at that race.

The more loaded a race, the less miatas and E30/36 you see on the track. hell the last Summit Point race had like One of each? 

But the goal of Lemons is to let everyone race, just some with a heap of penalty laps.

Judges should, and do, apply penalty laps to TRY HARD A class teams. Sometimes stuff slips through the cracks a bit since there's a heck of a lot of teams out there. But an over rigged car will get noticed at B.S.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
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A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
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75 (edited by Guildenstern 2017-12-11 08:41 PM)

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

Mr.Yuck wrote:
Spank wrote:
Mr.Yuck wrote:

Why do you guys want to penalize winners? So they don't come back?

Continue to challenge them. I call it Piss-in-Wind Track-onomics"

It isn't a challenge it basically takes them out of competition. A challenge would be making them start at the back of the pack, like they do at circle tracks when one driver seems to have it all sorted out.  If you want to compete make your car better.

Except it's an endurance race. Some teams don't even bother lining up for the "grid" and still win fine.

Also there's no back, they just drop the green wherever once the T&S is verified up and running.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
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