Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

Guildenstern wrote:
Mr.Yuck wrote:
Spank wrote:

Continue to challenge them. I call it Piss-in-Wind Track-onomics"

It isn't a challenge it basically takes them out of competition. A challenge would be making them start at the back of the pack, like they do at circle tracks when one driver seems to have it all sorted out.  If you want to compete make your car better.

Except it's an endurance race. Some teams don't even bother lining up for the "grid" and still win fine.

Also there's no back, they just drop the green wherever once the T&S is verified up and running.

If you hit somebody w/ a -10 they aren't going to win.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

77 (edited by rmcdaniels 2017-12-12 06:13 AM)

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

WOO HOO!  I knew our new race car was a good idea, no matter what the rest of the team thought about my sanity and decision-making.

Our theme has always been weak, rattle-can crap on the car and make some beer. For the new car, I free-hand spray painted the numbers right before we sent it to tech. I had a badass Bosozoku theme planned for the Chevette, but then I traded it for a Trabant which Jay won't let me race. Not saying that's a bad decision, but If you can race a Corvette, then you should be able to race a Trabant, they're basically the same car, just the Trabant looks better.

The main reason we are in class C is that I asked Idle Clatter and Mechimike what the most reliable car was because I didn't feel like working on the race car any more. They gave me good advice, straight off of CL, three races, and no problems, but it does move with a glacial majesty. Every time that I pass another car, I get a real sense of accomplishment. My point-by finger did get quite cold at Road Atlanta though. the 87MPH top speed is really not that much on the back straight. I'll need thicker gloves if we do more winter racing.

And what the hell is class X?

Also class E should be free, including driver fees, with reimbursement for travel expenses (a business class limit to air travel for non-driving crew seems reasonable), and 100 bonus laps and a personal chef to prepare our meals all weekend (we'll need vegan options), and professional coaching by famous race car drivers, and a masseuse to help work the kinks out between stints. It'll still probably just be us and we'll lose by a huge margin, but you never know. Actually they'll probably want to put some kind of limited laps completed stipulation in there to keep out the people who aren't serious class E racers like us. Make it 100 laps (on a two-ish mile track), that should be sufficiently difficult that they'll rarely have to make good on any of that stuff.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

78 (edited by Spank 2017-12-12 10:05 AM)

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

Here is what's left of X class

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbj62ZCeSFA

(credit to Alex Vendler for that bit of brilliance)

Old discussion
https://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/view … 79&p=5

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

Vendler's video IS pretty damn funny, particularly if you get the multiple inside references (It's okay Sarah).  At this point, I would be happy to see this discussion come to a conclusion because in reality, 1. nothing will come of it and 2. It just reminds me too much of the chumpcar forum discussions.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

cheseroo wrote:

Vendler's video IS pretty damn funny, particularly if you get the multiple inside references (It's okay Sarah).  At this point, I would be happy to see this discussion come to a conclusion because in reality, 1. nothing will come of it and 2. It just reminds me too much of the chumpcar forum discussions.

FYI its CHAMPcar now...

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

cheseroo wrote:

Vendler's video IS pretty damn funny, particularly if you get the multiple inside references (It's okay Sarah).  At this point, I would be happy to see this discussion come to a conclusion because in reality, 1. nothing will come of it and 2. It just reminds me too much of the chumpcar forum discussions.

+1

Summary:  The rules are fine and we need more northeast events where races are full.

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Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

Mr.Yuck wrote:
Guildenstern wrote:
Mr.Yuck wrote:

It isn't a challenge it basically takes them out of competition. A challenge would be making them start at the back of the pack, like they do at circle tracks when one driver seems to have it all sorted out.  If you want to compete make your car better.

Except it's an endurance race. Some teams don't even bother lining up for the "grid" and still win fine.

Also there's no back, they just drop the green wherever once the T&S is verified up and running.

If you hit somebody w/ a -10 they aren't going to win.

Then they should consider why nobody likes them and gave them a -10

Or figure out how to deduct $100 value out of the car and appeal the judges before the end of the day Friday. Because they may have trouble coming back from -10, but if they have a realistic shot of winning, going to a 400 TW Douglas won't make them less competitive since winning is done in the pits not the track.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

Mr.Yuck wrote:
cheseroo wrote:

Vendler's video IS pretty damn funny, particularly if you get the multiple inside references (It's okay Sarah).  At this point, I would be happy to see this discussion come to a conclusion because in reality, 1. nothing will come of it and 2. It just reminds me too much of the chumpcar forum discussions.

FYI its CHAMPcar now...

Losers. They even un-punned their pun.

But hey, they get to sell everyone all new mandatory stickers.

And do it again when IRL sends them the C&D since they Bought the rights to Champ Car World Series in 08.

Also I fell asleep twice during their "Change" video.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

Apparently, the IRL boys were eager to ditch the Champcar rights and chump obtained it legally.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

85 (edited by Guildenstern 2017-12-13 12:53 AM)

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

cheseroo wrote:

Apparently, the IRL boys were eager to ditch the Champcar rights and chump obtained it legally.

That sounds about right for Chump. Clubs always focus on the priorities.

Their URL's still say Chump.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

86

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

back to the class thing....

The problem really is that with the spread out of speed between the cars it is difficult to set it up so everyone has some sort of chance to win something.  Being that any of the class wins gives you less than the entry fee it really doesn't matter that much about winning.  When you tell someone you win and show them what you won in they no longer care, so no fame no fortune.  However it does make things a bit more exciting when you may actually have the chance to win something.

So we can make a million classes and everyone can walk away saying they are a winner.  This of course negates the excitement of racing to win.  Also would result in no prize money or raising the amount of entries to cover all the cash being given out.  So everyone wins $500 but the entry fee goes up $500.

The current system of bumping people when they win ends up making the car bumped either have to radically redo it or the car becomes hopeless in its new class.  This also has lost a bunch of midwest C class teams I used to always have fun racing.  Although it would be difficult for any other C class team to beat the pack of 3 or 4 teams in C even if they all became hopeless in B.

Handicap them with laps so that other teams in the class can potentially win but still give them a chance to win in the class the car is appropriate in.  This of course gets really difficult because you get complaints no matter what you do.  Just read any discussion on BOP in any race series.

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Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

BoB wrote:

The current system of bumping people when they win ends up making the car bumped either have to radically redo it or the car becomes hopeless in its new class.  This also has lost a bunch of midwest C class teams I used to always have fun racing.  Although it would be difficult for any other C class team to beat the pack of 3 or 4 teams in C even if they all became hopeless in B.

Handicap them with laps so that other teams in the class can potentially win but still give them a chance to win in the class the car is appropriate in.  This of course gets really difficult because you get complaints no matter what you do.  Just read any discussion on BOP in any race series.

I've never liked that aspect of it. I understand the mentality of "you've had your turn, now let someone else have a chance", but I still think that handicapping would be better than the current system. I really enjoyed racing the original Duff car in class B and would be happy if I could have continued doing that.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

if you don't want to be bumped from c to b, or b to a, then don't win.  come in second place or third place,
that might be more a challenge, specially if the other guys are also trying to come in second too..   lol

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

It would be like the old days when all the fast cars would sandbag until after the Curse voting was complete.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

Guildenstern wrote:
Mr.Yuck wrote:
Guildenstern wrote:

Except it's an endurance race. Some teams don't even bother lining up for the "grid" and still win fine.

Also there's no back, they just drop the green wherever once the T&S is verified up and running.

If you hit somebody w/ a -10 they aren't going to win.

Then they should consider why nobody likes them and gave them a -10

Or figure out how to deduct $100 value out of the car and appeal the judges before the end of the day Friday. Because they may have trouble coming back from -10, but if they have a realistic shot of winning, going to a 400 TW Douglas won't make them less competitive since winning is done in the pits not the track.

well some people don't care about winning IOE or 1st in show. Some people just come to race and have a good time. A theme is like 4th on  the list of priorities. Many that race Lemons race other leagues. Why? Because we like to race. BUT if you want to win, build a better car don't jack up a team because they are good. They paid their money...Just my $.02

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

Guildenstern wrote:
Mr.Yuck wrote:
cheseroo wrote:

Vendler's video IS pretty damn funny, particularly if you get the multiple inside references (It's okay Sarah).  At this point, I would be happy to see this discussion come to a conclusion because in reality, 1. nothing will come of it and 2. It just reminds me too much of the chumpcar forum discussions.

FYI its CHAMPcar now...

Losers. They even un-punned their pun.

But hey, they get to sell everyone all new mandatory stickers.

And do it again when IRL sends them the C&D since they Bought the rights to Champ Car World Series in 08.

Also I fell asleep twice during their "Change" video.

while I don't understand the name change either. It's still affordable racing. It is also fun and the cars are generally faster, than Lemons...maybe that's why you don't like it I dunno. They also have rights to the name so they can use it as they like. We race there, here and AER next year...  Not really into trophies, just like to get some seat time.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

You can always race, you just can't win too often in the same car. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, it just is what it is.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

Mr.Yuck wrote:

if you want to win, build a better car

And when you've built that better car and start winning, they're going to start tacking on penalty laps to keep you from winning. (or bring back the "X" class) Those BS laps, and the BS attitude from the judges pinning them on you, have driven numerous teams away from Lemons. Granted, I hate seeing the same team with the same guys and car winning every time. (eg. Hong Norrth) But that's not a reason to penalize a team that lucks up and falls backwards into a win. That's both of the Duff Civic wins: Sebring  - no one was there, Barber - the correct half dozen cars broke. That's how Idle Clatter (Planet Express Ship) won at Sebring; they were bumped to B and no longer race that car -- they had to build another one, the Pizza Planet "Toyocedes". I don't have any ideas for a solution, certainly not one that will work for Lemons HQ -- two dozen events per year, 1000-1500 unique teams, 5000+ drivers... I'm surprised Jay (et al.) remembers as many names as he does. (if it weren't for the "electric race car", I doubt he'd remember us.)

And speaking of Hong Norrth and Chump... they won almost every Lemons race. They win most of their WRL races. They DON'T win Chump races. That should tell you the magnitude of the cheatiness of Chump cars. Plus, in the east region, the extreme tolerance (and encouragement -- ask VK about their novice class) of contact. The name change was in response to a bunch of PC/SJW/butt-hurt over the "derogatory" term used to describe the series and it's participants. ("members" now that it's a tax-free non-profit club)

Duff Beer Civic (#128) -- 2014 Sebring - Class B (#1 of 7), 2016 Barber - Class B
1981 Jet Electrica 007 [Plymouth Horizon TC3] (#128) -- Mk.1 - Index of Effluency Eco (IOEe) @ 2016 Lemons South Fall, Mk.2 - Judges' Choice @ 2017 'Shine Country Classic, Mk.3 - Index of Effluency @ 2017 Southern Discomfort

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

I never liked the "Chump" car name, so good for them to change it.  But they should have changed it to "ChimpCar" instead.  smile

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

jfbeam wrote:
Mr.Yuck wrote:

if you want to win, build a better car

And when you've built that better car and start winning, they're going to start tacking on penalty laps to keep you from winning. (or bring back the "X" class) Those BS laps, and the BS attitude from the judges pinning them on you, have driven numerous teams away from Lemons. Granted, I hate seeing the same team with the same guys and car winning every time. (eg. Hong Norrth) But that's not a reason to penalize a team that lucks up and falls backwards into a win. That's both of the Duff Civic wins: Sebring  - no one was there, Barber - the correct half dozen cars broke. That's how Idle Clatter (Planet Express Ship) won at Sebring; they were bumped to B and no longer race that car -- they had to build another one, the Pizza Planet "Toyocedes". I don't have any ideas for a solution, certainly not one that will work for Lemons HQ -- two dozen events per year, 1000-1500 unique teams, 5000+ drivers... I'm surprised Jay (et al.) remembers as many names as he does. (if it weren't for the "electric race car", I doubt he'd remember us.)

And speaking of Hong Norrth and Chump... they won almost every Lemons race. They win most of their WRL races. They DON'T win Chump races. That should tell you the magnitude of the cheatiness of Chump cars. Plus, in the east region, the extreme tolerance (and encouragement -- ask VK about their novice class) of contact. The name change was in response to a bunch of PC/SJW/butt-hurt over the "derogatory" term used to describe the series and it's participants. ("members" now that it's a tax-free non-profit club)

Yea PC/SJW not Typical Club racing types who spun off because Lemons wasn't "Taking itself Seriously enough"

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

Mr.Yuck wrote:
Guildenstern wrote:
Mr.Yuck wrote:

FYI its CHAMPcar now...

Losers. They even un-punned their pun.

But hey, they get to sell everyone all new mandatory stickers.

And do it again when IRL sends them the C&D since they Bought the rights to Champ Car World Series in 08.

Also I fell asleep twice during their "Change" video.

while I don't understand the name change either. It's still affordable racing. It is also fun and the cars are generally faster, than Lemons...maybe that's why you don't like it I dunno. They also have rights to the name so they can use it as they like. We race there, here and AER next year...  Not really into trophies, just like to get some seat time.

I mostly don't like the smashieness of BUMPCar. And the whole SCCA part two attitude.

And the esoteric, too much homework, value rules





And the "If you aren't cheating you aren't racing" bs





And the small turnouts







Did I mention the low rent SCCA vibe?

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

rmcdaniels wrote:

You can always race, you just can't win too often in the same car. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, it just is what it is.

It just looks sad mostly.

Like those people who memorized how to solve a rubik's cube sad.

It's just an unfortunate part about the format. Once you have your paddock down and your car sorted, handicapping the car doesn't really mean anything unless you start putting floats in your fuel cell to limit stint times.

Or again, you cobble an old Cadillac body on your multiple A class winner.

And getting way back on topic. Is there ever gonna be a 2018 rules update?

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

Guildenstern wrote:

Yea PC/SJW not Typical Club racing types who spun off because Lemons wasn't "Taking itself Seriously enough"

The club racers are the PC/SJW nuts forcing the name change. Chump's been around almost as long as Lemons; Condren thought he could run a better race organization, and while he's a good promoter and marketer, his "race organization" was always questionable. (I still don't know how he managed to keep his crash-happy-shit insured.)

Duff Beer Civic (#128) -- 2014 Sebring - Class B (#1 of 7), 2016 Barber - Class B
1981 Jet Electrica 007 [Plymouth Horizon TC3] (#128) -- Mk.1 - Index of Effluency Eco (IOEe) @ 2016 Lemons South Fall, Mk.2 - Judges' Choice @ 2017 'Shine Country Classic, Mk.3 - Index of Effluency @ 2017 Southern Discomfort

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

nimblemotorsports wrote:

I never liked the "Chump" car name, so good for them to change it.  But they should have changed it to "ChimpCar" instead.  smile

Given what the bodywork looks like post race, maybe ChompCar?

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Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

rmcdaniels wrote:

I've never liked that aspect of it. I understand the mentality of "you've had your turn, now let someone else have a chance", but I still think that handicapping would be better than the current system. I really enjoyed racing the original Duff car in class B and would be happy if I could have continued doing that.

It is the problem of figuring out where the line is between fast in one class and slow in the next.  To make matters worse, just running all weekend without black flags most teams will finish in the upper 1/2 so C class cars that run all weekend can finish mid class b, and B class cars will probably finish mid class A.

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