Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

I don't think that C should be synonymous with lack of reliability. Our current C crusader, "Smoky", is the most reliable car out there, actually one of the most reliable cars ever made.

You have to manage what you have. Before we get a car sorted out, we run 600TW all season radials, stock brakes, etc, and just baby it, short stints, keep the revs low, etc. That's the beauty of C, you can do that and still race. Smoky uses $6 brake pads, which last a whole weekend, and burns two gallons of fuel per hour.

I've never been a fan of the policy to move you toward A if you win. It's why the original Duff car is no longer raced, and I love that car. I'd really like to see some kind of handicapping system.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

127 (edited by therood 2017-12-18 07:54 AM)

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

[Glazes over five pages of stuff]

Hey, what's up guys?

I don't know if fire suppression rules are changing, honestly, but if they were, I suspect you'd have heard by now. If you already have a system installed, GREAT. However, do everybody on your team a favor and do two things for me personally (and not as an official Agent of Lemons), please:

(1) Regularly check the system pressure, the fittings/valves, and the lines. The system ain't no good if you pull the handle and you have a kinked line because you didn't notice that you mangled it with a ratchet while reinstalling the shifter that fell out in the middle of the last race. It happens on occasion so don't assume it's in ship-shape because you installed it correctly. Check it when you're wrenching in the garage. Check it when you load up. Check it when you unload. Check it before the race session(s). Check it when you get back to the garage

(2) Practice fire egress (This applies to cars without fire suppression systems, too, obviously). If your car is on fire, the best thing to do always is to exit as quickly as possible. The suppression system's job is mainly to buy you time in case you're trapped in the car*.

Fun fact: A professional driver told me that in 20 years of racing, he's literally never practiced fire egress nor does he know another pro driver who has. That astounded me, but it also reminded me that Lemons tries (and probably succeeds?) in many ways promotes a safety culture not found in many other forms of racing. In other words: Do fire drills (even one or two on Friday before a race weekend) and you're way ahead of professional racers in at least one category.


* Every car is different enough that the fire egress will be unique to the car, but if the egress process can include "Pull the fire-system handle" at the same time you're doing something else (Example: Releasing belt latch), then include it. Otherwise, it should be an "as-needed" step only with the driver familiarizing himself/herself with its location (which should be an obvious, reachable place). TEO may or may not chime in with more info on this, but feel free to ask him or any other safety inspectors at races about it.

[We now return you to regularly scheduled classing/BS judging/bench series management discussions.]

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

at the last race, I was speaking with one of the C teams with the fantastic huge Cadillac, that was quite awesome on the track, and he said he does not think they would bring it back, since he felt that being so big and slow, it was just getting in everyone's way...

sad

MarioKart Driving School: 1987 Honda Prelude Opus #28  (still can't win anything...)

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

Meanwhile on today's Recap Video. A dollar and a bottle of Fireball Cinnamon Glycol gets you an A class win even when asked to actually step up your Lemons game.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata.

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

MZAVARIN wrote:

at the last race, I was speaking with one of the C teams with the fantastic huge Cadillac, that was quite awesome on the track, and he said he does not think they would bring it back, since he felt that being so big and slow, it was just getting in everyone's way...

Driving slow does take a good bit of "skill"... to have the situational awareness and know how to not be in the way everywhere. Points are not so optional. And as we're now driving a "4ton tank", you don't want to argue. I've driving "faster" cars, and know the pain in the ass it can be to get around some slow cars. (oh god, the teenagers in the truck...) So, I make it a point to get people clear of me. Even in the old Duff Civic, I give points to get the faster cars around me.

Short version: in a slow car, you aren't really "racing", so stay the f*** out of the racing line.

Duff Beer Civic (#128) -- 2014 Sebring - Class B (#1 of 7), 2016 Barber - Class B
1981 Jet Electrica 007 [Plymouth Horizon TC3] (#128) -- Mk.1 - Index of Effluency Eco (IOEe) @ 2016 Lemons South Fall, Mk.2 - Judges' Choice @ 2017 'Shine Country Classic, Mk.3 - Index of Effluency @ 2017 Southern Discomfort

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

What jfbeam said. I didn't feel too much in the way at Road Atlanta when I was out there (others may not agree, so chime in if I was), and there's not much finer than seeing a big fat Cadillac wallowing around a race track.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

132

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

jfbeam wrote:

Driving slow does take a good bit of "skill"... to have the situational awareness and know how to not be in the way everywhere. Points are not so optional. And as we're now driving a "4ton tank", you don't want to argue. I've driving "faster" cars, and know the pain in the ass it can be to get around some slow cars. (oh god, the teenagers in the truck...) So, I make it a point to get people clear of me. Even in the old Duff Civic, I give points to get the faster cars around me.


Wow, it's like you are reading my mind.  For anyone racing a slower car, the Duff guys can teach you how it's done.  They are the best, at least in our region, and have never been in the way or held me up.


jfbeam wrote:

Short version: in a slow car, you aren't really "racing", so stay the f*** out of the racing line.

I'd say generally the slower cars get this, but there are a few that don't.  No offense to any of these guys, but in my recent experience, the Astro van is the worst.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

jfbeam wrote:
MZAVARIN wrote:

at the last race, I was speaking with one of the C teams with the fantastic huge Cadillac, that was quite awesome on the track, and he said he does not think they would bring it back, since he felt that being so big and slow, it was just getting in everyone's way...

Driving slow does take a good bit of "skill"... to have the situational awareness and know how to not be in the way everywhere. Points are not so optional. And as we're now driving a "4ton tank", you don't want to argue. I've driving "faster" cars, and know the pain in the ass it can be to get around some slow cars. (oh god, the teenagers in the truck...) So, I make it a point to get people clear of me. Even in the old Duff Civic, I give points to get the faster cars around me.

Short version: in a slow car, you aren't really "racing", so stay the f*** out of the racing line.

While that is good advice, I just like people to stay where they are. If you go into a corner tight, stay there, if you are wide stay there. That is why it is a good idea to have a spotter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpZHzZYXhJQ

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

VKZ24 wrote:
jfbeam wrote:

Driving slow does take a good bit of "skill"... to have the situational awareness and know how to not be in the way everywhere. Points are not so optional. And as we're now driving a "4ton tank", you don't want to argue. I've driving "faster" cars, and know the pain in the ass it can be to get around some slow cars. (oh god, the teenagers in the truck...) So, I make it a point to get people clear of me. Even in the old Duff Civic, I give points to get the faster cars around me.

jfbeam wrote:

Wow, it's like you are reading my mind.  For anyone racing a slower car, the Duff guys can teach you how it's done.  They are the best, at least in our region, and have never been in the way or held me up

Short version: in a slow car, you aren't really "racing", so stay the f*** out of the racing line.

I'd say generally the slower cars get this, but there are a few that don't.  No offense to any of these guys, but in my recent experience, the Astro van is the worst.

We have a lot of experience as well and generally get kind comments on our skills.  The dustbuster (not Astro) is quick enough in a straight line to leave certain BMW's in their wake but it is a bit slow turning in...add to that the fact it can out brake more than half the field in the Midwest and it means our guys have to know how and when to "race" verses point.  FYI, all this goes out the window in the wet because...it DOMINATES if our own guys do not step on their wieners.

With '48 Plymouth...we just hugged the right and enjoyed the drive.

.

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

hmmm.....
So it certainly seems like it is a challenge to drive a Class C car professionally and safely, and a great amount of skill to keep it running all weekend with few resources in case of breakdown....
But is it "fun and exciting"? and worth spending $1000 as an A&D....with a higher chance that your car will break down beyond repair than a Class A or B car (in general)?
Is it really that much fun being a good "moving obstacle" on a track....and not really "racing" since there are so few C cars on the track?
It seems like all the faster cars just want the C cars to be good at "staying out of my way" as I speed around them...Like "if they want to bring a slow car, they better know how to stay out of my way, since I want to go fast...."

Seems like with speed creep and a larger discrepancy between the speeds of the cars (which create a dangerous situation), either the slow cars need to speed up or leave, or the fast cars need to slow down or leave.

It does not seems like a good idea to have a large "speed" spread between the fast and slow cars in a racing series.  I know some fast Lemons Class A cars that did not like attending WRL or AER because they were relatively so slow, and only in everyone's way.

I bet a lot of it would come down to money....if it was actually (relatively) a lot cheaper to bring a Class C car, you'd have many more C cars, more "sold out' races, more fun actually "racing" other cars in class C, as opposed to politely staying out of fast cars ways,

(Anyways, I wish everyone in this thread discussion would just come to one of the East coast races, so we could all sit around the campfire of the AlfaRomeo team that brings a huge pasta dinner and Chianti to the race, sip some high end tequila, and shoot the breeze with all the interesting ideas and perspectives....)

z
(confession: I am Class B car and driver)

MarioKart Driving School: 1987 Honda Prelude Opus #28  (still can't win anything...)

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

MZAVARIN wrote:

It seems like all the faster cars just want the C cars to be good at "staying out of my way" as I speed around them...Like "if they want to bring a slow car, they better know how to stay out of my way, since I want to go fast...."

In spirit, maybe, but in reality most drivers know there's a great speed divide. They understand the nature of endurance racing: you aren't going to win in a single lap, but you can certainly lose in one lap. Any car can rapidly become a "slow car" at any point. Not to quote an SCCA handbook, but the person making the pass is responsible for making sure it happens safely, and ensure the car being passed has room to do what they have to do as well. That doesn't always happen; crowding happens across the board, but in my limited class C experience, it happens more to slow cars. People get red misted for a variety of reasons (and "f'ing slow cars" is one of them.) People misjudge what other cars can do. People don't know who's behind the wheel!

I love driving a C car. It takes a lot of attention, but it's such a relaxed drive. The most any of us could take in the Civic is about 2.5hrs in a day. It's work mapping out where everybody is, where they're going to be, planning your line, evaluating all the possible "outs"... Roger drove the 240D almost 7hrs Saturday. And I drove for 4hrs on Sunday -- and I only got out because I had to drive the mess 6hrs back to Raleigh. I'm not out there fighting for position. I'm fighting myself to keep as much speed as possible.

Duff Beer Civic (#128) -- 2014 Sebring - Class B (#1 of 7), 2016 Barber - Class B
1981 Jet Electrica 007 [Plymouth Horizon TC3] (#128) -- Mk.1 - Index of Effluency Eco (IOEe) @ 2016 Lemons South Fall, Mk.2 - Judges' Choice @ 2017 'Shine Country Classic, Mk.3 - Index of Effluency @ 2017 Southern Discomfort

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

MZAVARIN wrote:

hmmm.....
So it certainly seems like it is a challenge to drive a Class C car professionally and safely, and a great amount of skill to keep it running all weekend with few resources in case of breakdown....
But is it "fun and exciting"? and worth spending $1000 as an A&D....with a higher chance that your car will break down beyond repair than a Class A or B car (in general)?
Is it really that much fun being a good "moving obstacle" on a track....and not really "racing" since there are so few C cars on the track?
It seems like all the faster cars just want the C cars to be good at "staying out of my way" as I speed around them...Like "if they want to bring a slow car, they better know how to stay out of my way, since I want to go fast...."

Seems like with speed creep and a larger discrepancy between the speeds of the cars (which create a dangerous situation), either the slow cars need to speed up or leave, or the fast cars need to slow down or leave.

It does not seems like a good idea to have a large "speed" spread between the fast and slow cars in a racing series.  I know some fast Lemons Class A cars that did not like attending WRL or AER because they were relatively so slow, and only in everyone's way.

I bet a lot of it would come down to money....if it was actually (relatively) a lot cheaper to bring a Class C car, you'd have many more C cars, more "sold out' races, more fun actually "racing" other cars in class C, as opposed to politely staying out of fast cars ways,

(Anyways, I wish everyone in this thread discussion would just come to one of the East coast races, so we could all sit around the campfire of the AlfaRomeo team that brings a huge pasta dinner and Chianti to the race, sip some high end tequila, and shoot the breeze with all the interesting ideas and perspectives....)

z
(confession: I am Class B car and driver)

All of this seems to imply that class C cars:

1- aren't fast
2- are run my teams prone to self flagellation
3- finish poorly across the board

As a team that runs two class C cars I can say all of the above CAN be true but is not always.  Our minivan almost always finishes in the top half of the field and often in the top third.  Yet it has not won class C yet so at least 1-2 teams with these rolling chicanes are finishing even higher.  The wrap-ups and features on class C cars from HQ always point out the number of Real Racecars (tm) that they beat and list is usually pretty long and prestigious.

Not saying you have blinders on to only the type of racing you want to do but the post reads that way.  I advise all new teams to makes sure what their goals are in racing and verify that all team members are on board.  For us, we stopped racing our competitive Class B car for IoE and class C contenders because the chase of a class B win was taking some of the fun out of the weekend.  The basic types of motivation break into three major groups and variations on each:

I love hanging our with like-minded idiots, getting track time and driving on a racetrack
We are here for the racing but not at the expense of the whole Lemons experience
We want to win and everything else is noise until we are so far out of contention that we can sit back and enjoy it...or just put the car on the trailer before the awards so we can beat the traffic.

Nothing wrong with any of those attitudes/goals but only if you can appreciate the other types of teams as well.  So enjoy the class B thing and racing as hard as you reasonably can but try to enjoy the extra challenge of the speed differential, variation in drivers' skill and everything else that Lemons brings to the table.  Anything else IS the only case of "doing it wrong" in Lemons.  When you start lamenting all those things that keeps this series different it really is time to start considering moving on to other series.

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

Let me start by saying that racing is fun no mater what class you run in.....
Le mans has races within the race.......Lmp1,Lmp2,LM GTE Pro, LM GTE Am all at the same time!.......
This is endurance racing. The most real racing there is.
Breakdowns are probable.
I have run as high as 2nd overall with a late suspension failure that left us in 7th.....with a "B" car!
I have won both B and C.....
I will let you in on a secret.....It has almost nothing to do with out and out speed. Run clean without black flags and breaking and you are in contention a class win.
Fast is fun, but reliable wins these races.
Manny

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

MZAVARIN wrote:

hmmm.....
So it certainly seems like it is a challenge to drive a Class C car professionally and safely, and a great amount of skill to keep it running all weekend with few resources in case of breakdown....
But is it "fun and exciting"? and worth spending $1000 as an A&D....with a higher chance that your car will break down beyond repair than a Class A or B car (in general)?

Where are you spending $1000 to A&D a blow-uppy Class C car? I need to charge more, apparently.

I agree with what OnkelUdo said. There's a race for everyone here, and lots of fun to be had as long as you know what your goals are and can respect that others on the track might have different goals.

That being said, my team is perhaps a little lucky in that our attitude has gotten a little "racier" over time. So when our car won Class C and got moved to B, we didn't mind trying to make it faster and work out a new series of bugs. I know a lot of Class C racers don't feel that way, and I'm not sure that progression will hold for us either if we ever get moved to Class A. I thrive on short-term stress and constrained optimization, but I'm not sure I ever want to take this seriously enough to win overall.

Command Pilot/Flight Director, Escape Velocity Racing
Index of Effluency, Heroic Fix, Class C Trophy, now hopelessly gunning for Class B.
Currently 1-2 vs. Team Fairlylame in the Class of 1964 Championships

140

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

OnkelUdo wrote:
MZAVARIN wrote:

hmmm.....
So it certainly seems like it is a challenge to drive a Class C car professionally and safely, and a great amount of skill to keep it running all weekend with few resources in case of breakdown....
But is it "fun and exciting"? and worth spending $1000 as an A&D....with a higher chance that your car will break down beyond repair than a Class A or B car (in general)?
Is it really that much fun being a good "moving obstacle" on a track....and not really "racing" since there are so few C cars on the track?
It seems like all the faster cars just want the C cars to be good at "staying out of my way" as I speed around them...Like "if they want to bring a slow car, they better know how to stay out of my way, since I want to go fast...."

Seems like with speed creep and a larger discrepancy between the speeds of the cars (which create a dangerous situation), either the slow cars need to speed up or leave, or the fast cars need to slow down or leave.

It does not seems like a good idea to have a large "speed" spread between the fast and slow cars in a racing series.  I know some fast Lemons Class A cars that did not like attending WRL or AER because they were relatively so slow, and only in everyone's way.

I bet a lot of it would come down to money....if it was actually (relatively) a lot cheaper to bring a Class C car, you'd have many more C cars, more "sold out' races, more fun actually "racing" other cars in class C, as opposed to politely staying out of fast cars ways,

(Anyways, I wish everyone in this thread discussion would just come to one of the East coast races, so we could all sit around the campfire of the AlfaRomeo team that brings a huge pasta dinner and Chianti to the race, sip some high end tequila, and shoot the breeze with all the interesting ideas and perspectives....)

z
(confession: I am Class B car and driver)

All of this seems to imply that class C cars:

1- aren't fast
2- are run my teams prone to self flagellation
3- finish poorly across the board

As a team that runs two class C cars I can say all of the above CAN be true but is not always.  Our minivan almost always finishes in the top half of the field and often in the top third.  Yet it has not won class C yet so at least 1-2 teams with these rolling chicanes are finishing even higher.  The wrap-ups and features on class C cars from HQ always point out the number of Real Racecars (tm) that they beat and list is usually pretty long and prestigious.

Not saying you have blinders on to only the type of racing you want to do but the post reads that way.  I advise all new teams to makes sure what their goals are in racing and verify that all team members are on board.  For us, we stopped racing our competitive Class B car for IoE and class C contenders because the chase of a class B win was taking some of the fun out of the weekend.  The basic types of motivation break into three major groups and variations on each:

I love hanging our with like-minded idiots, getting track time and driving on a racetrack
We are here for the racing but not at the expense of the whole Lemons experience
We want to win and everything else is noise until we are so far out of contention that we can sit back and enjoy it...or just put the car on the trailer before the awards so we can beat the traffic.

Nothing wrong with any of those attitudes/goals but only if you can appreciate the other types of teams as well.  So enjoy the class B thing and racing as hard as you reasonably can but try to enjoy the extra challenge of the speed differential, variation in drivers' skill and everything else that Lemons brings to the table.  Anything else IS the only case of "doing it wrong" in Lemons.  When you start lamenting all those things that keeps this series different it really is time to start considering moving on to other series.

Maybe its a region thing.  I'm a midwest racer like OnkelUdo and I have never finished lower than the top half of the field.  I did win once but that finish was in the top 3rd or so meaning my class C car beat a heck of a lot A and B class cars.

As for fun have to say the most fun I've had racing was at the 24 hour race going wheel to wheel for a half dozen laps with OnkelUdos van in the wee hours.  Side by side for lap after lap both catching up to cars to pass and getting passed during that time.  When it was all said and done, neither of us touched each other after all that and neither car had a tire leave the track, although the dustbusters vans brakes were kind of ruined, but they have been upgraded since than.

The other thing is I love hanging and talking with the other C Class teams.  I have yet to find a C class team not there for just fun.  It seems the higher up you go class wise the more teams turn into Real Racers *tm

Racing 4 Nickels - 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
2011 SHOWROOM-SCHLOCK SHOOTOUT  IOE Winner
2012 The Chubba Cheddar Enduro Class C winner
Facebook Page

141

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

MZAVARIN wrote:

hmmm.....
It does not seems like a good idea to have a large "speed" spread between the fast and slow cars in a racing series.  I know some fast Lemons Class A cars that did not like attending WRL or AER because they were relatively so slow, and only in everyone's way.

I bet a lot of it would come down to money....if it was actually (relatively) a lot cheaper to bring a Class C car, you'd have many more C cars, more "sold out' races, more fun actually "racing" other cars in class C, as opposed to politely staying out of fast cars ways,

We've run in WRL a lot and have some 2nd place finishes in GP2 with Frank's blue 240Z car. We were second in GP2 at the last TWS race and lost to a late 80's C5 Corvette that we felt should have been in GP1. However GP3 in WRL is dominated by Miatas typically running faster than GP2. The hot ticket there is a 94 or 95 NA Miata running a 99 head or motor and diff.

I've run in all the classes in Lemons and I do find running slower more challenging to manage traffic.

As far as speed creep goes, overall fast times have not changed much over the years just more cars run them and do so more often. My car has always been a "fast" car but we aren't much faster overall now than we were in 2009.  Our average laps times are closer to our fast lap time.

At Road Atlanta a couple weeks ago we fielded my 240Z and a 240SX. The 240Z was considered to be the faster car but it broke about 10 hours into the race. Ben asked one of the Z drivers to take the 240SX out for his stint. Frank ran Tetanus' fastest lap time in the 240SX, 1:53 I think. Andy also ran a low to mid-1:50. Frank was consistently fast his whole stint probably like 1:56. I would say he was 6 to 8 seconds faster on average than most of the other drivers. Our slow car set our fastest lap time because the driver was used to going faster.

Class C could be a little less expensive than A or B but in the end entry fees are the same and it really depends on the car. Light cars with small motors are more economical regardless of class. The faster you run a car the more fuel, tires and brakes it consumes.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

MZAVARIN wrote:

hmmm.....
So it certainly seems like it is a challenge to drive a Class C car professionally and safely, and a great amount of skill to keep it running all weekend with few resources in case of breakdown....
But is it "fun and exciting"? and worth spending $1000 as an A&D....with a higher chance that your car will break down beyond repair than a Class A or B car (in general)?

Don't believe for a minute that Class C cars are less reliable than Class A or B cars.   In seven years, I have seen just as many Class A & B cars fail.   It is more likely that a first-time car will break down, as opposed to one that has been in several races and had the weak points found and fixed (or has a plentiful supply of spares).

As far as a challenge to drive, yes, it can be.   You have to watch your mirrors and drive accordingly.   If nobody is about to pass me, I will "drive the line" through the turn as best I can.   If I see cars rapidly approaching me from behind, I try and figure out which side they want to be on and get to the other side.   Sometimes the inside, sometimes the outside -- it all depends on the situation.

One of those "situations" happened then I was driving the second-slowest car on the track, and was about to pass the slowest.   This was at Buttonwillow, on the uphill approach to Phil Hill.   The slower car was hugging the far left and I was (slowly) passing it while hugging the right side.   As we crested the hill (which is followed by a sharp right turn), a Class A car came zooming up, threaded the needle between us and turned in directly in front of my nose.   Us two slower cars then made our right turns and we all exited the turn in single file.   Afterwards, the three of us were all laughing and congratulating each other on the beauty of how it worked out -- three abreast going into the turn, single file coming out.   One of my most enjoyable moments on the track.

"I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!"
IOE winner in the Super Snipe -- Buttonwillow 2012
IOE winner in Super Snipe v2.0 -- Buttonwillow 2016
"Every Super Snipe in Lemons has won an IOE!"

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

CowDriver wrote:
MZAVARIN wrote:

hmmm.....
So it certainly seems like it is a challenge to drive a Class C car professionally and safely, and a great amount of skill to keep it running all weekend with few resources in case of breakdown....
But is it "fun and exciting"? and worth spending $1000 as an A&D....with a higher chance that your car will break down beyond repair than a Class A or B car (in general)?

Don't believe for a minute that Class C cars are less reliable than Class A or B cars.   In seven years, I have seen just as many Class A & B cars fail.   It is more likely that a first-time car will break down, as opposed to one that has been in several races and had the weak points found and fixed (or has a plentiful supply of spares).

/agree

It is all relative. We'll go multiple races without any real issues and then a couple of races where things are really bad. As for slow, I've lost count of the number of times we've had people come up to us after the race and say that the Rover was "faster" than they thought.  We don't block people and do our best not to cut people off but its not like the majority of the cars are just whipping by us all the time. Slow is relative because you are really only losing a second here and there. It just adds up over the laps.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1 - needs a theme
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - Organizer's Choice

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

I think that I've done 5 races in the dustbuster in the midwest and south, and I firmly believe that no matter what car you're in you should drive the racing line. This is for two reasons. One, I don't like being on the side that becomes the apex and having to be even slower than necessary to make the turn extra tight and also have to be in the apex. This makes the speed differential significantly greater. Secondly, It makes me less predictable and leads to more weird passes. Nobody is going to hit an open apex at speed and suddenly find me at corner exit and have to do something dumb. I might slow you down a little, but you're going to know where I am because I'll be near the racing line. I say near because I'm not there to hold anybody up and will usually try to leave room to make a pass easy.

As far as classing goes, My only complaint is that I took 6th overall at the last race and still didn't win B. I think that there shouldn't be cars in B that have A class speed but are put in B because of reliability. As it is, it makes sense that winning B should put you in A, because if you manage to win B you are already pretty competitive in A. The core of what I don't like about this is that if you have a car that is several seconds off of A class pace and run a perfect race, you still don't have a good shot at winning against an overall winning car that went to a new team that is determined to be less reliable but happens to have a halfway decent race.

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

jfbeam wrote:

Not to quote an SCCA handbook, but the person making the pass is responsible for making sure it happens safely, and ensure the car being passed has room to do what they have to do as well.

That's fine for SCCA. But remember in Lemons it's ALL FAULT. Both dummies are responsible.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata.

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

Mkotzias wrote:

Let me start by saying that racing is fun no mater what class you run in.....
Le mans has races within the race.......Lmp1,Lmp2,LM GTE Pro, LM GTE Am all at the same time!.......
This is endurance racing. The most real racing there is.
Breakdowns are probable.
I have run as high as 2nd overall with a late suspension failure that left us in 7th.....with a "B" car!
I have won both B and C.....
I will let you in on a secret.....It has almost nothing to do with out and out speed. Run clean without black flags and breaking and you are in contention a class win.
Fast is fun, but reliable wins these races.
Manny

This.

Also keep in mind Lemans is Professional drivers mostly. And we saw a few years ago what happens when you let the unskilled play on a busy and fast track like that.

Lemons is won in the Pits. Fast just means more crashing.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata.

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

BoB wrote:

Maybe its a region thing.  I'm a midwest racer like OnkelUdo and I have never finished lower than the top half of the field.  I did win once but that finish was in the top 3rd or so meaning my class C car beat a heck of a lot A and B class cars.

As for fun have to say the most fun I've had racing was at the 24 hour race going wheel to wheel for a half dozen laps with OnkelUdos van in the wee hours.  Side by side for lap after lap both catching up to cars to pass and getting passed during that time.  When it was all said and done, neither of us touched each other after all that and neither car had a tire leave the track, although the dustbusters vans brakes were kind of ruined, but they have been upgraded since than.

The other thing is I love hanging and talking with the other C Class teams.  I have yet to find a C class team not there for just fun.  It seems the higher up you go class wise the more teams turn into Real Racers *tm

It's definitely a midwest thing. Our crap cars still cost too much here. We can't just discard them. So they get polished and polished and also aren't as clap trap as other regions because the rust always wins before the drive train has really worn itself into the dirt.

Also if the car is readily available in a pull a part, odds are it's still worth too much on the market to be a Lemons car here. (seriously, the kind of GARBAGE that sells for $3,000 here is mind blowing) So we over do race prep since no, we won't be able to just run to Pull-A-Part and the parts stores only cary truck parts mostly.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata.

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

Guildenstern wrote:
jfbeam wrote:

Not to quote an SCCA handbook, but the person making the pass is responsible for making sure it happens safely, and ensure the car being passed has room to do what they have to do as well.

That's fine for SCCA. But remember in Lemons it's ALL FAULT. Both dummies are responsible.

Ok, this sort of thinking really bugs me. The at fault rule serves the same purpose as the whiner eligibility clause; it's there so that you understand that the judges don't care about your woes. However, everybody who ever tries to make a pass should understand that it's their prerogative to make it clean. The passing car can see everything where the sucker can't, and the passing car always has the initiative regarding when the pass happens. This puts them in control of the situation.

This is not a rules of the race thing; it's just the difference between teams that can win and teams that will most likely crash out.

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

I mean it's a rules of all Driving thing. Both parties are responsible for situational awareness and maintaining control of their vehicle.

The Lemons rule is to keep people in the habit of checking their surroundings and being vigilant. And a means of curbing the idiot "Rubbing is racing" mentality people picked up from crap like Days of Thunder.

Basically None of us has any right to be on a race track full of cars going very fast based on our driving merits, so plan accordingly.

SCCA has licensing so there's some common expected performance there.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata.

150 (edited by autoxmike 2018-01-02 06:22 PM)

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

jfBeam wrote:

And speaking of Hong Norrth and Chump... they won almost every Lemons race. They win most of their WRL races. They DON'T win Chump races. That should tell you the magnitude of the cheatiness of Chump cars. Plus, in the east region, the extreme tolerance (and encouragement -- ask VK about their novice class) of contact. The name change was in response to a bunch of PC/SJW/butt-hurt over the "derogatory" term used to describe the series and it's participants. ("members" now that it's a tax-free non-profit club)

Actually we have won overall 3 times in Chump with the <120 hp MX-3s along with a pile of overall podiums in the MX-3s and Supra. Slowish cars can still do well. Driving, strategy, prep and luck still count.

Mike
Hong Norrth
#39 TRON Gray/Orange MX-3, aka "Sumbich"